Rich Man & Lazarus

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
58
0
#61
It does teach a truth. Perhaps instead of just saying I am wrong, please point out anything I wrote and address the error and specifically show my error in thinking. I gave quite a thorough list proofs as to why it is a parable.
1. In no other parable does Jesus name people.
2. Also, Jesus "led captivity captive, triumphing openly; and GAVE GIFTS TO MEN" - - where do you think that was?
3. Heaven? Couldn't be, for He was the first fruits of righteousness - in other words no one who lived and died before Him came to the Father before Him.
 
Last edited:
Sep 7, 2013
183
6
0
#62
1. In no other parable does Jesus name people.
2. Also, Jesus "led captivity captive, triumphing openly; and GAVE GIFTS TO MEN" - - where do you think that was?
3. Heaven? Couldn't be, for He was the first fruits of righteousness - in other words no one who lived and died before Him came to the Father before Him.
1) yes he does. the verse is referred to in the study. all the prophets spoke His words and prophesied after Christ put the Holy Spirit upon them. every inspired word in the Bible is a red word. Jesus is the living word made flesh. He is the creator of all things including every parable. the other place He used name is the parable in question because to say different would be to go against His words. He never spake to the pharisees of the mysteries of His kingdom except in parable.

2) that would be in eph. 4:8. gosh that was an easy question...:p
well if one read this chapter we see in the previous passage that he mentions of giving grace. in v.12 tells us the kind of people he gave it to. v. 13-16 tells us why. but you seem to want to know where He was when this was given or where the disciples were? i will answer both since i am not sure which you are referring. Christ had ascending and sitting at the right hand of the Father. the saints were at shavuot/pentecost when He sent His comforter forth to fill them with His spirit and write His laws upon their hearts.

3) i will assume you are using the word heaven because of my use in the study. i think you have missed the gist of this study. it is a parable that gives a prophetic glimpse of end-times. as the virgins with no oil, as the wheat and tares, as the sheep and goats. i kinda' said that rather plainly. did you not read the whole thing? thus Christ had already ascended and came back since this scripture is imagery of the second coming as is the other prophetic parables i just listed.

however you mentioned first fruits so i am assuming you think that no man had died been resurrected and ascended to God before Jesus, correct? well "first" does not always refer to literal order of things. it also is used to declare preeminence.

pre·em·i·nence
prēˈemənəns/
noun
noun: pre-eminence; plural noun: pre-eminences; noun: preeminence; plural noun: preeminences
1.
the fact of surpassing all others; superiority.
"the region has never regained the economic preeminence that it once enjoyed"
[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
[TD]superiority, supremacy, greatness, excellence, distinction, prominence, predominance, eminence, importance, prestige, stature, fame, renown

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
this is the same manner we use "the first lady". there is fairly clear Biblical indications that one other dead person had been resurrected, ascended to heaven before Jesus. that would be Moses. if you care to discuss that more just let me know and you or i can start a new thread on that particular topic as i am sure many would chime in and derail this thread from OP even more.
 
Feb 5, 2013
387
19
18
#63
the op is nonsense. He is trying to change what was written in the bible. I think he's into JW cult. I have no time for this arrogant cult member.

i agree with danschance.
 
Sep 7, 2013
183
6
0
#64
the op is nonsense. He is trying to change what was written in the bible. I think he's into JW cult. I have no time for this arrogant cult member.

i agree with danschance.
great. please take the time to read it since you took the time to insult it and a entire denomination. when done please show specifically from scripture and logic point for point each area you disagree with and why.
 
Feb 17, 2010
3,620
27
0
#65
KAdam, the answer to your riddle and confused belief is in the Bible..... When the disciples asked Jesus why He uses parables, He said so that the people can understand it better.... And Jesus ALWAYS used the DAILY things the people knew about. Lot of farming, and seed and wheat and food, and wine and stuff the people knew WELL....


Do you think they know about a great gulf between the two holding areas? And about ANGELS that carries some dead ones off. Do you think they knew one was a pleasant place and the other HELL! Do you think they know about the comfort and torment in the afterlife? Nope to all.... This was way beyond the simplicity of a parable... this is an event that WARNS ALL PEOPLE.... It is a confirmation why RICH people CANNOT enter.... there is so much said in this chapter of Luke.... So many OTHER scripture that confirms what Jesus taught.


And these people that Jesus used parables for understood perfectly what Jesus said here.... And also after aparables there is an explaination or Jesus refered to it as the Kingdom is LIkE, or something in that manner. I know this is an event, because there are other places where Jesus teach that the sheep and the goats are ALREADY seperated. And here in luke Abraham says WHY the rich man did not make it... Same as Jesus said.... if you see others live life carefree in riches, remember they already had their reward... Our reward is with God, in heaven, and we also can get ours RIGHT NOW!... how? Read the passage again it is in there!!!!
 
D

danschance

Guest
#66
i think you have missed the gist of this study. it is a parable that gives a prophetic glimpse of end-times. as the virgins with no oil, as the wheat and tares, as the sheep and goats. i kinda' said that rather plainly. did you not read the whole thing? thus Christ had already ascended and came back since this scripture is imagery of the second coming as is the other prophetic parables i just listed.
1) Jesus never used first names in any of His parables.
2) Jesus told parables to teach a kingdom principle.
3) Parables might be about future events but they are never considered to be prophecy.
4) Parables teach a single simple point, not a convoluted mess.
5) Jesus never identified the story of Lazarus and the rich man as a parable.
6) The disciples and early church fathers never taught it was a parable.
7) Parables never include false doctrine. *

The story of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man is never considered a parable except by people who believe in soul sleep or annihilation of the soul at death. They must prove this story is about anything except souls surviving death. SO they attempt to turn it into a bunch of metaphors to destroy the clear intent of this story.



* NOTE: Christian cultists like JW's and SDA's believe the soul expires with the body. Why would Jesus tell a parable of souls surviving death if this is a false concept? Why would Jesus teach something that is not true?

Answer: Because soul sleep is a lie.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
L

Laodicea

Guest
#67
Luke 16:22 KJV
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

What does the Bible say when people are carried away by angels?

Matthew 24:31 KJV
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#68
Wow, talk about taking scripture out of context!
Wow talk about using your own opinion. The texts are clear that people are rewarded when Jesus returns.

Matthew 16:27
(27) for the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and
then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Being in Heaven is not the reward Jesus is speaking of here (Matt 16:27 and Rev. 22:12). The reward Jesus is speaking of will be according to each man's works. Salvation is not based on works! (Please note the scripture below is actual scripture and not my opinion, OK?)



Then you compare apples to oranges when you attempt to post the above scriptures with Matt 25. Matt. 25 is about Judgment day. I really hate how you trifle with scriptures and twist them to fit however you wish. Knit one pearl two, get a bigger hammer to drive that square peg into the round hole..

Now here is food for thought: Why would Jesus talk about spirits in the after life if spirits can not survive death? Why would He tell us a story with false doctrine in it?

Now your buddy KAdamW simply turns it all into a bunch of metaphors by associating one scripture out of context to elements with this story to "prove it is some bizarre convoluted story about moral truths, warning the Jews and some twisted prophetic glimpses (None of his assertions are ever mentioned in scripture about his opinions, btw. They spilled out of his imagination.)

Why would Jesus tell a story that includes false doctrine of spirits surviving death? Isn't that the same as lying?
You have not addressed the texts but have only used your own words to explain them.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#69
Luke 16:22 KJV
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

What does the Bible say when people are carried away by angels?

Matthew 24:31 KJV
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is the same type of logic kadam used. You bring one scripture that has nothing to do with the other except angels might be carrying them. It is called "guilt by association" and here is an example of that: "I know a communist who drives a red car, so therefore everyone driving a red car is a communist".

You might be able to convince yourself with that sort of poor logic, but it won't sway me.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#70
Wow talk about using your own opinion. The texts are clear that people are rewarded when Jesus returns.

Matthew 16:27
(27) for the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and
then he shall reward every man according to his works.



You have not addressed the texts but have only used your own words to explain them.
I addressed some the scriptures kadam posted, but he posted 93 verses and life is too short for me to address each one. I will be happy to address the one you have posted. I addressed this once before.

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. Matt. 16:27
Here is another classic case of SDA lifting a scripture up for discussion and ignoring other verses to somehow prove souls don't survive death. This is judgement day. Those who are alive at this time will be sorted out by angels. Then Jesus will give to each what they deserve.

Notice how this does not mention the dead or a resurrection? This is just another failed attempt to prove some association with that does not exist.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#71
Laodicea or even any SDA member,

Now that I have answered your question, would you answer mine?

Do you believe when Jesus died his soul ceased to exist?

Christians believe at death the spirit of man continues on. Jesus was both God and man. So at His death, according to your church, did His soul cease to exist?

Apparently your prophetess was confused on this issue.

EGW: YES "In him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Men need to understand that Deity suffered and sank under the agonies of Calvary."(Manuscript 44, 1898, and the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary,vol. 7, p. 907).
ANd then a year later she contradicted herself again.
EGW: NO "The Deity did not sink under the agonizing torture of Calvary"(Letter: 1899, quoted in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 5, page 1129).

 
K

Kerry

Guest
#72
Laodicea or even any SDA member,

Now that I have answered your question, would you answer mine?

Do you believe when Jesus died his soul ceased to exist

Christians believe at death the spirit of man continues on. Jesus was both God and man. So at His death, according to your church, did His soul cease to exist?

Apparently your prophetess was confused on this issue.



ANd then a year later she contradicted herself again.

They believe that Michael became Jesus and therefore not God. So your post is irrelevant to them. They believe what a man has told them and never read the word for himself. They are taught not to do so and told not to because they know that their lie will be exposed.
The bible is the most sold book in the world yet SDA's and Mormons are taught not to read it.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#73
They believe that Michael became Jesus and therefore not God. So your post is irrelevant to them. They believe what a man has told them and never read the word for himself. They are taught not to do so and told not to because they know that their lie will be exposed.
The bible is the most sold book in the world yet SDA's and Mormons are taught not to read it.
Kerry... Um, the Jehovah Witness' claim Jesus is Michael, not the SDA. So your answer is irrelevant.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#74
They believe that Michael became Jesus and therefore not God. So your post is irrelevant to them. They believe what a man has told them and never read the word for himself. They are taught not to do so and told not to because they know that their lie will be exposed.
The bible is the most sold book in the world yet SDA's and Mormons are taught not to read it.
It looks like you do not know SDA. We teach Jesus is God. He is the creator not created. We always are taught to use the Bible. Our doctrine is based on the Bible. I am a teacher in church and always use the Bible and teach people to read and study for themselves.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#75
Laodicea or even any SDA member,

Now that I have answered your question, would you answer mine?

Do you believe when Jesus died his soul ceased to exist?

Christians believe at death the spirit of man continues on. Jesus was both God and man. So at His death, according to your church, did His soul cease to exist?

Apparently your prophetess was confused on this issue.



ANd then a year later she contradicted herself again.

When Jesus died the human part of Him died but not the the God part of Him.
 
Sep 26, 2013
138
0
16
#76
great. please take the time to read it since you took the time to insult it and a entire denomination. when done please show specifically from scripture and logic point for point each area you disagree with and why.
Ive heard JWs go on about logic, something they must teach in their meeting places, Logic has nothing to do with faith, logic is earthly sightly and logic will burn away with the fire that will renew this earth, the bible says 2 cor 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight, Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Its Jesus Christ that is Lord, In the NWT bible youl find that Jesus Christ is Lord if you find it, there are some things the NWT bible translators didnt doctor out
The Deity of Christ and the New World Translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses
 
D

danschance

Guest
#77
Ive heard JWs go on about logic, something they must teach in their meeting places, Logic has nothing to do with faith, logic is earthly sightly and logic will burn away with the fire that will renew this earth, the bible says 2 cor 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight, Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Its Jesus Christ that is Lord, In the NWT bible youl find that Jesus Christ is Lord if you find it, there are some things the NWT bible translators didnt doctor out
The Deity of Christ and the New World Translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses
Kadam is not a Jehovah Witness. I think he is SDA.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#78
When Jesus died the human part of Him died but not the the God part of Him.
So you believe the later thing Ellen White said even though it completely contradicts what she said one year earlier. If it were up to me, I would dump her. She says one thing and then another a year later which tells me she has no idea. But if you want to trust a false prophet, that is your business.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#79
To KAdamW, I find your post to be very IRONIC, a fatal,futile, IRONY. BUT, let me commend you on coming to the correct conclusion. I quote your great ending. "Most importantly for those reading it today, it is a reminder for the commissioned individual not to be "highminded", or we might just find ourselves, "cut off" and "thrust out" of the kingdom of God as well" I find this to be a very good conclusion, But your conclusion really didn't came out of your work of trying to prove it was a parable and not a real story. You never proved your teaching of soul sleep. It was IRONIC, you proved our side more than your side . Thank you. It was a good example of wrong headed exegesis. Love to all Hoffco.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#80
I have friends who are SDA and I find them more faithful in teaching true salvation than most Baptist who teach "faith alone". The SDA teach that our works has much to do with our salvation, Jesus taught that if we are not people of good works we will not get to heaven. Anyone who has gray mater between their ears , knows this. Sorry, but this is the truth, Salvation is only for those who Repent of sin, trust in Jesus and Obeys Jesus. Love to all , Hoffco