Manifest Sons of God doctrine

[wanderer6059]

[h=3]Romans 1:20-23[/h]New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not [a]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [b]crawling creatures.

think these verses suit you very well simiel.......

 

[BELIEVE]

Originally Posted by Simiel

It's in the highly detailed version lol think I have the only one very very rare.. ..... I see you take things literally like when I told you to speak to King James about what was written...

Originally Posted by Simiel

As I said before I chose the name be caused I liked the way it sounds. The name has no significance to me or mean anything. Just a name in my book.


and you still didn't answer my question.

you said
When he died and went into the belly of the earth he beat up the devil and took our authority back.. Lol ok ok when I he went there he got our authority back.

​WHERE IN THE CANON BIBLE IS THAT? ARE YOU USING A BIBLE?

don't try and say you are using a idiom your not

or is it from the same one that has you screen name in it witch is the talmud.

simiel this is the second time you refer a book that you use that is not the bible???

When he died and went into the belly of the earth he beat up the devil and took our authority back.. Lol ok ok when I he went there he got our authority back.

and whats with that "I" were you about to say your were god again. forgot to take that out.......and shouldn't that be His authority???

why don't you answer me? where is you foundation and knowledge? are you afraid simiel?

dear brother wanderer6059.

colossians 2:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And having spoiled ( the word spoiled means disarmed ) principalities and powers, he made a shew ( the word shew means spectacle ) of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

in greek the word used is... APEKDUOMAI (for the word spoiled )... and its definition means... wholly put off from one's self, denoting separation from what is put off, wholly to strip off for one's self (for one's own advantage), despoil, disarm.
which leads us to isaiah 53:12...
isaiah 53:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil ( the word spoil means plunder ) with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

in greek the word used is... SHALAL (for the word spoil )... and its definition means... prey, spoil, booty, plunder (of war), to gain...
also...

revelations 1:18
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
which leads us to psalms 68:20...

psalms 68:20
[SUP]20 [/SUP]He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto God the Lord belong the issues ( the word issues means escapes ) from death.
in hebrew the word used is... TOWTSA'AH (for the word issues )... and its definition means... outgoing, extremity (of border), a going out, an end of a source, escape (from death), source (of life)

there was a battle and our lord jesus took back the original deed that god gave man from the beginning in the garden.

and here is a deeper revelation... notice what each verse is stating... it's a past, it's a present time , and it's a future event... all this is contained in verses 7-12...

revelation 12:7-12
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


god bless

 

[wanderer6059]

dear brother wanderer6059.

colossians 2:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And having spoiled ( the word spoiled means disarmed ) principalities and powers, he made a shew ( the word shew means spectacle ) of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

in greek the word used is... APEKDUOMAI (for the word spoiled )... and its definition means... wholly put off from one's self, denoting separation from what is put off, wholly to strip off for one's self (for one's own advantage), despoil, disarm.
which leads us to isaiah 53:12...
isaiah 53:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil ( the word spoil means plunder ) with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

in greek the word used is... SHALAL (for the word spoil )... and its definition means... prey, spoil, booty, plunder (of war), to gain...
also...

revelations 1:18
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
which leads us to psalms 68:20...

psalms 68:20
[SUP]20 [/SUP]He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto God the Lord belong the issues ( the word issues means escapes ) from death.
in hebrew the word used is... TOWTSA'AH (for the word issues )... and its definition means... outgoing, extremity (of border), a going out, an end of a source, escape (from death), source (of life)

there was a battle and our lord jesus took back the original deed that god gave man from the beginning in the garden.

and here is a deeper revelation... notice what each verse is stating... it's a past, it's a present time , and it's a future event... all this is contained in verses 7-12...

revelation 12:7-12
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


god bless

thank you i had asked that question to him for the last five post now i just need to clear up the extra things he likes to put in

 

[BELIEVE]

thank you i had asked that question to him for the last five post now i just need to clear up the extra things he likes to put in

dear brother wanderer6059...

you are very welcome... i noticed he wasn't answering so i did.

god bless...

 

[JamesChen]

Hi Arwen,

I came across this discussion and found it interesting because I had no clue of what a NAR doctrine was or had existed. Upon googling it, I realise it refers to a group called New Apostolic Reformation and is often associated with heresies and false teaching. After reading more into it, I realised I'm more confused than ever. Aren't everyone believing the same thing? In one spirit, in one Faith and in one Christ? I mean where's the difference? Hmm.. perhaps my answers to the questions below would better represent where I'm coming from.

1.) Do Christians still have a sinful nature after they are saved, and can we still sin?

Nope. According to Paul - What was normal to men previously.. Greed, anger, bitterness, lust, evil desires, earthly passions, idolatries, abusive language, slander, malice (the old man) ... is dead / crucified with Christ. By faith we are justified and redeemed by the blood of Jesus and now ... a new creation. It is now natural for the renewed mind / man who lives in Christ and in His Spirit to have peace, steadfastness, patience, kindness, mercy, pure hearts, humility an most of all love.

Can we still sin? Well... it's an individual's privilege to do so... but why would we now that it has become unnatural? I think its when a person who believes that Jesus is truly Lord, by faith goes through baptism believing it calls to death the old man and raises a new man which is in Christ, by grace .. the person is born again. Although... before Christ died he told a whole bunch of people to "go and sin no more" meaning... stop sinning. He wouldn't say that if it wasn't possible right? This was even before He ascend to heaven with his blood and placed it on the mercy seat.

2.) Did Jesus give up being God during the incarnation? Did He lay aside His deity and all His divine powers and do all miracles only as a man who was empowered by the Holy Spirit?

Give up being God? Not sure who says that. No Jesus didn't give up being God. He knew He was the Son of God. He knew who He was and people didn't know and took offence at what He said because it was against everything they were taught by the religious experts and teachers for years and years. But he did not let that affect who He was and He knew the Father and did whatever the Father did and said whatever the Father said. To him be all glory!

That being said, I'm not sure what those, who are opposing the NAR doctrine (as if there are any other doctrines outside Christ) are saying about this. That Jesus was God when He was on earth with full divine powers and he did not need or possess the Holy Spirit? That doesn't sound right as well.

Jesus was in the flesh and walked earth as a man. He wasn't a vision or figment of imagination. In fact, He may be still in flesh.... If he was God on earth... Satan wouldn't be able to tempt him right? Satan can't tempt God. If Jesus fulfil the scriptures and the law as God ... then the covenant and the promise would not be for the rest of mankind? Only a man could fulfil ALL the laws of Moses in Deuteronomy and thus achieve the blessings and favour of God and then become the perfect sacrifice. He achieved what Adam could not. As much as I understand why people are afraid of statements which takes away the deity in Jesus... I also am concerned people do not understand the human in Jesus... it heads down the path of believing Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh.. It would not be possible to pick up our cross and follow him if He did those everything He did as God... He wouldn't be a role model for us then but rather only God could have done that... we being humans... will continue to sin...be subject to fear... under the influence of the devil etc etc. You see what I mean?


3.) Whether or not healing is guaranteed in the atonement

So to be clear, the discussion here is this:
Those in favor of NAR doctrines need to argue their case from Scripture, and they need to use logic and reasoning and respond to the questions and comments brought up..

Those who oppose the NAR doctrines need to argue their case from Scripture, and they need to use logic and reasoning and respond to the questions and comments brought up...

Specifically, the pieces of NAR doctrine that have come up so far in this thread are these:
1.) Do Christians still have a sinful nature after they are saved, and can we still sin?

2.) Did Jesus give up being God during the incarnation? Did He lay aside His deity and all His divine powers and do all miracles only as a man who was empowered by the Holy Spirit?

3.) Whether or not healing is guaranteed in the atonement


However, the topic of this thread also deals with:
4.) Any other part of Manifest Sons of God teaching or NAR teaching


If anyone posts anything other than the above four topics in this thread, your post will be ignored by me.

And everyone participating needs to be forthright about their position. No playing games.

If you cannot meet the above requirements for discussion, then the discussion is over. I will not debate with someone who is just throwing random things out there, or who does not respond to the questions or comments that are brought up, or who is not completely honest about their position. It is a total waste of time if you're just here to spread your NAR doctrine.

Those of us who oppose NAR doctrine, let's not take this discussion in other directions either. We're here to show those caught up in false doctrine the truth. It's their choice what they want to do with it.

 

[Simiel]

Good reply James truly you have wisdom

 

[JamesChen]

Hi Guys,

Sorry I had to cut short the last post as my first posting got timed out or something... Anyway, here's some thoughts on the last question.

3.) Whether or not healing is guaranteed in the atonement

Healing has been a touchy topic for decades, much have been argued since people got healed in churches or after having a Christian pray for them since early 400 AD. Simply because there are people who don't get healed immediately and people that do. What do we make of this then? I would suggest that Jesus healed all and numerous people during his ministry, Paul healed many in Jesus's name and authority to the extent of handkerchiefs and aprons touching Paul were brought to the sick, they recovered and demons got driven out, Peter healed too. James says the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick and the Lord will raise him up. Jesus says this in Mark, those who believe.. they will place their hands on the sick and they will be well. Honestly? With regards to healing... the bible says that you are just to believe. It doesn't say the atonement guarantee healing but it says you need to believe and lay your hands on the sick. My point is that it doesn't say to think or debate about it because if we do... how can we have faith? It's simple but I'm afraid we've complicated it. You are a Christian, a born again brand new creation in Christ. He is in you and with you. Your actions abide in Him according to His Word and His Holy Spirit. Your mind and thoughts are towards Him and all other thoughts which are not in the bible (example : God doesn't heal anymore, there is a purpose for this person being sick...) should be cast down as self preserving to the knowledge of the One who you already gave your life to. Therefore, having this Christlike mindset and the love which you have for God and others. You pray for the sick to be healed because they have the same value as you (perhaps even greater) love them sincerely without an agenda and just let God do the rest. Too much thinking and rationalising is counter-productive in this sense. Of course people know that there are / were preachers out there who have not steward this praying for the sick properly. But that does not give us an excuse to be angry with them or doubt the bible. You're called only to believe in Jesus Christ being the Lord of all things and being obeying his commandments. To be renewed and transformed into the image of Christ which you were called to. In summary, why wonder if healing is guaranteed? Is there a motive for this?

Arwen - I don't think anyone is playing games out here. Anyone who is concerned enough to log in and share their views to the glory of Jesus Christ the Son and ultimately to honour the Father by stirring each other towards good works and love...ain't playing games. People who are looking to play games... well.. would play games on the internet rather than spend time to write in this forum. I sincerely doubt there is a NAR doctrine or a protestant doctrine or a catholic doctrine, these are just man induced and made isn't it? These are camps rivers and streams which we made up (similar toPharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes) but there is only One Truth, One Way and One Life. They didn't see and recognise Truth when it was standing right in front of them. Why? They were too busy in traditions, philosophies and spiritism, arguing and debating what they thought mattered or is important to be religious. They lost sight of the main commandments and the basic belief in God and God's heart towards people. Then came Truth... the One who was with the Father, the very One who is the Word which they have studied and read all their lives. Luke 6:17... The Truth spoke, the Word of God manifested and told everyone .. not just the Pharisees and experts in scripture what Truth is. In Matthew, its even more compelling.. Jesus said you have said and taught... but I say this is the Truth... Blessed are the poor and persecuted, do not return evil for evil instead love people who go against you, its not about possessions, going the extra mile nor getting struck on the cheek... its about love. Love does not its own pleasures, think about the extra mile or consider getting even. Love does not do good to those who do good to you only. Do not judge others because only the One who is the Truth can judge, because only the worthy One of God who all authority has been given unto.. has the ability to pass the righteous judgement. This is important as you can spend your all Christian thinking you need to judge and defend Truth, does Truth need defending? or rather are you defending your own esteem and belief? Rather than spending your time loving and building others up in the faith. If you judge and see others as less than you are, how can you love them without presuming and condemning them? And if you do not love, how do you know and fellow with God who is love and made you in the image of him. Jesus did not come to earth to condemn... condemnation is for later and Him alone carries it out. I think verse 46 really hits the nail spot on. The focus should be on Jesus and his commandments and not sin. There's just one doctrine - Jesus Christ is Lord! His life his words and his actions reveals the Father and the mystery of life has been revealed. It is good news and goodwill towards all men. If a theology / idea / saying doesn't line up with Jesus... it isn't Truth. If there are false teachings, well...test the teachings and fruits? If it doesn't line up with Jesus' teachings (remember we have One teacher) well..walk away and don't believe in it. But if it does, just believe and be in faith. Opposing one another especially others who are Christians and honouring the name and life of Jesus, is something else altogether... your last four paragraphs do not sound like something Christ followers would say, to be honest there is a lot of self in it. The bible says "the goodness of God (the love of Christ) brings men to repentance.. how is the goodness of God represented in the words below my dear brother, do consider. Jesus said there is nothing done in darkness that will not be revealed in the light.

If anyone posts anything other than the above four topics in this thread, your post will be ignored by me.

And everyone participating needs to be forthright about their position. No playing games.

If you cannot meet the above requirements for discussion, then the discussion is over. I will not debate with someone who is just throwing random things out there, or who does not respond to the questions or comments that are brought up, or who is not completely honest about their position. It is a total waste of time if you're just here to spread your NAR doctrine.

Those of us who oppose NAR doctrine, let's not take this discussion in other directions either. We're here to show those caught up in false doctrine the truth. It's their choice what they want to do with it.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Hi Arwen,

I came across this discussion and found it interesting because I had no clue of what a NAR doctrine was or had existed. Upon googling it, I realise it refers to a group called New Apostolic Reformation and is often associated with heresies and false teaching. After reading more into it, I realised I'm more confused than ever. Aren't everyone believing the same thing? In one spirit, in one Faith and in one Christ? I mean where's the difference? Hmm.. perhaps my answers to the questions below would better represent where I'm coming from.

Unfortunately, not everyone does believe the same thing. The differences are subtle -- and they have to do with beliefs about our purposes on earth, beliefs about Jesus, beliefs about the gospel, beliefs about the Second Coming of Jesus, and beliefs about the end times, beliefs and practices about spiritual gifts and manifestations, etc.

For example, it's one thing to say that Jesus was fully God and fully human. It is another to say that Jesus was only human.
It's one thing to say that the world will not be right until Jesus comes back, and that He will restore all things. It is another to say that Christians with special powers will take the world by force for Christ, and that Jesus can't return until this happens.

It's one thing to say that healing is a gift that is still for today, and that God chooses when and whether someone is healed. It is another thing to state that all persons have to be healed because it is guaranteed that they will be.

It's one thing to preach that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. It's another to preach signs and wonders.

1.) Do Christians still have a sinful nature after they are saved, and can we still sin?

Nope. According to Paul - What was normal to men previously.. Greed, anger, bitterness, lust, evil desires, earthly passions, idolatries, abusive language, slander, malice (the old man) ... is dead / crucified with Christ. By faith we are justified and redeemed by the blood of Jesus and now ... a new creation. It is now natural for the renewed mind / man who lives in Christ and in His Spirit to have peace, steadfastness, patience, kindness, mercy, pure hearts, humility an most of all love.

Can we still sin? Well... it's an individual's privilege to do so... but why would we now that it has become unnatural? I think its when a person who believes that Jesus is truly Lord, by faith goes through baptism believing it calls to death the old man and raises a new man which is in Christ, by grace .. the person is born again. Although... before Christ died he told a whole bunch of people to "go and sin no more" meaning... stop sinning. He wouldn't say that if it wasn't possible right? This was even before He ascend to heaven with his blood and placed it on the mercy seat.

Jesus did tell people to go and sin no more....but I don't know that by that He meant that it is impossible for them to sin again, or that it is even possible for them to never sin again. It is one thing to live in such a way where a person is trying to avoid sinning, living by the Spirit as much as possible, and changing sinful ways of doing things.

It is another thing to claim that a Christian is completely without sin, and cannot sin anymore. And to declare that they've never committed any sin whatsoever since they became a Christian.

With the first, the person doesn't claim they don't sin anymore. With the second, they do. That is the difference, and I think it is an important distinction.

2.) Did Jesus give up being God during the incarnation? Did He lay aside His deity and all His divine powers and do all miracles only as a man who was empowered by the Holy Spirit?

Give up being God? Not sure who says that. No Jesus didn't give up being God. He knew He was the Son of God. He knew who He was and people didn't know and took offence at what He said because it was against everything they were taught by the religious experts and teachers for years and years. But he did not let that affect who He was and He knew the Father and did whatever the Father did and said whatever the Father said. To him be all glory!

Many in the NAR movement teach that Jesus was once God, then He became human and laid aside His deity while on earth (gave up being God), and did everything as only a man who was empowered by the Holy Spirit. So, I'm glad that you do not agree with that teaching.

That being said, I'm not sure what those, who are opposing the NAR doctrine (as if there are any other doctrines outside Christ) are saying about this. That Jesus was God when He was on earth with full divine powers and he did not need or possess the Holy Spirit? That doesn't sound right as well.

What I am saying is that the NAR teaching that Jesus gave up being God while on earth is false. I believe that while Jesus was on earth, He was fully God and fully human. The NAR teaches that Jesus was just human while on earth. Do you see the difference?

Again, no one here is denying Jesus' humanity. Yes, Jesus was fully human. I'm not saying that Jesus didn't need or possess the Holy Spirit while on earth. I just object to the teaching that Jesus was just human, and that He did everything only as a man who was empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was in the flesh and walked earth as a man. He wasn't a vision or figment of imagination. In fact, He may be still in flesh.... If he was God on earth... Satan wouldn't be able to tempt him right? Satan can't tempt God. If Jesus fulfil the scriptures and the law as God ... then the covenant and the promise would not be for the rest of mankind? Only a man could fulfil ALL the laws of Moses in Deuteronomy and thus achieve the blessings and favour of God and then become the perfect sacrifice. He achieved what Adam could not. As much as I understand why people are afraid of statements which takes away the deity in Jesus... I also am concerned people do not understand the human in Jesus... it heads down the path of believing Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh.. It would not be possible to pick up our cross and follow him if He did those everything He did as God... He wouldn't be a role model for us then but rather only God could have done that... we being humans... will continue to sin...be subject to fear... under the influence of the devil etc etc. You see what I mean?

No one is claiming that Jesus was just God. He was fully human, yes. But He was also fully God.

Again, the answer to all of this is the hypostatic union.

Hypostatic Union | What is Hypostatic Union? | Define Hypostatic Union | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
What Is the Hypostatic Union? | Desiring God
What is the hypostatic union? How can Jesus be both God and man at the same time?
http://www.theopedia.com/Two_natures_of_Jesus

You can google the term and you'll come up with more websites These are just some of them.

Those who say that Jesus was just a man while on earth deny the hypostatic union. They say that Jesus just had one nature while on earth, human.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Hi Guys,

Sorry I had to cut short the last post as my first posting got timed out or something... Anyway, here's some thoughts on the last question.

3.) Whether or not healing is guaranteed in the atonement

Healing has been a touchy topic for decades, much have been argued since people got healed in churches or after having a Christian pray for them since early 400 AD. Simply because there are people who don't get healed immediately and people that do. What do we make of this then? I would suggest that Jesus healed all and numerous people during his ministry, Paul healed many in Jesus's name and authority to the extent of handkerchiefs and aprons touching Paul were brought to the sick, they recovered and demons got driven out, Peter healed too. James says the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick and the Lord will raise him up. Jesus says this in Mark, those who believe.. they will place their hands on the sick and they will be well. Honestly? With regards to healing... the bible says that you are just to believe. It doesn't say the atonement guarantee healing but it says you need to believe and lay your hands on the sick. My point is that it doesn't say to think or debate about it because if we do... how can we have faith?

I'm not against spiritual gifts today. The issue isn't whether or not God still heals today. (That is a different topic).

The issue here is that some are saying that healing is guaranteed in the atonement in the same way that forgiveness of sins is guaranteed in the atonement. This means that some teach that anytime that someone is sick, if any Christian prays for them, that person has to get better. Therefore, if the person doesn't get well, then either the person who is sick is blamed for not having enough faith, or the people praying are blamed for not having enough faith. It doesn't take into account that God is sovereign, and that sometimes He chooses not to heal someone in this lifetime. Sometimes He chooses to take the person home to be with Him.

So it sounds like you agree that healing is not guaranteed in the atonement.

It's simple but I'm afraid we've complicated it. You are a Christian, a born again brand new creation in Christ. He is in you and with you. Your actions abide in Him according to His Word and His Holy Spirit. Your mind and thoughts are towards Him and all other thoughts which are not in the bible (example : God doesn't heal anymore, there is a purpose for this person being sick...) should be cast down as self preserving to the knowledge of the One who you already gave your life to. Therefore, having this Christlike mindset and the love which you have for God and others. You pray for the sick to be healed because they have the same value as you (perhaps even greater) love them sincerely without an agenda and just let God do the rest. Too much thinking and rationalising is counter-productive in this sense.

Again, I'm not arguing against praying for the sick. All I'm saying is that I do not believe that healing is guaranteed in the atonement.

Of course people know that there are / were preachers out there who have not steward this praying for the sick properly. But that does not give us an excuse to be angry with them or doubt the bible. You're called only to believe in Jesus Christ being the Lord of all things and being obeying his commandments. To be renewed and transformed into the image of Christ which you were called to. In summary, why wonder if healing is guaranteed? Is there a motive for this?

It's because there are Christians out there who teach that it is guaranteed in the atonement, and it is false theology. It is harmful to those who pray for someone and the person doesn't get better. It makes them feel like either they did something wrong, or God doesn't love them, or whatever. It also makes physical healing part of the gospel. It leads people astray. That is why I am concerned about this teaching.

Arwen - I don't think anyone is playing games out here. Anyone who is concerned enough to log in and share their views to the glory of Jesus Christ the Son and ultimately to honour the Father by stirring each other towards good works and love...ain't playing games. People who are looking to play games... well.. would play games on the internet rather than spend time to write in this forum.

I didn't mean that they want to play literal games on here. The comment on playing games on here had to do with the behavior of one individual, and I don't really want to get into that right now. All I can say is to read over this thread and the "People say I'm crazy" thread, and hopefully you will understand what I mean here.

I sincerely doubt there is a NAR doctrine or a protestant doctrine or a catholic doctrine, these are just man induced and made isn't it? These are camps rivers and streams which we made up (similar to

Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes) but there is only One Truth,

Doctrine just means teaching. So doctrines are collections of teachings. And there are specific teachings that various Christian groups hold to that other groups do not. Some groups have teachings that amount to heresy (things that oppose the One Truth that you mentioned). Some difference in doctrines (teachings) are very minor, and have to do with non-salvational topics.

Yes, there is only One Truth, but that doesn't prevent people from having different views on some topics. It also doesn't prevent people from believing something contrary to the One Truth, and thinking that it is the One Truth.

One Way and One Life. They didn't see and recognise Truth when it was standing right in front of them. Why? They were too busy in traditions, philosophies and spiritism, arguing and debating what they thought mattered or is important to be religious. They lost sight of the main commandments and the basic belief in God and God's heart towards people.

While you are right on some levels, we cannot just brush aside false teaching for the sake of unity. We have to have boundaries, otherwise anything and everything that claims to be Christian would be accepted as being orthodox (right). That is sort of the state that the Christian church is in now. Everything is being accepted, and people are believing in false gospels and a false Jesus.

The Bible doesn't tell us to ignore false doctrine. It actually warns about false teachings.

Then came Truth... the One who was with the Father, the very One who is the Word which they have studied and read all their lives. Luke 6:17... The Truth spoke, the Word of God manifested and told everyone .. not just the Pharisees and experts in scripture what Truth is. In Matthew, its even more compelling.. Jesus said you have said and taught... but I say this is the Truth... Blessed are the poor and persecuted, do not return evil for evil instead love people who go against you, its not about possessions, going the extra mile nor getting struck on the cheek... its about love. Love does not its own pleasures, think about the extra mile or consider getting even. Love does not do good to those who do good to you only. Do not judge others because only the One who is the Truth can judge, because only the worthy One of God who all authority has been given unto.. has the ability to pass the righteous judgement. This is important as you can spend your all Christian thinking you need to judge and defend Truth, does Truth need defending?

It does need defending when there are people who speak against it.....and where it has the potential for many to be led astray by it.

I'm not trying to judge other people here. Rather, I am trying to judge doctrine (teachings).

or rather are you defending your own esteem and belief? Rather than spending your time loving and building others up in the faith. If you judge and see others as less than you are, how can you love them without presuming and condemning them?

I never said that anyone was less than I am. I don't believe that anyone is. I don't think that anyone here is less than me.

I'll have to finish the rest later.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

And if you do not love, how do you know and fellow with God who is love and made you in the image of him. Jesus did not come to earth to condemn... condemnation is for later and Him alone carries it out. I think verse 46 really hits the nail spot on. The focus should be on Jesus and his commandments and not sin.

Sin is a doctrine we must still deal with, and it cannot be ignored. Yes, we should also focus on Jesus' commandments, but we should not focus on those to the exclusion of a discussion about sin.

There's just one doctrine - Jesus Christ is Lord! His life his words and his actions reveals the Father and the mystery of life has been revealed. It is good news and goodwill towards all men. If a theology / idea / saying doesn't line up with Jesus... it isn't Truth.

Agreed...which is why we should warn people about teachings that claim to be Christian in name, but that do not line up with His truth.

If there are false teachings, well...test the teachings and fruits? If it doesn't line up with Jesus' teachings (remember we have One teacher) well..walk away and don't believe in it. But if it does, just believe and be in faith.

And not warn others that they could be under false teaching?

Opposing one another especially others who are Christians and honouring the name and life of Jesus, is something else altogether... your last four paragraphs do not sound like something Christ followers would say, to be honest there is a lot of self in it. The bible says "the goodness of God (the love of Christ) brings men to repentance.. how is the goodness of God represented in the words below my dear brother, do consider. Jesus said there is nothing done in darkness that will not be revealed in the light.

If anyone posts anything other than the above four topics in this thread, your post will be ignored by me.

And everyone participating needs to be forthright about their position. No playing games.

If you cannot meet the above requirements for discussion, then the discussion is over. I will not debate with someone who is just throwing random things out there, or who does not respond to the questions or comments that are brought up, or who is not completely honest about their position. It is a total waste of time if you're just here to spread your NAR doctrine.

Those of us who oppose NAR doctrine, let's not take this discussion in other directions either. We're here to show those caught up in false doctrine the truth. It's their choice what they want to do with it.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. You are right...I have sinned here, and I have conducted myself in a way that is not loving and is not Christlike. I said what I did because I was annoyed at how one person was conducting themselves on this board, and I should not have said it. I am sorry to all, especially to Simiel.

I just do not want to talk to someone who isn't taking this discussion seriously.

 

[JamesChen]

Father we just thank you that your grace is with us. We're saved by it and its Your grace, Your love and Your power which calls us to You. We were all once blind but by Your grace we can now see and we so thank You for Your willingness to just lead us into The Way and so we just receive this grace today. We thank you for working good things in us and causing us to understand and grow into Your Son Jesus. Father, that through this discussion thread, we can talk and share Truth that would lead us into a deeper revelation and communion with You in our personal lives so that we can reveal Your glory because You're amazing. We give you thanks Father.

 

[JamesChen]

Thanks for your replies Arwen. Bless your heart dear brother. Regrettably, I'm in a another time-zone and there is almost a 12 hour difference I reckon, I would love to chat with you guys simultaneously. I can tell that there is a lot of concerns and safeguarding out there as I delve further into the opinions / reviews / teachings online. A lot which I previously had no clue about (which may be a good thing, perhaps) Thanks for allowing me to just share my heart on this.

I understand that there are teachings and ministers who may not represent the gospel well and perhaps in extremes, in either being too shepherding or too liberal but I believe its a Christian's responsibility to know that they are submitted to God and one another. We're connected as a family to the body of Christ and committed to each other and seeing ourselves as laying down our lives for each other because we have so many different directions and "cliques" which we identify ourselves with. It's important to remember we're all committed, humble, teachable and submitted to a common cause and a single Lord. Sometimes bad experiences, things that we read about or people even can influence our minds. We ought to be open enough and have the ability to correct each other in light of being part of the family. Hmm what I'm saying is that we all (this is not directed at anyone guys please don't hear me that way) are accounted to love each other and the people we correct ought to feel valued rather than devalued after we shared our hearts. You know what I mean? What I'm saying is that we need to learn how to love one another. If I use the scripture like a sword, waving it against everyone else except myself, I'm really not following Jesus am I? I think about stuff like that and pray that I can be a good steward of the grace of the gospel. I believe this actually creates a weakness in the church actually, not just talking about the NAR movement or anything but things like being overly judgemental with people in our own church, the speaker, the worship team and people whom we interact with on a daily basis. It does something to your heart and conscience...

Perhaps I can illustrate with this 1 Cor 13 says : Though I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but I do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. I've seen people use this scripture to judge people on speaking in tongues. This scripture isn't meant for you to decide who is a cymbal or who is a gong! Paul is directing us to become love and not determine who is not love. Jesus said, judge not lest you be judged. What I mean is, if I find that a brother is being led into wrong theology, I need to do it in love. First I would speak with him without judging and assuming. Get to know him, his life and talk to him and share with him about my life as well. If He decides to tell me (without me presuming) that he believes that Jesus was only a human and not God whilst on earth... I would correct him with scripture to show approve the Word of God. Matthew 7 actually warns against judging without love. Let's put it this way, I can see a brother walking down the road and being friendly and close to a woman that is not his wife. I don't say in my heart "oh I bet he's cheating". He may be comforting a fellow sister or that may be his real sister! Hope this makes sense because this actually protects you or guards your heart in the second commandment. It's never about being right but walking in righteousness in Christ Jesus. Just the idea of knowing that you're right and others are wrong can shift your heart of out the two commandments Jesus gave us and it turns us into a persecuting lawyer and not even realise.. with this becoming normal. Imagine if everyone in the church did that. I believe its a design to get Christians to fall both sides. Don't be unaware of his devices, just one little need to be right.. is a fall waiting to happen. We all either build Jesus' Kingdom or Pharaoh's Kingdom where its a place of bondage, trapped in the muck and mire of sin and death but we bring people into Jesus' Kingdom, putting to death the flesh and living by the Spirit, as sons and daughters, adopting them into the family and to the Father. Towards the promise land! Anyway, I'm getting side tracked, not sure why but this was in my heart this morning. Thanks for letting me share this.

Unfortunately, not everyone does believe the same thing. The differences are subtle -- and they have to do with beliefs about our purposes on earth, beliefs about Jesus, beliefs about the gospel, beliefs about the Second Coming of Jesus, and beliefs about the end times, beliefs and practices about spiritual gifts and manifestations, etc.

For example, it's one thing to say that Jesus was fully God and fully human. It is another to say that Jesus was only human.
It's one thing to say that the world will not be right until Jesus comes back, and that He will restore all things. It is another to say that Christians with special powers will take the world by force for Christ, and that Jesus can't return until this happens.

It's one thing to say that healing is a gift that is still for today, and that God chooses when and whether someone is healed. It is another thing to state that all persons have to be healed because it is guaranteed that they will be.

It's one thing to preach that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. It's another to preach signs and wonders.

Hmmm I can't say I am well aware of what teachings are out there although I've tried my best today to read and catch up on the issues which are being discussed on the NAR movement. So bear with me and guide me. I think we have to view the big picture here. I honestly can't see that they denied the deity of Christ. Before I go on, let me give a more colour, I read various warnings and well... "anti" NAR Christians cries and it leads to this preach named Bill Johnson's teaching on Christ functioning as a human with the fullness of the Holy Spirit and not as God. How Christ emptied himself etc etc. I then proceeded to listen to his sermons (there are loads on youtube apparently, wasn't hard to find) Here's my thoughts, what he says are certainly thought provoking but I'm not sure if they are "another gospel" per se. He's mentioned a few times that Jesus is eternally God, he is God, he was God and always will be....
If I can just summarise what I gather ... it would be that he's believes the church can be empowered by the Holy Spirit just as how the apostles was and perhaps more because of the verse "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father"

That isn't a false teaching is it? I don't see it as taking the gospel away from Christ but another part of the body of Christ. The part which focuses on faith that the sick will be healed, signs and wonders following the believers, to reclaim the market place, spreading the Word to the various places. It's difficult to see what's the error if it encourages believers to pray for the sick, believe that God is the Father who loves them, walk into mission trips / dark alleys without fear. I did disagree with his teaching on prosperity and God wanting his children to prosper but I can hear it in a ear of grace and love without feeling offended knowing that he wanted people gain influence and affluence and in doing so spread God's Word and give back to those in need. You see, its not a wrong teaching as the bible states in many places actually, that God wishes to bless us but the Christian's concern is whether people know how to steward this grace and teaching properly.... can actually cause the very Christian to stumble and speak against the teaching. Rather, if I was in the congregation, I would speak to people around after the sermon about the importance of giving thanks to God always and Jesus reminding us in many instances to not chase after worldly possessions or worry about these things without saying that it is a wrong teaching by Bill. Not sure if this makes sense.... You see, I can complain to others after the service about Bill being a false teacher and not preaching soberly or that he's in it for the money, his god is money, what about those who are unemployed for the past year etc etc... a lot can be presumed when we step out of love! He may not have that motive in his heart at all! But trying to encourage confidence in Christ and being positive in all situations and believing God is for you and not against you. This reminds me of John 21 where Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep and to follow him but Peter turned around and said "what about him?"(I'm guessing Peter was burdened by his calling and wondering why Jesus didnt place the same burden on the disciple Jesus loved) Jesus says in a rebuke I believe (wouldn't be the first time for Peter) What concern is that of yours when I've told you to follow me? See I'm called to know, dwell and be a testimony for the Truth and not decide the position of someone's heart (judge) and condemn others. If I do that often enough, its seed will grow in me. I don't know if you see what I mean. Hrmm if you guys could, perhaps you could share with me some specific teachings on youtube or something which I can listen to tomorrow. The ones I've heard, Bill mentioned "don't get me wrong, He's eternally God and always will be" suggests he believes Jesus is always God.

Jesus did tell people to go and sin no more....but I don't know that by that He meant that it is impossible for them to sin again, or that it is even possible for them to never sin again. It is one thing to live in such a way where a person is trying to avoid sinning, living by the Spirit as much as possible, and changing sinful ways of doing things.

It is another thing to claim that a Christian is completely without sin, and cannot sin anymore. And to declare that they've never committed any sin whatsoever since they became a Christian.

With the first, the person doesn't claim they don't sin anymore. With the second, they do. That is the difference, and I think it is an important distinction.

Didn't come across this one... but i'm sure that's not what they meant? It would be hard to think any church / persons would claim they cannot sin anymore in that regard. Perhaps again this was presumed upon? I would listen to the entire message and other messages by that person to test that spirit.





Many in the NAR movement teach that Jesus was once God, then He became human and laid aside His deity while on earth (gave up being God), and did everything as only a man who was empowered by the Holy Spirit. So, I'm glad that you do not agree with that teaching.


What I am saying is that the NAR teaching that Jesus gave up being God while on earth is false. I believe that while Jesus was on earth, He was fully God and fully human. The NAR teaches that Jesus was just human while on earth. Do you see the difference?

Again, no one here is denying Jesus' humanity. Yes, Jesus was fully human. I'm not saying that Jesus didn't need or possess the Holy Spirit while on earth. I just object to the teaching that Jesus was just human, and that He did everything only as a man who was empowered by the Holy Spirit.


No one is claiming that Jesus was just God. He was fully human, yes. But He was also fully God.

Again, the answer to all of this is the hypostatic union.

Hypostatic Union | What is Hypostatic Union? | Define Hypostatic Union | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
What Is the Hypostatic Union? | Desiring God
What is the hypostatic union? How can Jesus be both God and man at the same time?
http://www.theopedia.com/Two_natures_of_Jesus

You can google the term and you'll come up with more websites These are just some of them.

Those who say that Jesus was just a man while on earth deny the hypostatic union. They say that Jesus just had one nature while on earth, human.

 

[my_adonai_]

Does the bible call us Saints or Sinners?

Does Paul say, To the sinners in Corinth, or to the Saints in Corinth?

and who are Saints? Do they live according to their past or according to Christ?

Do saints habitually sin? or make excuses of sin? Did not Christ die ONCE for them?

And does not the word of GOD say, that after a person repents, and goes about Sinning again, There is indeed left no more sacrifice for sin anymore but just a fiery indignation and fear of Gods wrath?

Has not the word of GOD taught us how to live a life that pleases GOD? what indeed is stopping us from living a Holy life when we have
1) THE HOLY SPIRIT
2) THE WORD OF GOD

For i know GOD calls me His Child, a sinner is not His Child, but a saint is and it is HE is who HE is pleased with.
Psa 16:3 But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.


Did not Christ come to bring sinners to Repentance ie Change the way they live, think, say so they may live as HE wants, Think as HE wants, Do as HE wants(saints do this)..

By your words you will be justified, and condemned.

Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Gal 5:10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Gal 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Jas 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jas 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jas 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jas 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jas 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.


God bless..

 

[my_adonai_]

Do we discuss the things of Christ so WE may be right? Or that HE may be right!!.

What is the Holy Spirit telling you? and not your Logic, reasoning etc etc..

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

But i do say that evenwhen we think that The churches you go to are correct in ALL the theology, you will soon get to know with the Help of the Holy SPIRIT the blantant LIES that some of the doctrines they have is false.

I mean look up the following features and measure up your church or your doctrine with:
2Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

1) Does the Holy Spirit move in your church? Prophesying exists? Speaking Tongues and other Manifestations of the Holy Spirit?
2) Do they preach doctrines that draws man to GOD through Christ or draw man to theology?
3) Is the Church growing in DISCIPLES?
4) Are people meeting GOD?
5) Do people see the fruit of their works in The Lords House?
6) Has your Church turned into a den of thieves?
7) Do you hold on to Religious doctrines whereby in them does not HELP YOU AT ALL to be free of Sin?
8) Is there LIFE in those doctrines?
9) Are the members Growing more Religious(trapped by the law) or Christ?
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
10) Are people living double lives? Is the Fear of GOD ever present in the House of GOD?
11) Is there Brotherly Love
12) Are the gifts of Evangelism, Pastors, Prophets, Teaching present?
13) and much moreeee


If it is a new church, then yes some of those who would not be there, but if it is a old church, then there something ye are not doing right. Either it is the pastor, or the Doctrine. And the pastor is the doctrine.

As the word of God says

He will hit the Shepherd so that the Sheep may scatter.

Hit the shepherd with Lies and You will have a flesh view of things, where there is NO HOLY SPIRIT, OR TRUTH. Just plain old theology that can kill people or stunt their Growth of CHRIST and close relationship with the HOLY SPIRIT..

 

[JamesChen]

Hi Arwen - I understand where you're coming from and I did a little more reading /researching on this. Here's some of my takeaways. The word guarantee is key I suppose. I think it comes from the enthusiasm more than a false teaching which intends to deceive. According to the faith healers, it is based on the word sozo (correct me if I'm wrong). Where it is written, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature (creature? really?). The one who believes and is baptised will be saved (sozo) but the one who does not believe will be condemned. The word saved or suzo in the greek, has several meanings / interpretations. It occurs 106 times in the New Testament and means to save, rescue, deliver, to heal, to be in right relationship with God, keep preserved safe and unharmed. I believe the basis for teaching this is from this verse. The one who believes and is baptised, will be healed. Whilst its not scripturally incorrect and serves as a point of faith of the believer that God will keep them safe and sound, healed, preserved, delivered and restored. However, I personally would not use it as an examination of one's faith or salvation, that is to say, the result of whether or not the sick being healed is the evidence of salvation (atonement).

I would understand why it would be taught this way. Because of trying to establish a point of faith.
Often, faith healers would refer to Matthew 17:14 where the disciples (after being given the authority over evil spirits) could not heal / cast out the demon. I found this episode intriguing to be honest. Jesus said to everyone "You unbelieving and perverse generation! How much longer must I be with you? Bring him to me." Jesus rebuked and out came the demon and boy was healed. In private the disciples asked why couldn't they cast it out? Jesus' reply was simple "It was because of your little faith" Basically a small amount of faith will move mountains and nothing is impossible. It doesn't help that the past few chapters, Jesus were disappointed with the level of faith in the disciples too... what with the worry for bread and being washed up in the storm. In Luke Jesus said when the Son of Man comes back.. would he find anyone with faith. As you can see, the lack of faith is something people don't want to be caught in. Hence having faith in Jesus and the Father is really important. To be fully convinced that Jesus is Lord and to not have unbelief within your heart.

Hence, when praying for the sick to recover, people want to remain in as much faith as possible and have no unbelief. That's cool. But problem with saying they will definitely be healed with this sort of faith and conviction is that well.. quite simply .. sometimes people don't get healed. And the problem with praying without faith (ie) thinking God something heals and sometime doesn't... puts you in unbelief that God will heal / cast out demons.. like the disciples.
To make matters more uncomfortable, James says the prayer of faith shall save the sick! Hence, no one wants to be near / or have a smidgen of unbelief when they pray for the sick (assuming they want the sick to get well)!!

I'm not convinced though that Mark 16 : 16 actually refers to being healed ONLY. It may also mean saved in terms of the soul being keep or healed or restored. Why? simply because you don't need to be a believer of the gospel or be baptised to be healed by God. It's God grace that heals. Jesus healed some people whom the bible did not mention were believers or had been baptised - The guy with the withered hand, the blind guy who didn't even know who Jesus was. Peter healing the lame guy outside the temple. I do believe that when praying for the sick, you should be fully convinced that God will heal them and be in faith and no unbelief. I do believe too that the believer first needs to know God and be in a relationship with the Father and Lord Jesus Christ. Otherwise, people with evil spirits may jump on you and beat you up! (Acts 19) Using the phrase "in Jesus Name!" is not abracadabra! Also, having faith has to be in and through love. For all of us were called by grace to the freedom which is in Christ Jesus, this freedom is not the freedom to indulge in ourselves but through love, serve one another. We live by the Spirit and its fruits, therefore practice love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness and self control. This means you are not self seeking (attention), self justifying (your esteem), self promoting (selfish). Having faith through love for one another, God's grace is manifested and I believe the sick are healed by this grace.

I understand that there are different motives which can stem out of this. Does God still heal then when people step out of love and faith? Absolutely. It's grace of God isn't it? But should you remain in faith and love? Absolutely too. Because the bible tells you so.

So.. are faith healers, word of faith people teaching false theology? I can't see that they are. It's important to have total faith and no unbelief when praying for the sick. I understand God is sovereign but Jesus called people perverse when they cast out demons without faith. Was it the will of God to heal the boy? Yes, Jesus showed it. Could the disciples heal the boy? No. Did God want the boy healed? Yes. But could the disciples do it? No. Why? Jesus said it was because of their lack of faith or their unbelief. It's not a whatever will be will be situation. It is a unbelief and lack of faith prevents the disciples from healing / casting out demons despite it being God's Will situation.

Ok... Perhaps its fitting for me to share a personal testimony at this point. I come from a relatively conservative background and the church I'm currently attending is currently of a brethren denomination. 2 weeks ago, I had news that a non-Christian friend was hospitalised and suffered a miscarriage. The wife and I were obviously sad to hear the news and wanted to pray for her. I was less sad than my wife for some reason (I have no idea) but knew I had to / relented to pray (you know one of those prayers without much conviction) for comfort and God's peace during this time of loss and pain. Just when I wanted to pray, I heard a question in my head - something outside my own thoughts. It asked "why aren't you praying for the child to relive?" "Ask your wife to lay hands on her and pray that the baby lives again". I brushed it away as this would be a stretch of faith even if the person was a Christian! But it bugged me so I decided to say a simple prayer to myself " Lord I pray that you would allow the child to live again. You're the giver of life and thank You for giving life to the child In Jesus Name I ask of this. Amen"

A week later, my wife was overjoyed to hear that the baby was still alive and the mum was of course extremely thankful and excited at the miracle! She attributed it to "Guang Yin" (a chinese female fertility goddess I think) and was beaming with joy and thankfulness to Guan Ying. Now.... I was amazed and shocked. Perhaps more so than the mum herself because of what I heard and prayed. At the same time, I was convicted because I did not have the faith and love to go lay hands and pray for her (nor did I tell anyone else) I felt as though I've sinned! Surely it was God's Will and grace to let the child relive! Had I obeyed and be in total faith, I would have been a good testimony towards the grace and love of God! But rather now, she believes Guan Ying had granted her the miracle!

Here's the thing. If I had been in faith and went over to pray for the lady, I would be privileged to demonstrate God's goodness and love. And perhaps she would come to know God through this miracle and the baby who relived would have a great testimony. But I didn't and was convicted of my lack of obedience and faith and not stewarding His grace. I honestly believed I had sinned.

What if I had done so... and nothing happened and the child did not live again? I would encourage her and comfort her and still be in faith and love towards her. But in this instance, I probably would not be convicted of sin. God's grace and Will to give the baby life I believe is separate from my praying. But my lack of faith and obedience was sin. And I am the only person in the world right now who is the most convicted of that because I live with me and sleep with me... I know me. I know I should have been in faith more than being in "self". When you are "in self", you miss the Will of God and the opportunity to glorify Him with your life.

I'm not against spiritual gifts today. The issue isn't whether or not God still heals today. (That is a different topic).

The issue here is that some are saying that healing is guaranteed in the atonement in the same way that forgiveness of sins is guaranteed in the atonement. This means that some teach that anytime that someone is sick, if any Christian prays for them, that person has to get better. Therefore, if the person doesn't get well, then either the person who is sick is blamed for not having enough faith, or the people praying are blamed for not having enough faith. It doesn't take into account that God is sovereign, and that sometimes He chooses not to heal someone in this lifetime. Sometimes He chooses to take the person home to be with Him.

So it sounds like you agree that healing is not guaranteed in the atonement.
Again, I'm not arguing against praying for the sick. All I'm saying is that I do not believe that healing is guaranteed in the atonement.

It's because there are Christians out there who teach that it is guaranteed in the atonement, and it is false theology. It is harmful to those who pray for someone and the person doesn't get better. It makes them feel like either they did something wrong, or God doesn't love them, or whatever. It also makes physical healing part of the gospel. It leads people astray. That is why I am concerned about this teaching.




I didn't mean that they want to play literal games on here. The comment on playing games on here had to do with the behavior of one individual, and I don't really want to get into that right now. All I can say is to read over this thread and the "People say I'm crazy" thread, and hopefully you will understand what I mean here.

Doctrine just means teaching. So doctrines are collections of teachings. And there are specific teachings that various Christian groups hold to that other groups do not. Some groups have teachings that amount to heresy (things that oppose the One Truth that you mentioned). Some difference in doctrines (teachings) are very minor, and have to do with non-salvational topics.

Yes, there is only One Truth, but that doesn't prevent people from having different views on some topics. It also doesn't prevent people from believing something contrary to the One Truth, and thinking that it is the One Truth.


While you are right on some levels, we cannot just brush aside false teaching for the sake of unity. We have to have boundaries, otherwise anything and everything that claims to be Christian would be accepted as being orthodox (right). That is sort of the state that the Christian church is in now. Everything is being accepted, and people are believing in false gospels and a false Jesus.

The Bible doesn't tell us to ignore false doctrine. It actually warns about false teachings.


It does need defending when there are people who speak against it.....and where it has the potential for many to be led astray by it.

I'm not trying to judge other people here. Rather, I am trying to judge doctrine (teachings).


I never said that anyone was less than I am. I don't believe that anyone is. I don't think that anyone here is less than me.

[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]I'll have to finish the rest later.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Thanks for your replies Arwen. Bless your heart dear brother. Regrettably, I'm in a another time-zone and there is almost a 12 hour difference I reckon, I would love to chat with you guys simultaneously. I can tell that there is a lot of concerns and safeguarding out there as I delve further into the opinions / reviews / teachings online. A lot which I previously had no clue about (which may be a good thing, perhaps) Thanks for allowing me to just share my heart on this.

I understand that there are teachings and ministers who may not represent the gospel well and perhaps in extremes, in either being too shepherding or too liberal but I believe its a Christian's responsibility to know that they are submitted to God and one another.

Not all who preach "the gospel" are really preaching the biblical gospel. That is one of the main problems. Just because someone uses the name "Jesus" or because they use Christian words or the names of Christian concepts, and just because the quote from the Bible does not necessarily mean that their doctrine (teaching) is sound. For example, not everyone who uses the term "God" means the same thing by that word.

We're connected as a family to the body of Christ and committed to each other and seeing ourselves as laying down our lives for each other because we have so many different directions and "cliques" which we identify ourselves with.

It would be wonderful if everyone who claimed to be a Christian shared in the essentials of the Christian faith. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

It's important to remember we're all committed, humble, teachable and submitted to a common cause and a single Lord.

Again, this only applies to those who share in our belief in the essentials of the Christian faith. Otherwise, we have no common cause. Those who preach a different Jesus have a different gospel and a different Lord.

Sometimes bad experiences, things that we read about or people even can influence our minds. We ought to be open enough and have the ability to correct each other in light of being part of the family.

Yes, this would be great, and it only really works for those who are actually in Christ. Those who follow another Christ and another gospel will reject any correction that we try to bring.

Hmm what I'm saying is that we all (this is not directed at anyone guys please don't hear me that way) are accounted to love each other and the people we correct ought to feel valued rather than devalued after we shared our hearts. You know what I mean? What I'm saying is that we need to learn how to love one another. If I use the scripture like a sword, waving it against everyone else except myself, I'm really not following Jesus am I?

Yes, we need to do everything out of love. The problem is that sometimes the Internet isn't the best way to communicate with others, as we can't see non verbal communication, and we can't talk face to face. Also, it is impossible to see another person's heart (only God can).

For some, showing love to others means that people should never bring any word of correction to anyone. For them, it means that we should just accept everything people say, and just concentrate on what we have in common. But that's not really love, because it allows people to stay in their error.

So confronting others is a loving thing to do. The person receiving the correction may not feel loved by it. But love isn't really about feeling. Sure, it's nice to feel loved, but we cannot base love on only feelings. We will get into trouble if we do that. Love is a choice, and it means acting in the best interest even if the other person doesn't like it. There are ways of going about telling someone the truth that are better than others, of course. Yelling at someone and telling them that they are going to hell doesn't really seem to be loving. Nor is calling them an idiot, etc.

I think about stuff like that and pray that I can be a good steward of the grace of the gospel. I believe this actually creates a weakness in the church actually, not just talking about the NAR movement or anything but things like being overly judgemental with people in our own church, the speaker, the worship team and people whom we interact with on a daily basis. It does something to your heart and conscience...

There is a difference between judging doctrine and judging other people's salvation status. Discernment itself is a form of judgment, and it is a spiritual gift, and it is necessary. Making any kind of decision involves judgment. So you see, judgement isn't always bad. Yes, it can be. If we put ourselves in the place of God and tell someone that we know for sure that they are going to hell.

There is nothing wrong with evaluating doctrine or practices. If we don't do this, then the church gets into trouble because we end up accepting anything and everything that wants to come into the church. There is a fine line, and it all depends on what it is, how we are doing it, and whether or not we are examining ourselves and our own doctrines.

Perhaps I can illustrate with this 1 Cor 13 says : Though I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but I do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. I've seen people use this scripture to judge people on speaking in tongues. This scripture isn't meant for you to decide who is a cymbal or who is a gong! Paul is directing us to become love and not determine who is not love.

No one in this thread has done this.....it seems to me like you might be bringing in your experience you've had in other settings and reading things into this thread. Your points are valid, though. And, yes, that would be a misuse of the text there. This current thread, though, isn't about whether or not speaking in tongues is valid today.

Jesus said, judge not lest you be judged. What I mean is, if I find that a brother is being led into wrong theology, I need to do it in love. First I would speak with him without judging and assuming. Get to know him, his life and talk to him and share with him about my life as well. If He decides to tell me (without me presuming) that he believes that Jesus was only a human and not God whilst on earth... I would correct him with scripture to show approve the Word of God.

That works well in real life, but it is a little more difficult to do on an Internet discussion forum. I'm not saying we shouldn't love or get to know them, but an Internet forum is about discussion of topics. If someone posts something that is contrary to what Scripture says, then I think it is important to try to correct them with Scripture. If they ignore it, or if they continue to post false doctrine, and if they start multiple threads about it, etc., then you have to keep trying to bring correction. If they are not honest about themselves or they just seem to be posting random things, then you have to respond to them differently than if they seriously looked at the Scriptures you brought up and discussed the items with you. You would still do things out of love, but that expression of love is going to look differently. We also need to be wise about how we spend our time, and we have to be careful that we do not cast our pearls before swine. So there does come a time when we have to end the discussion with them...if they show that they are not going to listen to Scripture and reason.

As to the specific issue in this thread -- all I can do is to tell you to read all the posts in the "People Say I'm Crazy" thread as well as all the posts in this thread. No one here is simply making the assumption that someone does not believe that Jesus was God on earth. A certain person in these threads has said that multiple times. You can read those quotes yourself, as it has been quoted back to that person.

We have tried to correct him with Scripture, but it has proven to be fruitless.

Matthew 7 actually warns against judging without love. Let's put it this way, I can see a brother walking down the road and being friendly and close to a woman that is not his wife. I don't say in my heart "oh I bet he's cheating". He may be comforting a fellow sister or that may be his real sister! Hope this makes sense because this actually protects you or guards your heart in the second commandment.

I agree that it would be wrong to make assumptions like that. Unless the person actually says, "I want to sleep with her," you can't assume that the person has bad motives for doing something like that.

It's never about being right but walking in righteousness in Christ Jesus. Just the idea of knowing that you're right and others are wrong can shift your heart of out the two commandments Jesus gave us and it turns us into a persecuting lawyer and not even realise.. with this becoming normal. Imagine if everyone in the church did that. I believe its a design to get Christians to fall both sides. Don't be unaware of his devices, just one little need to be right.. is a fall waiting to happen.

I agree that it isn't about being right, and it is true that knowing that we are right can lead us into pride. It is something that we all have to guard against. No one is above falling in this area.

We all either build Jesus' Kingdom or Pharaoh's Kingdom where its a place of bondage, trapped in the muck and mire of sin and death but we bring people into Jesus' Kingdom, putting to death the flesh and living by the Spirit, as sons and daughters, adopting them into the family and to the Father. Towards the promise land! Anyway, I'm getting side tracked, not sure why but this was in my heart this morning. Thanks for letting me share this.

I think these are all good things to keep in mind, even though it isn't quite the subject of this thread.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Hmmm I can't say I am well aware of what teachings are out there although I've tried my best today to read and catch up on the issues which are being discussed on the NAR movement. So bear with me and guide me.

I shall try.

I think we have to view the big picture here. I honestly can't see that they denied the deity of Christ.

Many of them claim that Jesus was not God while on earth. They say that He laid His divinity/deity aside, and was only a human who was empowered by the Holy Spirit. To say that Jesus gave up being God while on earth is denying that the divinity of Jesus.

A person cannot claim that Jesus laid aside His deity when He came to earth, say that He was just a man empowered by the Holy Spirit -- and then turn around and say that Jesus is God. The two sentences are complete contradictions. To say that Jesus gave up being God and was just a man is to say that Jesus, at least while on earth, was not God.

Before I go on, let me give a more colour, I read various warnings and well... "anti" NAR Christians cries and it leads to this preach named Bill Johnson's teaching on Christ functioning as a human with the fullness of the Holy Spirit and not as God. How Christ emptied himself etc etc.

Right.

I then proceeded to listen to his sermons (there are loads on youtube apparently, wasn't hard to find) Here's my thoughts, what he says are certainly thought provoking but I'm not sure if they are "another gospel" per se. He's mentioned a few times that Jesus is eternally God, he is God, he was God and always will be....

Bill Johnson talks out of both sides of his mouth on this. He does sometimes make statements that affirm Jesus' deity. However, he continues to make statements that deny it. If he actually retracted his statements that say that Jesus laid aside His deity...that Jesus was just a man while on earth, then that would be one thing. But he has never retracted his statements.

At best, those listening to Bill Johnson receive a confused Christology from him. It's like he is teaching whatever fits with whatever he is trying to say.

If I can just summarise what I gather ... it would be that he's believes the church can be empowered by the Holy Spirit just as how the apostles was and perhaps more because of the verse "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father"

Yes, that is a big part of his teachings, and it seems to be the main teaching. He said once that he hoped there were witches in the audience of his church so that they could see all the miracles and signs and wonders, and then would come to Christ. He didn't say anything about the actual gospel. It is as if he is hoping to evangelize people through the performance of signs and wonders.

That isn't a false teaching is it? I don't see it as taking the gospel away from Christ but another part of the body of Christ.

In and of itself, simply teaching that we can be empowered by the Holy Spirit isn't false teaching. However, it can become a false gospel if this is the main thread of his teaching, and if it is what he preaches in place of the real gospel....if this is how he thinks people will get saved. Do you see the subtle twist to it?

The part which focuses on faith that the sick will be healed, signs and wonders following the believers, to reclaim the market place, spreading the Word to the various places. It's difficult to see what's the error if it encourages believers to pray for the sick, believe that God is the Father who loves them, walk into mission trips / dark alleys without fear.

The main problem is the emphasis with which he places on these things.

There is nothing wrong with praying for the sick, or even in the existence of signs and wonders in the church today. However, if these things become the main message in someone's ministry, then I think that is a problem. If there are more sermons on these things than on Jesus Christ, that is a huge problem. Another thing that occurs a lot in this movement is that they preach a lot on spiritual experiences -- things like visions of angels or other supernatural phenomena.

I also believe it is damaging to teach people that God will definitely heal all sickness, if we pray with enough faith.

I did disagree with his teaching on prosperity and God wanting his children to prosper but I can hear it in a ear of grace and love without feeling offended knowing that he wanted people gain influence and affluence and in doing so spread God's Word and give back to those in need.

The main problem with the prosperity teaching is that it isn't the real gospel. It gives people a false idea of who God is and what He does and what to expect from God. People want to hear that they are going to prosper. It's the kind of teaching that tickles itching ears. God never promises people that if they become Christian that they will get rich, or that they will get everything that they want. Again, God is not a vending machine that we can order and command about, just to do our bidding.

You see, its not a wrong teaching as the bible states in many places actually, that God wishes to bless us but the Christian's concern is whether people know how to steward this grace and teaching properly.... can actually cause the very Christian to stumble and speak against the teaching.

While there are passages that do speak of prosperity, these prosperity preachers take these passages out of context, and the result is ultimately harmful. This is especially true when it preys on people's greed. People are told that if they give a certain ministry a certain amount of money, God will reward them by giving them a certain amount x what they gave to the ministry.

Rather, if I was in the congregation, I would speak to people around after the sermon about the importance of giving thanks to God always and Jesus reminding us in many instances to not chase after worldly possessions or worry about these things without saying that it is a wrong teaching by Bill.

The problem is that if no one says "this person is a false teacher," many people will be deceived into thinking that what he is saying is just fine. People are often blind to what is happening, even if you try to go around to the congregation and remind them to give thanks to God and not to chase worldly possessions. People will most likely agree with you, but they will not be able to see that chasing possessions is just what they are doing.

Not sure if this makes sense.... You see, I can complain to others after the service about Bill being a false teacher and not preaching soberly or that he's in it for the money, his god is money, what about those who are unemployed for the past year etc etc...

If a person attended his service and thought he was a false teacher, I'm sure that they would not sit there and complain about the teaching. They might try to warn others that there is false teaching. Warning others isn't the same as complaining.

a lot can be presumed when we step out of love! He may not have that motive in his heart at all!

No one knows what Bill Johnson's motive is. That isn't for us to know. But what we do know is that some of his teachings are not biblically sound. I don't know if he is purposely deceiving people, or if he is deceived himself and doesn't realize that he is in error. I would suspect the latter, but I don't know for sure.

So, while we cannot evaluate the motive for someone teaching false doctrine, we can compare their teaching to Scripture and say, "this is not biblical." There is nothing wrong with doing this, and in fact, I think it is healthy for the church. Otherwise the church begins to accept all kinds of heresies, and no one says anything. Just a little leaven works through the whole dough.

But trying to encourage confidence in Christ and being positive in all situations and believing God is for you and not against you.

Again, that is fine as long as it doesn't become the main emphasis of a particular ministry. It can turn into ear tickling if people are told how wonderful they are, how much God loves them, etc. Yes, God loves us, but there is more to the gospel than this.

Demonic spirits also whisper sweet nothings into people's ears in order to entice them, puff them up, and get them to trust them. If you look at the New Age Movement, the demonic spirit guides all tell people basically the same thing -- how much they are loved by "god" and how important or special they are.

This reminds me of John 21 where Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep and to follow him but Peter turned around and said "what about him?"(I'm guessing Peter was burdened by his calling and wondering why Jesus didnt place the same burden on the disciple Jesus loved) Jesus says in a rebuke I believe (wouldn't be the first time for Peter) What concern is that of yours when I've told you to follow me? See I'm called to know, dwell and be a testimony for the Truth and not decide the position of someone's heart (judge) and condemn others.

Again, I'm advocating judging doctrine itself -- not what is in individual people's hearts. I don't know where anyone else stands with God. However, I can look at someone's doctrine and say that it is false doctrine. I can say that the teaching is theologically dangerous. I can say that it can and does lead some people astray.

If I do that often enough, its seed will grow in me. I don't know if you see what I mean. Hrmm if you guys could, perhaps you could share with me some specific teachings on youtube or something which I can listen to tomorrow. The ones I've heard, Bill mentioned "don't get me wrong, He's eternally God and always will be" suggests he believes Jesus is always God.

I guess if you have listened to several sermons by Bill Johnson and do not see anything wrong with his theology, then nothing that I will show you will make much difference.

Didn't come across this one... but i'm sure that's not what they meant?

If you talk to any student at the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry (or whatever it is called), they will indeed tell you that Christians cannot sin. When Jesus Culture recorded a song version of the Lord's Prayer, they left out the lines that refer to us sinning.

They do teach that a Christian cannot sin.

It would be hard to think any church / persons would claim they cannot sin anymore in that regard. Perhaps again this was presumed upon? I would listen to the entire message and other messages by that person to test that spirit.

Heresy Alert!!! Bethel Church, , Bill Johnson, Kris Vallotton, new Apostolic Reformation, Word Of Faith Falsely Teach Christians Do Not Sin! | The Shepherd/Guardian

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Does the bible call us Saints or Sinners?

It says we are both.

Does Paul say, To the sinners in Corinth, or to the Saints in Corinth?
and who are Saints? Do they live according to their past or according to Christ?

You'll get different answers on the question of what is a saint, depending on the particular teaching of your church. What my denomination teaches (and what most Protestant denominations teach) is that the saints are all believes in Jesus, both those who died and those who are alive. This does seem to be what the Bible teaches.

It just simply means that we are made righteous in Jesus Christ. We try not to sin, but that doesn't mean we are always successful. We all still sin sometimes.

Do saints habitually sin? or make excuses of sin? Did not Christ die ONCE for them?

We all do sin every day. I'm not saying that is a good thing. I'm not saying that we should be making excuses. But it is the truth....we do sin. The good news is that we do not make it into heaven via our ability not to sin. Jesus has died for our sins, and His blood covers us. This doesn't give us a license to sin all we want. But it does mean that we are not saved by our own works.

And does not the word of GOD say, that after a person repents, and goes about Sinning again, There is indeed left no more sacrifice for sin anymore but just a fiery indignation and fear of Gods wrath?

I guess you are referring to this passage:

Hebrews 10:26-31 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, [SUP]27 [/SUP]but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [SUP]29 [/SUP]How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? [SUP]30 [/SUP]For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” [SUP]31 [/SUP]It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

That doesn't say that if we sin at all that we cannot be forgiven. If it did mean that, then it would contradict other Scripture. It would also mean that Jesus' blood would mean nothing, and that we'd all go to hell as soon as we sinned at all, after we were saved....

Again, there is a difference between trying to follow the law, then falling short and purposely sinning because it is fun to do so. We don't intend to sin most of the time, but we end up sinning still. That is different from setting out to go sin.

Has not the word of GOD taught us how to live a life that pleases GOD? what indeed is stopping us from living a Holy life when we have
1) THE HOLY SPIRIT
2) THE WORD OF GOD

Because we still have the sinful nature, and we all still sin, even though we don't set out to do that. We do not treat everyone the way that they should be treated, and we do not love God perfectly, as we should. We try to do what pleases Him but sometimes we still do things we shouldn't do.

For i know GOD calls me His Child, a sinner is not His Child, but a saint is and it is HE is who HE is pleased with.
Psa 16:3 But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.

A person is only a saint if Jesus' blood covers them. Apart from Christ, we are all only sinners. Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Did not Christ come to bring sinners to Repentance ie Change the way they live, think, say so they may live as HE wants, Think as HE wants, Do as HE wants(saints do this)..

We are transformed, but that doesn't mean that we never ever sin, or that we have completely lost the ability to sin. We are not perfect, and we do not always do all that He wants perfectly, or think the way that He thinks, or live the way He wants us to live 100% of the time.

By your words you will be justified, and condemned.

Doesn't all justification come from faith in Jesus Christ, and is a result of God's grace towards us --- in the work on the cross?

If we were justified or condemned based on our ability to live up to God's law, then Jesus' death on the cross was for nothing.

Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Gal 5:10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Gal 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

As you didn't explain your interpretation of this passage, I can only guess at how you might be interpreting this. This passage doesn't mean that no Christian will ever sin. And it is actually saying that we are not justified by our ability to follow the law. Sure, it is also saying that grace is not a license to sin. We are supposed to love one another, but that doesn't mean that we do it perfectly every time.

Jas 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jas 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jas 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jas 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jas 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

God bless..

Again, I have to guess at why you quoted this particular passage. We aren't to delight in doing evil, or try to do evil, or even to not care if we do evil. We are to try to live the way that God wants us to. However, we are always going to fall short of the perfect standard. That is why we cannot save ourselves, and we cannot keep in the faith by just trying to abide by the Law. We're always going to fall short.

 

[Simiel]

Are you saying that because that's your life lived and since you haven't made it to that place. You say it's not possible? Are you putting your experience over biblical truth?

I don't think I have yet to see you put up any scriptures to back up what you say.