The Original Pentecostal Movement

willybob · Feb 19, 2017

Greetings presidente; Jonah preached repentance to the Ninevehites for 3 days and nights......Jesus preached in the heart of the earth for 3 days and nights before they finally could stand no more and killed him..He then rose from the tomb 36 hours later on the third day of the feast of unleavened bread. The morning of the 17th day of the first month, very early before the sun rose......The sign to wicked and adulterous generations is to repent....Jonah preached repentance. Jesus said the peoples of Nineveh would rise up in judgement against that wicked generation...After doing all His great miracles by feeding with loaves and a few fish in Copernica and Bethsaida he later returned and upbraided those entire cities because the were still living in sin and repented not..He told them if Sodam and Gomorrah would have seen such miracles they would have repented, but ye repent not...

His last three days Jesus preached repentance in the heart of the earth, "ie" Jerusalem, and in the heart of Jerusalem "ie" the Temple, where He turned over the money changers which were the heart and life blood system from which all the wickedness flowed....He told them repent or perish for the kingdom of God comes NOT with observation (looking for fleshly signs and wonders) all the while the kingdom of God was at hand right before them....On one side of the Temple there was King Herod, on the other side the Pharisees, and in the middle of the Temple Square were the Money Changers the heart of everything for the love of money is the root of all evil.....

Stephen63 · Feb 19, 2017

garee said:

Yes, we do, because God still speaks personally to His people. God isn't limited to speak in the scriptures..... Because God never changes, He's only limited to line up to the the Word as the standard.

Who's to say God can't speak to His people? Is He mute? Does He abide by our traditions?

Imagine the tiny box He'd have to live in.

presidente · Feb 19, 2017

willybob said:

Lot's of stuff here that seems to be reaching. Are you saying Jesus preached to crowds in crowds in Comperia and Bethsaida after His resurrection? When the Jews asked for a sign of His authority to clense the temple in John, He also gave the sign of the resurrection, 'Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.'

There is an issue with your interpretation that you should consider. Jesus said, "If I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you." He also called casting out demons a miracle.

presidente · Feb 19, 2017

garee said:

The book of Revelation is a book. Look at what we read in chapter 1:
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

There is a warning at the end of this book, not to add to this book. If in a church gathering, 'a revelation cometh to another sitting by' and he stands and gives a prophecy, that is not violating this passage.

As Christians, if this happens, we are to obey the admonition of I Thessalonians 5 which teaches us to Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good.

You complain about 'private interpretation', yet your interpretation veers so far from the word on the page. Your quote from Revelation just does not say what you are trying to make it say.

presidente · Feb 19, 2017

garee said:

How about someone who 'goes beyond what is written' by taking verses that say one thing, and using them to promote his own pet doctrines? This verse you quote does not say not to believe a man who says He receives a new revelation. There are certain kinds of revelation that believers can receive. A man can receive a revelation about his ministry or his ministry, for example, like Timothy did. I Corinthians 14 uses the term 'revelation' in connection with prophecy.

The verse you quote is not about receiving a 'new revelation.' It says not to believe someone who says "Here is Christ" or there. Does it bother that the verses you quote to argue for your beliefs do not argue for your beliefs?

Why would a person argue for doctrines that God has not revealed, using scriptures that do not support those arguments?

presidente · Feb 19, 2017

garee said:

garee,

Instead of just making stuff up like this and quoting scriptures that dont' support your viewpoints, why don't you read the Bible to learn what it teaches. You create a false dichotomy here, that signs are for those who rebel. There are different kinds of signs. And signs are 'for' people in different ways. There are signs that are the fulfilment of future prophecies. There are signs that are miracles. Demanding a sign is different from God choosing to do a sign.

An angel gave the shepherds a sign that they would see a baby wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. This was a sign, but it is no indication that they were chosen because they were rebellious. This was different from the wicked and rebellious demanding a sign. And they sign they sought was probably different from the miracle they had just witnessed.

There is certainly no blanket condemnation on those who actually do signs. Moses, Jesus, and the apostles did signs.

More confusion on your part. Jesus told some apostles who wanted first to consume those who had not rejected Him that they did not know what spirit they were of. These apostles were already miracle-workers.

Stick with what the Bible actually says, instead of making these pronouncements.

Who are 'they.' The Samaritans rejected Jesus. The apostles weren't seeking a sign so they could believe in Jesus. They didn't like the Samaritans, and wanted to call down fire from heaven on them.

The context of not going beyond what is written is about thinking too highly of certain mean. You should stick with the text. You misunderstand the basic meaning of a lot of texts. You should get that right before you try to allegoricalize texts, if you do at all.

It is likely the Jews required a sign based of the idea of false prophets giving signs that did not come to pass as per Deuteronomy. The Jews demands for signs and God's purpose for signs are not the same thing.

If you think this was addressed specifically to the apostles, you are really confused. At the end of the chapter, the crowds left him, and the twelve stuck with Him, though He said one of them was a devil.

Then Jesus worked a miracle and the man He was talking to believed. Why do you think Jesus worked miracles at all?

Here is something for you to chew on, John 2:11
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

willybob · Feb 19, 2017

Presedente: Your arguing from the flesh, and the flesh is blinded by Satan and see only rainbows and lollypops in the text..

The first words out of John the baptizers mouth was repent, same with Jesus after He returned from the wilderness, same with Peter in Acts 2 38, & 3-19 when they asked what they should do.....2 Cor. 7-10 and 11 explain the works of repentance and the process of going through a godly sorrow not to be regretted of..also the teaching on the mount in Matt. 5 "blessed are they that mourn for the kingdom is theirs" ............Jesus only appeared to those that believed after His resurrection about 500 out of 1 million in Israel.......few be that find it on the narrow path of faith proven by deeds that worketh LOVE from pure heart of sincerity having NO GUILE....dig deep you cant afford to mislay your foundation on the shifting sands of false prophets..........

As a whole these cities saw the great miracles of Jesus but repented not
Luke 10
10:13 Woe to you, Chorazin! woe to you, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works
had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had
a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

10:14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment,
than for you.
10:15 And you, Capernaum, which are exalted to heaven, shall be thrust
down to hell.

Jesus didn't go around kissing babies and handing out lollypops, He preached repent or perish for the kingdom of God is at hand...That is the LOVE of God............

presidente · Feb 19, 2017

willybob said:

Your whole argument here is a straw man. I do believe in repentance and preaching repentance. In the New Testament, we see that signs and wonders played a role in how Jesus evangelized and how the apostles evangelized. The preached repentance, and they also did signs and wonders. Signs and wonders isn't all rainbows and lolly pops. They weren't for the Egyptians in the time of Moses. The apostles preached repentance, and they also did signs and wonders and believed in and operated in gifts of the Spirit.

Trying to paint me as being about rainbows and lollypops and not about repentance because I believe in signs, wonders and gifts of the Spirit is unjustified. You seem to be creating a false dichotomy, as if one has to choose between Biblical teachings on signs and wonders or Biblical teachings on repentance. We need all these things.

willybob · Feb 19, 2017

presendete: Paul said the seen miracles were going away towards the end of His life and the church would have to survive on the maturity of love, "telious" or faith proven by deeds from a pure heart having no guile..

Today they cry for signs and wonders and abilities like Paul had, but they preach a different gospel than Paul, all the while expecting the same powers but rather are accursed unbeknowence....what did the devils say to such? Jesus we know, Paul we know, but who are you and then he was overtaken by devils...The signs and wonders mania has mushroomed since 1830 and has become one of the biggest merchandizing for dollars hoaxes in all of Christendom.....dig deep, you cant afford to be taken in by these charlatans building falsehoods upon shifting sands.....I don't think there is anything more I can tell you on this matter..... The greatest miracle in the ecclesia today is the new birth creature departing from the old man of sin by coming clean with God in repentance, all else is but great swelling words of emptiness.... Again, they promise liberty while they themselves are servants of corruption...

presidente · Feb 19, 2017

willybob said:

I'm guessing by the terminology you are using, that you are referring to I Corinthians 13. But this passage says nothing at all about miracles going away.

A time will come when the perfect will come. When that happens, then Paul's speech, knowledge, and understanding that he had when he was writing scripture in the first century, will seem like a child's in comparison to the speech, knowledge, and understanding he will have after the perfect comes. In this age, we can hope to have the spiritual knowledge of the apostles, according to what Paul wrote to the Ephesians 'when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ".

This passage is not about miracles or healing ceasing. The idea of miracles or healing ceasing in the last days is not found in scripture.

Paul sets the time frame for when we are to experience spiritual gifts when he writes in the same epistle, "so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ'. (I Corinthians 1:7.)

All the teachings the apostles gave us in the New Testament are good. We shouldn't treat some as good and then treat the rest like 'great swelling words of vanity.' That described the words of the false brethren, not the teachings of the apostles on spiritual gifts, signs and wonders, or on any other topic. The apostles preached salvation while performing signs and wonders. Believers who accepted the gospel message and received the Holy Spirit would function in spiritual gifts, given by the grace of God by the Holy Spirit. These gifts are good and they are not at odds with the gospel.

AlbertoRamalho · Sep 2, 2017

Are there any LCMS Charismatics or Pentecostals? How do I find them?

KALYNA18 · Sep 2, 2017

Hi Zone; your topic is good, and not demeaning in any way. YOu asked a straight honest question. The penticostal movement started on Izuzu Street, forgot where, it could be binged, with an american afro, man, not sure if he came from a backround of a baptist family, but he has nothing but faith, and used to put a cardboard box over his head, when he prayed, not to be distracted, just his thing, I quess, but miracles started happening, eyes that were blind, were healed, and many other miracles. The question what and where does this make a connection with the scriptures, miracles were always present in the old, many of them, by Elijah, making the water around the altar burn the wood, the opposite of water putting fire out, making a iron, ax float to the top of water, and the new testament healing that Jesus when he was here on earth, did. The not good thing about the penticostal movement is that there are ;so many divisions of it, and so many are claiming to be and are not understanding the word at all. The movement has spread with all kinds of rules and teachings, and has moved away from the cross, and it's liberty. Corinthians says; although I do all this and know this, without love I am nothing at all. Corinthians 13.

KALYNA18 · Sep 2, 2017

LT said:

The known connection is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Jesus said, if your for me, then your not against me. NOt good to say those who love Christ are not good and not going to heaven and you are. according to answers.com The first centuries of the early church there was no Catholic church, or Orthodox church or protestant churches. The church developed differently according to where Christians lived and affected by their own cultures. THose in Egypt referring to themselves as the coptic Churchd the name used today. TAken from the paragraph.
Long ways back and even today, Pentecostals and many thousands of churches, the women stay by the word and cover their heads, so do the catholic women if they prefer, tradition or not, but it is the same. There's more than meets the eyes with Charismatic, pentecostal, Catholic, who are on the same page, as to worshipping. I know because I've been in all of them without prejudice's. One of the greatest blessing any one could have, is to look at people as God would, and not on their titles. One of the greatest's losses, is putting yourself better than another. The word says, esteem one another better than your selfs, build and not tear down. Paul himself said, that when he left, there would be many divisions, and false teachings. Love is the greatest. So yeah, Love stands when the titles are destroyed,,,,,and no more.

stonesoffire · Sep 2, 2017

AlbertoRamalho said:

What does LCMS mean? I am Spirit filled. There are others here.

AlbertoRamalho · Sep 2, 2017

LCMS means Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. It's the conservative branch of the Lutheran Church in the United States. All other Lutheran Churches are liberal, inclusive and affirmative meaning they welcome peoples of other faith confessions and "approve" of same sex attraction. I've heard that there's a charismatic movement inside the LCMS. In other words, that there are Spirit filed believers in the LCMS. Thank you for writing and letting me know you're Spirit filled. It's good to know Christians are still being filled with the power of God. It's very difficult to be a Christian nowadays and I would say almost IMPOSSIBLE without the Holy Spirit.

stonesoffire · Sep 2, 2017

I agree. It's always good to hear of Christians receiving the baptism, but accepting same sex attraction? What is there reasoning concerning this? Do you know?

The word I used first seemed inappropriate for the forum.

AlbertoRamalho · Sep 2, 2017

That's why the Lutheran Church was divided. LCMS are the conservative Lutherans. ELCA - Evangelical Lutheran Church of America is the liberal Lutheran Church. There are many reasons why they accept homosexuality. I believe the most important is that there are many gay pastors who tried to change but could not, as well as many gay church members who did not receive any help to change. They came to the conclusion that it is impossible to change and decided it's OK to be gay. Something like this. The Bible however is very clear about the issue. It's a very difficult issue for the church today because the gay population and sympathizers seem to be growing... But I don't want to go in that direction. If we start to debate the issue here there will be an explosion of arguments. People never agree on this. But don't forget, according to Jesus himself, in the last days, it will be like Sodom and Gomorrah.

stonesoffire · Sep 3, 2017

I had to reread your post. I misunderstood and thought you were saying that those who are Spirit filled were accepting gay lifestyles. That was why I commented on it,
.
I don't think there would be too much of a debate here on this matter. Most here believe it's sin.

tanakh · Sep 3, 2017

From what Ive read the main figure in the modern Pentecostal movement was Edward Irving who broke away from the Anglican Church and formed his own. He had connections with Darby and other Dispensationalists. He was forced out of his own Church having tried to promote the belief that Christ had a sin nature

EarnestQ · Sep 3, 2017

Well said, Tanakh.

Edward Irving was a hugely popular preacher in late 1820's London. He preached a lot on the return of Christ and maintained that before His return the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" would be recovered. In early 1830 two teenage girls (Mary Campbell and Margaret MacDonald) in Scotland, under the teaching of Irving's assistant, Alexander Scott, started speaking in tongues. Irving was convinced that the return of Christ was immanent because of this. Soon others in Irving's church (the Catholic Apostolic Church) began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

For what it's worth, Irving was a member of the Albury Prophesy Conferences held in the late 1820's. This is, to the best of my knowledge, where the major themes of Dispensationalism and the pre-trib rapture were invented. John Darby got his dispensationalist and pre-trib rapture ideas from Irving and Irving's close friend, Lady Powerscourt.

I think it ironic that dispensational fundamentalism and the modern charismatic movement may both have the same grandfather in Edward Irving.

I can't yet prove that Charles Parham got his tongues ideas from Irving's Church in London in the late 1800's when he visited England but I would like to if he did.

The Original Pentecostal Movement

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