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S
There sure is a lot of threads that talk about this subject...it is interesting.
My friend, He has preordained, decreed, and predestined all things. This however does not make us robots, neither does it put the blame on God. Think about Israel and Esau, Peter and Judas, David and Saul, Issac and Ishmael, etc.
I'll help you with this view as simple as I will do. Man in his depraved nature in sin does not desire to follow God, his destined doom is destruction. But God before any person was born, chosen those who He would display His mercy and grace towards for His perfect wise purpose. You will find good back up scripture for this in John 6:35-47. We see that all that that the Father gave to Jesus will 1) come to Him, 2) believe 3) not be cast out 4) that He would not lose a single one 5) raise them up on the last day.
My friend, He has preordained, decreed, and predestined all things. This however does not make us robots, neither does it put the blame on God. Think about Israel and Esau, Peter and Judas, David and Saul, Issac and Ishmael, etc.
I'll help you with this view as simple as I will do. Man in his depraved nature in sin does not desire to follow God, his destined doom is destruction. But God before any person was born, chosen those who He would display His mercy and grace towards for His perfect wise purpose. You will find good back up scripture for this in John 6:35-47. We see that all that that the Father gave to Jesus will 1) come to Him, 2) believe 3) not be cast out 4) that He would not lose a single one 5) raise them up on the last day.
G
Liza, thank you for your input. I can appreciate that you understand that it is not completely relevant to devalue an atheists's opinion simply because he or she is an atheist. While the Christian perspective is that "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God,'" this does not automatically mean all atheists are fools, on the contrary, many atheists have put a lot of thinking into their position. I think there should be some respect on both sides.
I would agree that many atheists don't always consciously believe they are in a rebellion against their Creator, and for us to tell them that makes us look quite foolish. In general, it seems they are unwilling to submit to a Being who has more power and intelligence than themselves, although some do see the rationale behind belief in a Supreme being, but these are usually the agnostics rather than the atheists. Atheists have made a choice not to believe in God, some think they are doing it completely using logic, but many understand that it is not just a logical choice, but also an emotional one, it is volitional.
I would agree that many atheists don't always consciously believe they are in a rebellion against their Creator, and for us to tell them that makes us look quite foolish. In general, it seems they are unwilling to submit to a Being who has more power and intelligence than themselves, although some do see the rationale behind belief in a Supreme being, but these are usually the agnostics rather than the atheists. Atheists have made a choice not to believe in God, some think they are doing it completely using logic, but many understand that it is not just a logical choice, but also an emotional one, it is volitional.
C
Its like this.. no one will make it less God has mercy on a soul. A big lie from the enemy is to think we live or die to ourselves. When someone eyes are open to the fact that there is absolutely nothing one can do to save our self. That's when one calls on God with all their heart . A person has to get violent with their faith. This is where the fear and trembling comes in. All the sin has to go. He is faithful to clean a person white as snow.
The only problem with your explanation is that the text emphatically states that
God chose Jacob over Esau "before they were born or had done anything bad" (Ro 9:11),
including Esau rejecting his birthright and persecuting Jacob.
Not only that, the text goes on to state the reason God chose Jacob--"in order that
God's purpose in election might stand."
God chose Jacob over Esau for one reason, and one reason only, his own purpose.
The text plainly states that it had nothing to do with either Esau or Jacob.
Agreed, God hated Esau.
However, the word "hate" in the OT is not equivalent to revenge or wrath.
It means the lack of a favorable disposition toward.
And the NT makes clear God's choice was not based on anything Esau did--God chose Jacob
"before they were born, or had done anything bad."
You must reckon with the import of Ro 9:11-12.
Not so. . .
While Ro 9:10-13 shows the sovereignty of God in election,
Ro 9:18, 27, 30-33 applies the sovereignty of God to salvation also..
So Ro 9 is about choosing to be saved (vv. 18, 27, 30-33).
God chose Jacob over Esau "before they were born or had done anything bad" (Ro 9:11),
including Esau rejecting his birthright and persecuting Jacob.
Not only that, the text goes on to state the reason God chose Jacob--"in order that
God's purpose in election might stand."
God chose Jacob over Esau for one reason, and one reason only, his own purpose.
The text plainly states that it had nothing to do with either Esau or Jacob.
Agreed, God hated Esau.
However, the word "hate" in the OT is not equivalent to revenge or wrath.
It means the lack of a favorable disposition toward.
And the NT makes clear God's choice was not based on anything Esau did--God chose Jacob
"before they were born, or had done anything bad."
You must reckon with the import of Ro 9:11-12.
Not so. . .
While Ro 9:10-13 shows the sovereignty of God in election,
Ro 9:18, 27, 30-33 applies the sovereignty of God to salvation also..
So Ro 9 is about choosing to be saved (vv. 18, 27, 30-33).
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The scripture fulfilled is probably Psa 41:9. God foreknows what men will do but foreknowledge does not necessitate predetermination. God will judge men according to their own deeds, Rom 2:6, man will give account for his own self, own actions, Rom 14:12 and not judged by or made to give account for what God forced him to do against his own will.
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"GOD desires not to punish people but to see them turn back to HIM."
We must understand that GOD does not make and use someone and then destroys them, when HE is done. HE knows what HE is doing, even though we may not understand. And this is counted as faith through Kingdom Knowledge.
For example, in Paul's letter chapter 9, he is referring and answering about the Jews and from which tribe and through which descendant the promise of GOD to Abraham must be fulfilled. When GOD decides it has to happen this way as HE will and planned, it is then righteous and fair and all have to have faith in that, that GOD is Good and HIS will and purposes, HE does for the Good of every human race to be reconciled once again.
The ones who 'remain' stubborn not to believe that GOD's way which is proclaimed and has been conducted, in HIS just and fair justice established for everyone, are the ones perish without HIM. And we who believe, are to submit to that whether we like it or not but we have faith in all that has been spoken as knowledge believe.
Roughly it has been nearly 2014 years passed since HE gave the world, HIS Grace and Truth through LORD JESUS CHRIST. A very big gap of unmerited favor, for the entire human race to repent and believe and follow HIS SON. But when people remain stubborn and hardheaded and ignore and rebel against HIS simple saving Grace message, sadly they perish on their own choice
Today why many oppose to this simple message of Good News and peace of HIS, where HIS Power and Wisdom lies? Because GOD knows ahead of time HIS chosen ones, who would believe and follow HIS SON JESUS and who would not. Yet HE did hope 'the would not' will along the way, in a little way change their mind, chance after chance after chances.
After all of this begging, then finally one day comes HIS wrath, warned ahead of time, like a consuming fire that wipes out everything, without a trace of existence.
First of all, do we really believe and trust in HIM, when HE allows us to face tribulations and persecutions. Same as during emperor Nero's reign, when the innocent Christian were used as his scapegoats?
And again the same during the reign of the beast to come?
That's where faith kicks in, during test and trial of GOD for obedience and faithfulness, those whose rooted believes are in these cartoon stories and are truly of GOD's truth and one must be ready to lay down their lives in order for others to live and are surely accounted as worthy into HIS place of rest.
Are we really ready as Christian? Or are we just hypocrites all this while who have scraped through under Grace, not knowing and being ready, for what is ahead, heading our way, to test every foundations(denominations) with, 'wind', 'rain', 'flood'(tribulations and persecutions), (Matthew 7;25 and 27)?
We must understand that GOD does not make and use someone and then destroys them, when HE is done. HE knows what HE is doing, even though we may not understand. And this is counted as faith through Kingdom Knowledge.
For example, in Paul's letter chapter 9, he is referring and answering about the Jews and from which tribe and through which descendant the promise of GOD to Abraham must be fulfilled. When GOD decides it has to happen this way as HE will and planned, it is then righteous and fair and all have to have faith in that, that GOD is Good and HIS will and purposes, HE does for the Good of every human race to be reconciled once again.
The ones who 'remain' stubborn not to believe that GOD's way which is proclaimed and has been conducted, in HIS just and fair justice established for everyone, are the ones perish without HIM. And we who believe, are to submit to that whether we like it or not but we have faith in all that has been spoken as knowledge believe.
Roughly it has been nearly 2014 years passed since HE gave the world, HIS Grace and Truth through LORD JESUS CHRIST. A very big gap of unmerited favor, for the entire human race to repent and believe and follow HIS SON. But when people remain stubborn and hardheaded and ignore and rebel against HIS simple saving Grace message, sadly they perish on their own choice
Today why many oppose to this simple message of Good News and peace of HIS, where HIS Power and Wisdom lies? Because GOD knows ahead of time HIS chosen ones, who would believe and follow HIS SON JESUS and who would not. Yet HE did hope 'the would not' will along the way, in a little way change their mind, chance after chance after chances.
After all of this begging, then finally one day comes HIS wrath, warned ahead of time, like a consuming fire that wipes out everything, without a trace of existence.
First of all, do we really believe and trust in HIM, when HE allows us to face tribulations and persecutions. Same as during emperor Nero's reign, when the innocent Christian were used as his scapegoats?
And again the same during the reign of the beast to come?
That's where faith kicks in, during test and trial of GOD for obedience and faithfulness, those whose rooted believes are in these cartoon stories and are truly of GOD's truth and one must be ready to lay down their lives in order for others to live and are surely accounted as worthy into HIS place of rest.
Are we really ready as Christian? Or are we just hypocrites all this while who have scraped through under Grace, not knowing and being ready, for what is ahead, heading our way, to test every foundations(denominations) with, 'wind', 'rain', 'flood'(tribulations and persecutions), (Matthew 7;25 and 27)?
Well first of all I would argue that the sphere of his sovereignty is over all his creation including his creatures, (us mortals).
so then secondly yes God uses whom he wants for whatever purpose he wants.
Clearly scripture teaches this.
The argument Paul is making here is on Gods sovereign choice to save, that this act is totally not dependant on us but rather on Gods prior election and foreknowledge.
Why? So his glory is displayed in how he saves and how he judges.
and he uses many examples such as Pharoah and Rebbeca etc.
Next is to understand our notions of fairness. To say that it isn't fair or its wrong, or whatever is to defy scripture and substitute Gods word for our own ideology. Obviously it is hard to grasp this passage but scripture makes it very clear that God creates vessels for honour and vessels for dishonour. and God has full right to do that.
God in eternity past had a people, which means the exclusion of any others that were not his. however those that are excluded and those that are his both deserve Gods righteous judgement. But since God before time had a people his glory now not only is displayed in his righteous judgment but even more so in is undeserved grace.
heres the kicker in scripture:
verse 22 says "so what if God wanting to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction".
Note: hold "prepared for destruction" as we continue.
verse 23 says "and that he may make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had prepared beforehand for glory".
Note: prepared beforehand for glory.
So we have vessels prepared for wrath and vessels prepared for glory.
the difference between the two is found in one huge key word "BEFOREHAND"
notice it is not mentioned in verse 22 but in nearly exactly the same sentence in verse 23 Paul adds beforehand.
What does this mean?
It means God actively saves in verse 23 and God passively passes over in verse 22.
and then verse 25 makes the affirmation of what has been previously stated in verses prior to it.
last footnote.
If you choose not to believe that God chooses a people and passes over the rest then you are the one who is defining scripture.
I always remember this quote from seminary.
" the truth is hard to swallow, but never side with mankinds notions of truth"
Its a hard pill to swallow that's why we need to be on our faces before him with so much thankfulness that God has saved us.
so then secondly yes God uses whom he wants for whatever purpose he wants.
Clearly scripture teaches this.
The argument Paul is making here is on Gods sovereign choice to save, that this act is totally not dependant on us but rather on Gods prior election and foreknowledge.
Why? So his glory is displayed in how he saves and how he judges.
and he uses many examples such as Pharoah and Rebbeca etc.
Next is to understand our notions of fairness. To say that it isn't fair or its wrong, or whatever is to defy scripture and substitute Gods word for our own ideology. Obviously it is hard to grasp this passage but scripture makes it very clear that God creates vessels for honour and vessels for dishonour. and God has full right to do that.
God in eternity past had a people, which means the exclusion of any others that were not his. however those that are excluded and those that are his both deserve Gods righteous judgement. But since God before time had a people his glory now not only is displayed in his righteous judgment but even more so in is undeserved grace.
heres the kicker in scripture:
verse 22 says "so what if God wanting to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction".
Note: hold "prepared for destruction" as we continue.
verse 23 says "and that he may make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had prepared beforehand for glory".
Note: prepared beforehand for glory.
So we have vessels prepared for wrath and vessels prepared for glory.
the difference between the two is found in one huge key word "BEFOREHAND"
notice it is not mentioned in verse 22 but in nearly exactly the same sentence in verse 23 Paul adds beforehand.
What does this mean?
It means God actively saves in verse 23 and God passively passes over in verse 22.
and then verse 25 makes the affirmation of what has been previously stated in verses prior to it.
last footnote.
If you choose not to believe that God chooses a people and passes over the rest then you are the one who is defining scripture.
I always remember this quote from seminary.
" the truth is hard to swallow, but never side with mankinds notions of truth"
Its a hard pill to swallow that's why we need to be on our faces before him with so much thankfulness that God has saved us.