Attack of the Judaizers

[LT]

How in the world are you able to follow the spirit of the law and not have it lead you to the letter? You could say I love you very much but I have decided to kill you! Wouldn't work. You can't have true holiness without the spirit, but how can you have the spirit without it leading to the letter?

Because the letter says "do not eat swine" but the Spirit says "be wise in all that you do".
The letter say "do not intermarry" but the Spirit says "keep yourself from being tied down to worldliness".

The letter of the Law shows us who God is by how He guided Israel.
The Spirit of the Law shows us how to apply those principles today, shown to us through the Holy Spirit.

 

[RedTent]

Red, you are smarter than that. Christ as a man was under the old covenant but when He died he was no longer under the old covenant. He went to Abraham's bosom and set the captives free and brought them to Heaven. Had Christ still been under the old covenant, He could not of liberated those in Abraham's Bosom. When he came back to life He was under the new covenant, as a man. So did Jesus then separate himself from His Father? Of course not.

That makes no sense, nor do I find scripture to back you up. There is no scripture that says that the old covenant was destroyed because a new one was added. Scripture tells us of many new covenants. When God made a promise, that is what God did, it didn't involve wiping everything out and starting from scratch.

Because the saints were set free from their sleep at the resurrection does not say that at that time Christ destroyed everything His Father had done in the 4,000 years of the earth to that time.

 

[danschance]

Red, By the way, I do hear God speak to me. Not every day but several times a month and He has never told me to follow the old covenant. He has encouraged me, scolded me, challenged me and once told me things that brought healing in a young ladies life, three separate times. There is no way I am separated from Christ. He even told me I am chosen, meaning I will go to Heaven some day, no doubt about it.

 

[chubbena]

Of all the commandments, which is the most important?“The most important one,” answered Yeshua, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength...."
Yeshua said: What is written in the Law? How do you read it?
He answered:" Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind...."
Of all the commandments - which commandments?
What is written in the Law?
Is this commandment for Christians? Gentile Christian? Where is this commandment from? Is it not from the Law?
How to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind?
Lip service?
Deut 6:4-9 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[SUP] [/SUP]Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.
These verses look awfulyl similar to what Yeshua said in Mark 12:29-30 for a reason.

 

[RedTent]

Red, By the way, I do hear God speak to me. Not every day but several times a month and He has never told me to follow the old covenant. He has encouraged me, scolded me, challenged me and once told me things that brought healing in a young ladies life, three separate times. There is no way I am separated from Christ. He even told me I am chosen, meaning I will go to Heaven some day, no doubt about it.

God speaks to us, now, through scripture. What doesn't agree with scripture isn't of God.

What exactly is this old covenant that you refuse to follow? There were many, one involved a rainbow, and there still are rainbows. Is it all of the covenants you feel God took back?

 

[Historicist]

If we are to keep the Mosaic laws then why did Christ die?

Christ died for our sins, for our transgressions of the law (see 1 John 3:4 for the Bible definition of sin). Because He paid the penalty (death) we are no longer under that death penalty. This means we are under grace, but grace does not mean we are at liberty to abandon, to not keep this law as our moral compass. Jesus clearly warned against this teaching this, "broad way that leadeth unto destruction" (Matt. 7:13, 21-23). Messiah, in other words was perfect because he obeyed the Law of the Lord perfectly and was therefore without sin. No, we cannot obey the Law of the Lord perfectly as Jesus did. But this does not mean we are at liberty to abandon it, and it most certainly does not mean that, if we use it as Jesus did, as a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path (Psalm 119:105), i.e., as our moral compass that we are trying to earn our salvation.

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20

 

[danschance]

No, I do not say it is not okay, God does. Have you not read why Ezra and Nehemiah "sent away the non-Israelite women taken as wives by the Judahites who returned from captivity? What do you think is meant in Deuteronomy 7:3 which says, "Neither shalt thou make marriages with them." Why do you think Abraham said, "...thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites...But thou shall go to my country, and to my kindred" (Gen. 24:3-4, see also 28:1). And you LT call this "nonsense." Who is your god, that of political correctness? Do you not realize that your view on this subject is one and the same with the K-12 education (indoctrination) system you just finished. Please, get wisdom, get understanding, set aside that guitar and read some scripture, especially those referenced above. I will pray that you do this, and that you will repent of calling God's eternal principles "nonsense."

Wow, tin foil hat time.

"Who is your god, that of political correctness?"
"view on this subject is one and the same with the K-12 education (indoctrination) system"
"set aside that guitar and read some scripture"

That is a bizarre rant.

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

That makes no sense, nor do I find scripture to back you up. There is no scripture that says that the old covenant was destroyed because a new one was added. Scripture tells us of many new covenants. When God made a promise, that is what God did, it didn't involve wiping everything out and starting from scratch.

Because the saints were set free from their sleep at the resurrection does not say that at that time Christ destroyed everything His Father had done in the 4,000 years of the earth to that time.

Red, have you ever read the book of Hebrews? It obviously was written to the Jewish people of the Early Church. How God was making obsolete the Old way in Adam, or the Old Covenant was being brought to it's fulfillment in Messiah, Jesus. Who, Himself was the New Way!

These new converts to the early church were mostly Jews, they would make the sign of the fish and they spoke of this New Movement as being in The Way. Meaning the New Way, or New Covenant! This is why they suffered and died, being a witness to their own, the Jews; because the Old Way would be no more by 70ad. Preaching to the Jew first, this is why, to the Jew first. They sold their land and their possessions, not because God wanted Christians to live in communes, but because after 70ad it would all be taken away from them. Jesus wanted them to gather, and then go out and be a witness to their Brethren the Jews; either for or against them in the day of their judgement.

I bet your so sweet! I'd love to set down across from you and have fellowship in the Lord, that would be a hoot!
many blessings

 

[Historicist]

Nope. Col. 2:16 states no one can judge us about the sabbath. So you are teaching things contrary to scripture and against God's will,

danschance, you will not admit that "sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4) nor that the sabbaths referred to in Col. 2:16 are the ceremonial sabbaths. Why do you, unlike most Christians for the last 2000 years have so little respect for Sunday, for the fourth commandment sabbath. Have you ever stopped to think as to why stores and restaurants, until a few decades ago, were kept closed on Sundays by "blue laws," by the laws which have now been repealed (by a sinful government)? Please, think about it.

 

[Historicist]

Because the letter says "do not eat swine" but the Spirit says "be wise in all that you do".
The letter say "do not intermarry" but the Spirit says "keep yourself from being tied down to worldliness".

The letter of the Law shows us who God is by how He guided Israel.
The Spirit of the Law shows us how to apply those principles today, shown to us through the Holy Spirit.

Please young man, the letter of the law defines sin ("for sin is the transgression of the law" [1 John 3:4]). God/Jesus wants us to make a reasonable effort to obey these laws, in the letter and in the spirit, Jesus did, why would we not want to follow his example by using this same moral compass? Where did you get the idea that the Law of the Lord was some temporary only form of religious hocus pocus?

"Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law" (Psalm 119:18). Please Lord, in the name of Jesus, open the eyes of this young man that he may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

 

[Historicist]

Wow, tin foil hat time.

That is a bizarre rant.

It is a "bizzarre rant" because you cannot refute the above scriptural evidence with logic and reason.

 

[Historicist]

Because the letter says "do not eat swine" but the Spirit says "be wise in all that you do".
The letter say "do not intermarry" but the Spirit says "keep yourself from being tied down to worldliness".

The letter of the Law shows us who God is by how He guided Israel.
The Spirit of the Law shows us how to apply those principles today, shown to us through the Holy Spirit.

LT, the letter of the law says "thou shalt not commit adultery" and the spirit of the law (according to Jesus) says that if we lust after a woman in our heart we commit adultery (i.e., in spirit). Does this mean, if we obey God's law on adultery, in spirit, that if we do not lust after a woman in our heart, that it's okay to ignore, to nullify the letter of this law. Do you not realize that we are to obey all of God's laws, in the letter, and in the spirit. This is what Jesus did, why would we not want to follow his example?

 

[Stephen63]

This is what I know. Sin is the transgression of the Law, yes. Jesus did for me what I couldn't do for myself in these ways:
*He fulfilled the Law...... for me. I could never do it so He did in my place, just as he died on the cross in my place, so I wouldn't have to. Thank you Jesus!
*He gave me His righteousness 'cause I didn't have any, & couldn't obtain it. The Father not only sees me cleansed from sin, He sees His Son's righteous when He looks at me.
*The Father also sees the faith He gave me...... throught the evidence of works. "Fruits meet for repentence"(Mat 3:8), or "works meet for repentence" (Acts 26:20). Obedience & good works are the sole evidence of faith. They are mandated, yes, but not to receive salvation.

We know we are brethen (disciples) because of our love for one another (John 13:35). That love can only be demonstrated/proven by good works.

Good works demonstrate/prove that we are saved, that we are changing from glory to glory, even by the Spirit of the Lord.

John 14:12 (KJV) [SUP]12 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

True, good works can be done by nearly anyone, but the good works of God can only be done through those who receive Christ as their Savior & Lord.

 

[RedTent]

Because the letter says "do not eat swine" but the Spirit says "be wise in all that you do".
The letter say "do not intermarry" but the Spirit says "keep yourself from being tied down to worldliness".

The letter of the Law shows us who God is by how He guided Israel.
The Spirit of the Law shows us how to apply those principles today, shown to us through the Holy Spirit.

Finally! This makes sense. We see the same thing, yet express it differently.

To me, obeying the spirit of the law does not wipe out the letter, for the letter shows ways the spirit of the law operates.
A beautiful way of explaining it is that if we obey the letter of the Sabbath (altho it shows the Talmud rules that Christ was against) so we would not help someone, it would not be obeying the spirit. It is the spirit that is necessary.

We still have the separation of my saying that the scriptures giving the letter of the law need to be carefully studied, they weren't thrown out because Christ explained them better than they had been explained before. Christ said "you have been told" and then "but I tell you". His explanation of the spirit of the law never cancelled out the letter, just made the letter clearer.

 

[danschance]

That makes no sense, nor do I find scripture to back you up. There is no scripture that says that the old covenant was destroyed because a new one was added. Scripture tells us of many new covenants. When God made a promise, that is what God did, it didn't involve wiping everything out and starting from scratch.

Because the saints were set free from their sleep at the resurrection does not say that at that time Christ destroyed everything His Father had done in the 4,000 years of the earth to that time.

Red, As I have said before God did not wipe out the old covenant, Christ fulfilled it. Scripture does back this up.

The Old Covenant vs. The New Covenant

Jeremiah 31:31-34​

• Old Covenant – Moses as Minister (2 Corinthians 3:13-15; John 1:17; Hebrews 3:5)
• New Covenant - Jesus’ Disciples as Ministers (2 Corinthians 3:6; John 16:12-15)

• Old Covenant - A Covenant of the Letter (2 Corinthians 3:6)
• New Covenant - A Covenant of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:6-8)

• Old Covenant - A Covenant which Kills (2 Corinthians 3:6)
• New Covenant - A Covenant which Gives Life (2 Corinthians 3:6 – literally “makes alive”)

• Old Covenant - A Ministry of Death (2 Corinthians 3:7)
• New Covenant - A Ministry of Life (2 Corinthians 3:6)

• Old Covenant - A Ministry of Condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:9)
• New Covenant - A Ministration of Righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:9)

• Old Covenant - A Covenant Written with Ink (2 Corinthians 3:3)
• New Covenant - A Covenant Written with the Spirit of the Living God (2 Corinthians 3:3)

• Old Covenant - A Covenant Written on Stone (2 Corinthians 3:3-7)
• New Covenant - A Covenant Written on the Heart of Man (2 Corinthians 3:3; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 11:19-20; 36:26)

• Old Covenant - A Covenant which came with Glory (2 Corinthians 3:7; Exodus 34:29-35)
• New Covenant - A Covenant which came with the Greatest Glory (2 Corinthians 3:8-11)

• Old Covenant - A Covenant whose Glory was Passing/Fading (2 Corinthians 3:7)
• New Covenant - A Covenant whose Glory Continues to Shine (2 Corinthians 3:18)

• Old Covenant - A Veiled or Covered Glory (2 Corinthians 3:12-16)
• New Covenant - An Unveiled, Ever-Increasing Glory (2 Corinthians 3:18)

• Old Covenant - A Covenant Destined to be Done Away (2 Corinthians 3:11; Hebrews 7:12,8:13, 10:9)
• New Covenant - A Covenant Destined to Last Forever (2 Corinthians 3:11; Hebrews 13:20)

Stolen from: What’s the Difference Between the Old Covenant & New Covenant in the Bible? | The Overflow

 

[danschance]

Here is a tidbit that might help some. Are we bound to the OT law? The answer is both yes and no.
Stolen from; What’s the Difference Between the Old Covenant & New Covenant in the Bible? | The Overflow

Likewise, there are three kinds of laws in the Old Testament.First, there are ceremonial laws, which are related to the priesthood, sacrifices, temple, and cleanness. These are now fulfilled in Jesus (for example, nearly the entire book of Hebrews addresses this issue for Jews who struggled with the Old Testament laws once they were saved). These laws are no longer binding on us because Jesus is our Priest, Sacrifice, Temple, and Cleanser.Second, there are civil laws, which refer to the governing of Israel as a nation ruled by God. Since we are no longer a theocracy, these laws, while insightful, are not directly binding on us. As Romans 13says, we must now obey our pagan government because God will work through it, too.Third, there are moral laws, which prohibit such things as stealing, murdering, and lying. These laws are still binding on us even though Jesus fulfilled their requirements through His sinless life. Jesus Himself repeats and reinforces nine of the Ten Commandments. The only exception is the Sabbath, because that is part of the ceremonial law. Now our rest is in the finished work of Jesus, not just a day.In Summary, the ceremonial and civil laws of the Old Testament are no longer binding on us, while the moral laws are.

 

[danschance]

It is a "bizzarre rant" because you cannot refute the above scriptural evidence with logic and reason.

I refute it with nearly every post on this thread. You only need eyes to see, ears to hear but what is plain to all.

 

[danschance]

danschance, you will not admit that "sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4) nor that the sabbaths referred to in Col. 2:16 are the ceremonial sabbaths. Why do you, unlike most Christians for the last 2000 years have so little respect for Sunday, for the fourth commandment sabbath. Have you ever stopped to think as to why stores and restaurants, until a few decades ago, were kept closed on Sundays by "blue laws," by the laws which have now been repealed (by a sinful government)? Please, think about it.

Sin is the trasngression of the law. Oops, looks like I just admited it.

You know nothing of me yet you have several times put words in my mouth which I have never posted. Frankly, I do not appreciate that. It is intellectual laziness on your part. Sunday is the day I have gone to church for decades. Though I can go to any church service on any day. Sunday is a tradition in the Church as it is the day Christ rose from the dead on.

 

[RedTent]

Red, have you ever read the book of Hebrews? It obviously was written to the Jewish people of the Early Church. How God was making obsolete the Old way in Adam, or the Old Covenant was being brought to it's fulfillment in Messiah, Jesus. Who, Himself was the New Way!

These new converts to the early church were mostly Jews, they would make the sign of the fish and they spoke of this New Movement as being in The Way. Meaning the New Way, or New Covenant! This is why they suffered and died, being a witness to their own, the Jews; because the Old Way would be no more by 70ad. Preaching to the Jew first, this is why, to the Jew first. They sold their land and their possessions, not because God wanted Christians to live in communes, but because after 70ad it would all be taken away from them. Jesus wanted them to gather, and then go out and be a witness to their Brethren the Jews; either for or against them in the day of their judgement.

I bet your so sweet! I'd love to set down across from you and have fellowship in the Lord, that would be a hoot!
many blessings

So would I like to sit down with the bible between us and just talk it all out!!!

I made a study, several years ago, of Christ from the viewpoint of the OT. That is how it was done in the first century. Every chapter was compared with how it was changed with Christ, and sometimes that it remained the same with Christ. Many things changed. It was Christ's blood, we became the temple, many things. But the amazing thing was that I began to see how the principles that God operates the world with remain the same. I had to learn the difference in Hebrew and Greek thinking, for David was a Hebrew and Paul thought like a Greek. I had to take Hebrews and Galatians apart, verse by verse. No one would help me. I had to immerse myself in countless history books to know what was going on in the world of Paul, for instance.

Then I needed to find out why the church decided everything was wiped out, everything new. Have you ever tried to make head or tail of Origen, Clement, or read Constantine's letters? Difficult. You would be amazed to know how much what they set up as church policy affects your thinking today.

If you read Hebrews with only bible to guide you, all of bible including what had happened before Christ, you would see it as a book telling us how to grow in Christ, what is meant by what is obsolete, and just what is obsolete. It wouldn't be a book telling you to cut yourself off from what was before, it would be a book of the wonders that Christ made possible for us to grow on.

 

[RedTent]

Dans, don't you see that because the wonders and glory of Christ is our growth, our greater glory, that we have something to learn from the old glory? Because Christ outshines the former, Christ rounded out and made fuller the old, it does not mean that we must not use the old as a base that the new was built on?

You are looking at law the OT gave as only history. You have a good grasp on the historical significance. There are people who look at the OT as only a book about the spiritual, and some who only see it as a book about the history. You are seeing it as mostly history, and saying that history is past so now we have no use for what was told. But we do have use for it. Some law was given as a constitution for a government that is past. That is the history. The bible is more than history. The bible gives eternal principles of God, and in this constitution for a government that is past, we are to learn the spiritual part.

When Christ fulfilled the law, and put forward the spirit of the law, he really didn't change anything. Most of Isaiah is saying the same thing. When you read scripture as telling of a world cut in two, without it being the story of God and what God is to us, you are missing much of the point of scripture. It is one book with the same message, and that message is mostly the story of God's plan for our redemption. God wants to redeem us because God loves us.

The letters that most Christians go by as the main bible is only the last chapter of the bible. It is written to tell of taking Christ to the gentiles. Many things had to be adjusted to do that, but todays church say it wasn't adjustments, that God isn't the same. They are reading it that there is a new God with new intentions. That isn't so. God is eternal.