There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

[chubbena]

Not sure about this:
God breathed into Adam, man, and man became a living Soul. This was before the fall and before any eating of the tree of evil of the knowledge of good and evil.
Man became aware of the flesh, alive to flesh, knew he was naked and tried to cover that up and went and hid.
Man at that time had not eaten from the tree of life yet (Jesus Christ)
God placed an angel to guard the tree of life, for if man at that time had eaten from it, would have gotten eternal life on the flesh side and been evil for eternity. The Garden was blocked off until the Christ came, died, rose back to life and the Holy Sprit of God came to give life and we can today, those that believe eat freely from the tree of life here today in the Spirit not the flesh.
For he came to give us life not in flesh, rather in Spirit where today is the only way Father is worshiped per John 4:23-24

Sorry I think you have left out something very important that led man to become aware of the flesh.

 

[chubbena]

John 1:1 is very clear. Jesus is God. End of story.

I was not able to get an answer on the other thread so I'd try here: Is eternal Sonship teaching of Trinitarian theology?

 

[johnluke]

I was not able to get an answer on the other thread so I'd try here: Is eternal Sonship teaching of Trinitarian theology?

The eternal Sonship is not necessarily a Trinitarian teaching only. The vast majority of Christians believe that the Son is eternal with God. It is only in trying to explain the details that we get into trouble.

Where Christian start to be divided is: what is the "form" or "nature" of the Son in the eternities before his earthly ministry and throughout future eternities. What is his physical relationship with God, his Father:
Is God 3 separate, but consubstantial persons in 1 God or,
Is God 3 separate and distinct individuals, that act in perfect unity as if they are 1 God or,
Is God really only 1 God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost are powerful helpers of this 1 God or,
Is there only 1 God with 3 different faces or facets or modes.

The problem we have is that 2 or 3 of these versions are fairly well supported in the scriptures. That's why we have these different versions of God and His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. There are many others, but these are the ones that have support from the scriptures.

Another problem is that 1 of the versions especially have said that if you don't believe the way we believe, then you are not saved and in fact you are not even a Christian. This is an unfortunate position and further divides and antagonizes the situation. Hopefully, we can discuss the details with patience and love and help all to have a more passionate testimony of the Godhead and their mission among men, especially as it relates to the Son of God, Jesus Christ, our Savior.

 

[ClaudiaT]

Honestly, I cant understand what there is to argue about when it comes to this subject and why anyone would make such a big deal about it in the first place. To me it seems silly.

 

[johnluke]

Honestly, I cant understand what there is to argue about when it comes to this subject and why anyone would make such a big deal about it in the first place. To me it seems silly.

It would be nice if we could say, I believe in God the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. Everyone believes in that statement. But then someone starts to define the details as to how they exist in the Godhead and their qualities and their relationship to each other, and their natures. Well when you start with the details, hardly 1 person agrees with another about all the details. So discussions occur, sometimes leading to argument. Actually thousands of men and women over the ages have been killed because of the argument about the details.

So it is silly, but it is part of life, and that's exactly why we say, don't get too deep into discussions about politics and religion. Somehow the temptation is too great to not respond and we go crazy.

Luckily we all believe in Christ and hopefully it all comes out good in the end. May the Lord be with you.

 

[know1]

If Jesus is God, then he would be invisible (1 Tim 1:7).

So: either Jesus is God and no one has ever seen him, or

Jesus is not God and he has been seen by thousands of people like what the scriptures confirm.

You cannot have it both ways.

You just got done telling me that Jesus has an eternal spirit, which we cannot see in the natural, so how does this disqualify him from being a part of God? He didn't have a physical body before He came in the flesh. If you have one scripture verse that supposedly says one thing and 25 that says contrary, why do you hold to the one and form your whole doctrine off it? Why not just check out the other doctrine without any bias and see if it holds up to the rest of the scripture verse? It is possible that you have it wrong sir.

 

[know1]

First of all I quoted scipture right from the Bible in Genesis. If you don't believe it that's ok with me. It is just what I believe.

When Jesus died, the body part of his soul was laid to rest in the tomb. The spirit (including his mind and will) part of his soul continued to live, being an eternal entity. As you have said, in the spirit, he first went to *Paradise with the thief on the cross. He then went to preach unto the spirits in *prison (1Peter 3:18-19). The spirits in the spirit prison were those who since the beginning of the earth had died and found themselves in that spirit prison. I believe that he was in prison to preach the gospel, and those who would receive him, and believe on him, would have an opportunity to leave the prison.
Three days later his spirit was reunited with his body and his soul was made whole again and he became a resurrected being, the spirit and body never to be separated again.


* At death our soul is separated, the body lies in the grave and our spirit lives on. The spirit will either enter into a spirit Paradise or a spirit Prison, depending on our deeds done in the flesh. You will remember the story of Lazarus and the rich man. When Lazarus died he went into the bosom of Abraham and was comforted (Paradise). The rich man went to Hell (Prison) and the rich man in his torment called to have Lazarus bring him a drop of water to cool him. Abraham said he could not send Lazarus because there was an impassable gulf between Paradise and Prison. I believe Jesus in effect built a bridge over that gulf and those that believed in him were able to go out of prison and into paradise.

At the time of resurrection our spirits and bodies will reunite and create a whole soul again for ever.

Sir, there is much of what I said that you have ignored and passed over as though it wasn't there. I understand that you wanted to get to everyone's posts, and I also understand that it is possible that I wrote some things you never heard before and therefore couldn't reply to, but please check into some of the things I wrote.
I'm going to give you another verse that you shouldn't be able to ignore.
Psa 69:32 The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
I have already shown clearly that the heart and spirit of man are separate entities, that they are not the same thing, and I could prove this further with many scripture verses to back it up, so how can this part of man live forever if it is not the spirit of man? Again, here is another verse that shows the separation.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psa 51:10 CreateH1254 in me a cleanH2889 heart,H3820 O God;H430 and renewH2318 a rightH3559 spirit H7307 withinH7130 me.
Please notice the different Hebrew words for heart and spirit. They clearly are not the same. So how is it that the heart will live for ever when it is not one of the parts listed, such as the body, soul, and spirit?

 

[homwardbound]

If Jesus is God, why did he utter from the cross, "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me." (Mark 15:34) God had to let his son Jesus go through this awful crucifixion by himself, so God abandoned Jesus completely at this time. It is a class A scripture to show their true relationship as separate beings. If Jesus were God, he would not die in the first place, and even if he were, he would not have uttered these words.

As a note of interest: When Jesus called out to God, he called His name. And the name he called his God was Eloi. To make this point the translators actually left the Hebrew words in our English translation, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani, meaning my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me. The name Eloi is very interesting because it is the singular form of the name Eloihim which is the Hebrew name of God in Genesis chapter 1 that is translated into English as "God".

The name of Jesus is clearly associated with the name of "Yahweh" in the Old Testament. However, many associate the name of "Yahweh" with the Father also. They have to do this to preserve the "one" God motif in the OT. But in Mark 15:34 we can clearly see that Jesus/Yahweh is calling to his God and Jesus is using the name of "Eloi" which is short for "Elohim", a completely different person than Yahweh. Look at the Hebrew and see only Eloihim in Genesis chapter 1 and then see that Eloihim rests in Genesis chapter 2 and another person takes over, and person is Yahweh. Yahweh goes on to form everything in Genesis chapter 2. Then all the way to NT times and on the cross Yahweh/Jesus is calling Eloihim/God and asking why He has abandoned him. Just an interesting side note of this scripture.

If Jesus is God, why did he utter from the cross, "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me." (Mark 15:34) God had to let his son Jesus go through this awful crucifixion by himself, so God abandoned Jesus completely at this time. It is a class A scripture to show their true relationship as separate beings. If Jesus were God, he would not die in the first place, and even if he were, he would not have uttered these words.

Maybe it is because you do not understand being married as Christ is married to Father are one, and the two shall be one
And about this forsaking issue, Father can not view sin, and when does destroys sin. Sin caused death period and Christ went to the cross to separate it, the death from sin in Father's sight. So Father can view us through Son as we being perfect even though we are not being in unredeemed flesh. Therefore trust God to crucify your flesh and be alive in God's Spirit
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

It matters not if one views them as separate or not, for it is only through the Son that one is transformed to new life in the Spirit of Father
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So no matter what either one believes God about his Son taking away the sin of the world as John the Baptist is the witness of and testified to this in John 1:29 or they do not believe 1 col, 1:22 and see Col1:1-23 that we are forgiven and is why Christ went to the cross for us.
Christ is perfect, is Christ not? Do you beleive he ever needed to go to the cross for himself to be redeemed at all?
I understand that Jesus was not God, yet he represented Father in all ways needed and this makes the two one as a marriage in flesh does. Two yet one, and now today we throw in the mix for us to be complete in the God head the Holy Spirit of truth, that teaches us all truth and tells us of God the Father and God the Son. Does not speak of himself only what God tells him. This is the same Holy Spirit that led Jesus, that was sent at Pentecost and is sent today, we be married to God through this, the Holy Ghost, spirit of truth my wedding ring. That God teaches me all truth that has and keeps me set free, and all that believe God is teaching them to stand and walk as Son walked, by Faith (trust) in Father, the creator of all
Yet just as water is steam and ice all different forms yet all three water, and now I am a part of God thanks to Christ whom I thank for going to the cross for me and all the world if only we will change our minds and believe we will then receive and see

 

[homwardbound]

Sorry I think you have left out something very important that led man to become aware of the flesh.

Please enlighten me and sharpen this ?Thanks Chubbena

 

[chubbena]

The eternal Sonship is not necessarily a Trinitarian teaching only.

But it is indeed one of the teachings of Trinitarian isn't it?

I agree with the rest of what you said and I'd never try to invade His privacy because the secret things belong to Yahweh.

 

[chubbena]

Please enlighten me and sharpen this ?Thanks Chubbena

God breathed into Adam, man, and man became a living Soul. This was before the fall and before any eating of the tree of evil of the knowledge of good and evil.
Man became aware of the flesh, alive to flesh, knew he was naked and tried to cover that up and went and hid.

I was being picky because you might have implicitly said that:
After eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil man became aware of the flesh...

 

[johnluke]

I'm having a hard time believing you actually made the above statement.
The bible never refers the heart as a physical thing that pumps blood though your body. It is not the physical heart the bible is talking about, but the spiritual heart of man. Even as, I believe, Jesus to be the heart of the Father.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Could anyone in their right mind say this about the thumper in your chest?
Think spiritual, not physical.


If the body is part of the soul of man then what happens to the soul when the physical body dies? Jesus did not take His body to hell when He died, it was still in the grave. Notice how Jesus told the man on the other cross, 'Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.' If His soul was in the grave for three days, how was He in the belly of the earth for those same three days?
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
I hope you can see clearly, the distinct separation between the body and soul, through the above verse in Matthew.
You are not the body and the body is not you. When you leave the body, it will die and fall to the ground as James stated.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Exo 35:21 And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing, and they brought the LORD'S offering to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments. Note the how the heart did the stirring and the man's spirit made him willing. They are separate, with different functions, as well as abilities.
Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; Also notice the separation between the spirit and breathof man. The word 'breath', is the same word used in Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And as you pointed out, the breath of life is the soul of man.
However, I think there is a slight problem with your theory of man being made like God when you include his physical body. When the body dies and decay, the man ceases to be a three part being, as you say we are. Therefore, at best we would onlyhave two parts to our being, no longer made in the likeness of God.
Question, if God is three persons in one, with three minds, wills, and personalities of their own, how are we made in the image of God, after His likeness, having three parts in one person? It would stand to reason, that if we were made like God, we too would have to have three beings in one, rather than three parts, which is not made like God. Logically speaking.

Psa_4:4 Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah. Have you ever communed with your heart?
Question, at night when you are in bed asleep, who is talking through you, if the conscious part of you is no longer able to function?
(GNB) While I slept, my heart was awake. I dreamed my lover knocked at the door...
What the world calls, the conscious and subconscious, the bible calls it the soul and heart, respectively.

All the scriptures you quote about the "heart" having its own mind, and willl, and being able to see, hear, and talk, I look at those scriptures metaphorically both physically and spiritually. I see the "heart" as part of the "body", not as some kind of spirit "person" inside my body having special functions and abilities. When the scriptures speaks of the heart as being deceitful, or wicked, or commune with your heart, or your heart is awake at night, or the heart is stirring him, that verbiage is metaphoric, and you would have to stretch the scripture a long way to say the heart has its own mind and will and sees, hears, and talks and is one of 3 persons that make up man. Wow, that's a lot deeper than I am willing to go with the make-up of man.

You say that man is made up of "soul, "heart" and "spirit". I just happen to disagree with you. If you asked 10,000 Christians what is the make-up of man you would get at least 20-30 different answers. So there is certainly no consensus about the make-up. It doesn't matter how clear you say the scriptures are for you on the matter, you will still get 20-30 different answers all backed up by scripture as I did.

You say: I hope you can see clearly, the distinct separation between the body and soul, through the above verse in Matthew. You are not the body and the body is not you. When you leave the body, it will die and fall to the ground as James stated. Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I see that Matthew uses the terms body and soul and that James uses the terms body and spirit. I think that the terms "soul" and "spirit" are used interchangeably as the same element, and they should use "spirit" not "soul". Again, I believe that the soul = both the body and spirit of man. This is my interpretation of scripture again, but I believe my interpretation is correct as you believe yours is correct.

You say: However, I think there is a slight problem with your theory of man being made like God when you include his physical body. When the body dies and decay, the man ceases to be a three part being, as you say we are. Therefore, at best we would onlyhave two parts to our being, no longer made in the likeness of God.

Have you ever heard of the resurrection? When Jesus died on the cross his spirit left his body and it died. The soul was now divided. The body part of the sould lay in the tomb for 3 days, while the spirit part of the soul went to Paradise and then went to preach to the spirits in prison. Then after 3 days his spirit returned to the body and the spirit and the body were again united to form a resurrected soul. So today Jesus has a flesh and bone body and spirit.

Question, if God is three persons in one, with three minds, wills, and personalities of their own, how are we made in the image of God, after His likeness, having three parts in one person? It would stand to reason, that if we were made like God, we too would have to have three beings in one, rather than three parts, which is not made like God. Logically speaking.

In my opinion we are not made up of 3 persons, the soul, the heart, and the spirit. In my opinion, we are made up of only 2 elements, body and spirit (the spirit includes our mind and will). Since I believe man is made up of body and spirit, and we are made in the image and likeness of God, to me it is perfectly logical to believe that God is made up of a body and a spirit too. I know I am on the right track when I look at the resurrected Jesus. He is made up of a glorious resurrected body and spirit.
And I know that we too will have our vile bodies changed and fashioned after Jesus's glorious body when we are resurrected.

So if we will have glorious souls, of body and spirit, and Jesus is made-up the same, it is reasonable to think that God is also made up the same way.

These are my opinions, based on the interpretation of scripture as I see it. You obviously have a different interpretation and I respect that.

 

[johnluke]

But it is indeed one of the teachings of Trinitarian isn't it?

I agree with the rest of what you said and I'd never try to invade His privacy because the secret things belong to Yahweh.

Yes it is.

 

[johnluke]

You just got done telling me that Jesus has an eternal spirit, which we cannot see in the natural, so how does this disqualify him from being a part of God? He didn't have a physical body before He came in the flesh. If you have one scripture verse that supposedly says one thing and 25 that says contrary, why do you hold to the one and form your whole doctrine off it? Why not just check out the other doctrine without any bias and see if it holds up to the rest of the scripture verse? It is possible that you have it wrong sir.

First, I did not say that "Jesus has an eternal spirit". I said that "the Son is eternal with God." Then I said we have division about the "form or nature" of their existence. This is one of those divisions. Many Christians believe that God is "invisible".
I said that if you believe God is invisible, then you can't believe that Jesus is God (remember the statement from danschance, "John 1:1 it is very clear. Jesus is God. End of story")

I say that Jesus was in the form of a spirit before he came to this earth but during his earthly mission his form changed, at that time his form was a body of flesh and bone and spirit. Thousands saw him and hundreds saw him after resurrection of his body, and they testify that they saw him and felt his flesh and he ate with them to prove that he was not just an invisible spirit (Luke 24:39). He is in the same form today and will be in the same form forever. Not invisible but visible.

Jesus in about 35 different scriptures testified that His Father (God) was in heaven. Saying after saying he used this verbiage when referring to God, "which is in heaven", while he was preaching to people on earth. So during Jesus's earthly ministry God was is in heaven and invisible. Jesus was not God and was on earth visible.

What 25 scriptures support the idea that Jesus has never been visible because he is an eternal spirit?

 

[johnluke]

I understand that Jesus was not God, yet he represented Father in all ways needed and this makes the two one as a marriage in flesh does.

Homewardbound,

You are right, Jesus was not God, and your marriage analogy is right on. Jesus and God act together for the salvation of man as if they are one God, just like two married people act as 1 person and are 1 flesh. It was necessary for Jesus to go to the cross for our salvation. We can be thankful that he did and we worship him for his sacrifice. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[know1]

All the scriptures you quote about the "heart" having its own mind, and willl, and being able to see, hear, and talk, I look at those scriptures metaphorically both physically and spiritually. I see the "heart" as part of the "body", not as some kind of spirit "person" inside my body having special functions and abilities. When the scriptures speaks of the heart as being deceitful, or wicked, or commune with your heart, or your heart is awake at night, or the heart is stirring him, that verbiage is metaphoric, and you would have to stretch the scripture a long way to say the heart has its own mind and will and sees, hears, and talks and is one of 3 persons that make up man. Wow, that's a lot deeper than I am willing to go with the make-up of man.

You say that man is made up of "soul, "heart" and "spirit". I just happen to disagree with you. If you asked 10,000 Christians what is the make-up of man you would get at least 20-30 different answers. So there is certainly no consensus about the make-up. It doesn't matter how clear you say the scriptures are for you on the matter, you will still get 20-30 different answers all backed up by scripture as I did.

You say: I hope you can see clearly, the distinct separation between the body and soul, through the above verse in Matthew. You are not the body and the body is not you. When you leave the body, it will die and fall to the ground as James stated. Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I see that Matthew uses the terms body and soul and that James uses the terms body and spirit. I think that the terms "soul" and "spirit" are used interchangeably as the same element, and they should use "spirit" not "soul". Again, I believe that the soul = both the body and spirit of man. This is my interpretation of scripture again, but I believe my interpretation is correct as you believe yours is correct.

You say: However, I think there is a slight problem with your theory of man being made like God when you include his physical body. When the body dies and decay, the man ceases to be a three part being, as you say we are. Therefore, at best we would onlyhave two parts to our being, no longer made in the likeness of God.

Have you ever heard of the resurrection? When Jesus died on the cross his spirit left his body and it died. The soul was now divided. The body part of the sould lay in the tomb for 3 days, while the spirit part of the soul went to Paradise and then went to preach to the spirits in prison. Then after 3 days his spirit returned to the body and the spirit and the body were again united to form a resurrected soul. So today Jesus has a flesh and bone body and spirit.

Question, if God is three persons in one, with three minds, wills, and personalities of their own, how are we made in the image of God, after His likeness, having three parts in one person? It would stand to reason, that if we were made like God, we too would have to have three beings in one, rather than three parts, which is not made like God. Logically speaking.

In my opinion we are not made up of 3 persons, the soul, the heart, and the spirit. In my opinion, we are made up of only 2 elements, body and spirit (the spirit includes our mind and will). Since I believe man is made up of body and spirit, and we are made in the image and likeness of God, to me it is perfectly logical to believe that God is made up of a body and a spirit too. I know I am on the right track when I look at the resurrected Jesus. He is made up of a glorious resurrected body and spirit.
And I know that we too will have our vile bodies changed and fashioned after Jesus's glorious body when we are resurrected.

So if we will have glorious souls, of body and spirit, and Jesus is made-up the same, it is reasonable to think that God is also made up the same way.

These are my opinions, based on the interpretation of scripture as I see it. You obviously have a different interpretation and I respect that.

Well sir, I have to at least say, thank you, for replying to the things I wrote.
Though I could go much further with scripture to press my case, I won't, as it would be fruitless and a waist of my time.
And since I see that I'm going no where with this subject, it is best to just drop it.
Unfortunately for many, salvation will be as far as the child of God gets in this life, without knowing and walking in the covenant God has provided for them, because of the hardness of their heart, which prevents them from hearing and seeing (understanding and perceiving).

 

[starfield]

Homewardbound,

You are right, Jesus was not God, and your marriage analogy is right on. Jesus and God act together for the salvation of man as if they are one God, just like two married people act as 1 person and are 1 flesh. It was necessary for Jesus to go to the cross for our salvation. We can be thankful that he did and we worship him for his sacrifice. Thanks for your thoughts.

Jesus was God.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

 

[homwardbound]

I was being picky because you might have implicitly said that:
After eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil man became aware of the flesh...

Thank you, and is that not what to this day is trying to stop the Spirit of God to be in control, selfishly, by acting good when no flesh can be, not perfectly anyway, which Christ so well showed when he was here on earth in the flesh (only flesh) that ever pleased God
He said:
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

The fight to this very day is:
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

And is why born again important by the Spirit of God. Seeing all three as separate yet one

 

[homwardbound]

Jesus was God.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Starfield no one gets to the Father in other way except though Son Christ
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

They are two, yet one are they not? noone sees the Father but by and through Son Jesus our propitiation for any and all sin back at the cross, truth or not truth. Do they play separate roles, and yet are one in Spirit, do you agree with God, so are you one in Spirit as well then? Are is there only Jesus and none other?

 

[homwardbound]

What a mystery two yet one, ?