Really challenged...Romans9:17-24

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Pottyone

Guest
#1
Been a Christian now for over 30 years and trust The Lord as my Saviour and as the absolute moral authority for my life but often struggle with this passage. I know God is Sovereign but I don't want to believe that my God creates who he wants for whatever purpose he wants and that that could be as an object doomed to eternity in hell. Is this the argument Paul is making here?
 
Feb 21, 2014
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#2
Hi there;good to see you on the forums.

Try not to see things independently of your own experience of the grace of God. Ask yourself: did you really deserve any of God's rich blessing in Christ?

The principal subject of Romans 9, 10 & 11 is Israel, in any case, although with application to the church. (As a dispensationalist I would see the church to be distinct from Israel.
 
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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#3
no..............
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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#4
Romans 9:17-24
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” [SUP]18 [/SUP]So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.[SUP]19 [/SUP]You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” [SUP]20 [/SUP]On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? [SUP]21 [/SUP]Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? [SUP]22 [/SUP]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? [SUP]23 [/SUP]And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
[SUP]24 [/SUP]even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.


Leviticus 27:28
‘Nevertheless, anything which a man sets apart to the Lord out of all that he has, of man or animal or of the fields of his own property, shall not be sold or redeemed. Anything devoted to destruction is most holy to the Lord.


Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
[SUP]13 [/SUP]The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
 
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Pottyone

Guest
#5
Thanks guys for your replies! The question came about after speaking to an Atheist philosopher who was lecturing on ethics and asking the question "is this the kind of god we wish to follow" I know that God is who God is and that our opinion of Him does not change a jot but I was discussing with him from the point of view of God is ultimately a God of love who in His sovereign grace chose to save any of His fallen creation who would trust in the redemptive blood of Christ for their salvation. He then brought up this passage as a rebuttal arguing that my God is not so much a God of love as rather a god of jealousy and authoritarian nature. My way or no way.
 
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servantotehmosthigh

Guest
#6
I will aim to discuss the scripture by each verse following a precept that correlates to it.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth

Exo 9:13 And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
Exo 9:14 For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.
Exo 9:15 For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth.
Exo 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.


Exo 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:
Exo 10:2 And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD.
Exo 18:10 And Jethro said, Blessed be the LORD, who hath delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of Pharaoh, who hath delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
Exo 18:11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.

These show how the Most High allowed the Pharoah raised up to a certain status until he was dealt with to show how great His Power is. This is deeper from a spiritual level. EVERY empire, is set behind a god. In this case, the Egyptians used the power from various gods to oppressed the Hebrews. The reason why the Hebrews were under the gods oppression because of their disobedience as this is still occurring to this day. Moses was sent to be a savior from tyranny of the Egyptians and to also show to Hebrews and Gentiles alike that HE is the real deal. Many Egyptians have converted because of this testimony.
1Sa 2:7 The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.
1Sa 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The Most High hardens the minds of the reprobate in order to then chastise them or rebuke them from their ways. It's like a hard headed child that doesn't want to listen to you no matter what and then learns through tough love. The Israelite have and are still suffering from their ignorance. Therefore, go does not show a respect in person of whom he shows compassion for or not.
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

This shows the power of authority the Most High has over his creation for we are created for the purpose to serve HIM and HIM only. Today many serve the creature over the creator which is an abomination to the Most High.

Also God is not only a God of Love, but also a jealous God, and a God of War , God of Forgiveness, Mercy , Judgement, Righteousness, Longsuffering etc. For we were all creation in his image and likeness, so if we exhibit certain characteristics, would not the Most High have them also since he created us? But it the difference between us and Him is that his judgment is righteous and perfect. If he says something he does it. We are flawed in our decisions because we constantly battle between our flesh and spirit because of the curse of Adam and Eve. We have become a dangerous specie since we have the knowledge of good and evil .













 
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servantotehmosthigh

Guest
#7
Thanks guys for your replies! The question came about after speaking to an Atheist philosopher who was lecturing on ethics and asking the question "is this the kind of god we wish to follow" I know that God is who God is and that our opinion of Him does not change a jot but I was discussing with him from the point of view of God is ultimately a God of love who in His sovereign grace chose to save any of His fallen creation who would trust in the redemptive blood of Christ for their salvation. He then brought up this passage as a rebuttal arguing that my God is not so much a God of love as rather a god of jealousy and authoritarian nature. My way or no way.

The Philosopher needs to understand why God has these characteristics like we all do. God Is jealous if we enjoy his creation to than give homage to another god and not all all. This is a from of spiritual fornication. Would we all be jealous if our husband or wife admired another woman/ man and ignored you? How abut if your children gave respect to another person who did not take any responsibility of his/her upbringing and disrespected you? God is also patient , loving, merciful amongst many things.The problem lies in the misguided teaching about God in these churches. We are all taught a one-sided perspective about God. But then, when we start to see more, we start to question, with no answer to than lose faith in God.
These churches teach from a curriculum without really expounding on the needs of people that will help them grow spiritually. The same lesson is being taught like a record player keeping people stagnant in understanding which will lead them with a lot of unanswered questions.
 
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Pottyone

Guest
#8
Thank you servant...well thought out and well expounded.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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#9
Thanks guys for your replies! The question came about after speaking to an Atheist philosopher who was lecturing on ethics and asking the question "is this the kind of god we wish to follow" I know that God is who God is and that our opinion of Him does not change a jot but I was discussing with him from the point of view of God is ultimately a God of love who in His sovereign grace chose to save any of His fallen creation who would trust in the redemptive blood of Christ for their salvation. He then brought up this passage as a rebuttal arguing that my God is not so much a God of love as rather a god of jealousy and authoritarian nature. My way or no way.
Obviously Calvinists and non-Calvinists will view this differently.

I'm not a Calvinist, but when debating this issue with an atheist, instead of explaining the non-Calvinist view, I would normally just go forward with the issue of God's sovereignty. That ends most arguments with atheists anyway.

I would say something like this, "Although I disagree a bit with your view of that passage, God certainly IS sovereign, and he can certainly do whatever He wants. If you are God, and you made everything in the universe, you certainly have the moral authority to do whatever you please with your own creation. Period. If your own creation doesn't want to abide your laws, or submit to your authority, you don't owe them ANYTHING."

That's more or less the direction I would normally go.

The WORST thing an atheist apologist can do is take on the issue of God's sovereignty.
Never run from that argument.
Stand on that argument, and make the atheist see his own sin for what it is...
a rebellion against his own creator.
 
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maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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#10
Let me add a bit more emphasis on how important the issue of God's sovereignty is in an apologetics debate.

The reason an atheist is an atheist, is wholly because he dislikes God's sovereignty!
He doesn't want a sovereign God telling him what to do!
This is the very root of his atheism!

So, if an atheist apologist wants to bring up God's sovereignty, and talk about how horrible it is... don't shy away from that argument. Dig in! Camp out there!

Even if he views God's sovereignty differently than you... it's irrelevant.
Camp right there, on the issues of God's sovereignty.
Make him face the issue that God created him, and now HE is in rebellion against his own creator!
 
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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#11
Thanks guys for your replies! The question came about after speaking to an Atheist philosopher who was lecturing on ethics and asking the question "is this the kind of god we wish to follow" I know that God is who God is and that our opinion of Him does not change a jot but I was discussing with him from the point of view of God is ultimately a God of love who in His sovereign grace chose to save any of His fallen creation who would trust in the redemptive blood of Christ for their salvation. He then brought up this passage as a rebuttal arguing that my God is not so much a God of love as rather a god of jealousy and authoritarian nature. My way or no way.
as you say, it doesn't change a jot.
if God is God, (and God is God), and i am man, then He is and has all authority, and i have no "choice" whether to obey Him or to imagine for myself some 'god' that better pleases me.
God is God, and cursing Him because i think i know better is inviting my own destruction.
God is sovereign. Love is jealous.

that's what Paul is arguing here:
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?
Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

(Romans 9:20)

that God is sovereign, and man has no place to question Him.

maybe your atheist friend doesn't like the way God runs His universe?
fine. that begs a question though:

what's he gonna do about it, puny little man? what higher court is he going to appeal to, to bring suit against the Creator and Sustainer of the universe?

tell him when he gets his own universe, he can run it as he sees fit, but for now he lives in one that happens to belong to God.

God is love. He is merciful and generous and kind. and He is holy and righteous and just.
if we do not respect and fear Him as He deserves, we cannot understand even the shadow of His ways.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#12
why don't atheists use this same line of argument with anything else?

"what's that? internal combustion destroys the gasoline molecules?
why that's unthinkable!
i refuse to believe in a chemical process that has such callous disregard for octane"

"therefore we conclude that there is no such thing as chemistry"


:D
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#13
Been a Christian now for over 30 years and trust The Lord as my Saviour and as the absolute moral authority for my life but often struggle with this passage. I know God is Sovereign but I don't want to believe that my God creates who he wants for whatever purpose he wants and that that could be as an object doomed to eternity in hell. Is this the argument Paul is making here?
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

It is not in God's nature that the wicked die and be lost but they repent and live, So God certainly would not force man, against his own will, to be wicked and lost.

Paul makes it clear in Rom 11 that God has not only cut off the Jews from being His chosen people but has grafted in the Gentiles. In Rom 9 Paul is arguing that God was just in doing this and is refuting the arguments he knew the Jews would raise. Paul also shows that God did not cut off the Jews to a point they could not be saved, but they could still be saved through Christ, by becoming Christians, as a remnant did in Acts 2. But most of the Jews rejected Christ.


Calvinists have twisted Rom 9 giving opportunity for atheists to attack God.

 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#14
of course, if we are worried that "_______-ists" have twisted Paul's letter to the Romans beyond understanding,
we can see the same things written in the old testament too:

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
(Proverbs 16:4)

You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay, that the thing made should say of its maker, “He did not make me”; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?
(Isaiah 29:16)

Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
(Joshua 24:14)

:)
 
May 15, 2013
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#15
Been a Christian now for over 30 years and trust The Lord as my Saviour and as the absolute moral authority for my life but often struggle with this passage. I know God is Sovereign but I don't want to believe that my God creates who he wants for whatever purpose he wants and that that could be as an object doomed to eternity in hell. Is this the argument Paul is making here?
Isaiah 45:1 “This is what the Lord says to his anointed ( his children), to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:

Hosea 6:6

For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Isaiah 40:26

Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one and calls forth each of them by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

Matthew 13:25


But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.

2Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. [SUP]3 [/SUP]In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Matthew 23:15
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Matthew 12:34
You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

Jesus had known whom not to waste His time with, because they weren't of His. But Nicodemus wanted to be with Him, but was afraid to make that transition like the Roman centurion and the woman that admit that she wasn't of His but a dog that is willing to submit to Him. Since God has created everything, even the children of satan, He is showing everyone that He is the Lord of all thing that control all that has came into existence.

 
Mar 12, 2014
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#16
No OT passages would contradict Rom 9 or Eze 33:11. So OT passages are not out of the limits in being twisted by Calvinists either.

Prov 16:4 for example, if Calvinists would examine the Hebrew word ma'aneh which in the KJV has been translated "all things for himself:". The word means to give a response, give an answer. So the meaning of the verse is all things will have to give an answer to God, even the wicked will have to answer to God.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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#17
Been a Christian now for over 30 years and trust The Lord as my Saviour and as the absolute moral authority for my life but often struggle with this passage. I know God is Sovereign but I don't want to believe that my God creates who he wants for whatever purpose he wants and that that could be as an object doomed to eternity in hell. Is this the argument Paul is making here?
Yes, Paul is stating that God creates whom he wants for whatever purpose he wants.

And God's response to your concern is:

I am all-wise and all-just (Isa 40:13-14; Ps 89:14),

I do what is best and what is right (Dt 32:4; Ps 119:68; Da 4:37).

TRUST ME, and lean not on your own understanding (Pr 3:5).

God's sovereignty requires our trust, not our understanding (Ro 11:33).
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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#18
Thanks guys for your replies! The question came about after speaking to an Atheist philosopher who was lecturing on ethics and asking the question "is this the kind of god we wish to follow" I know that God is who God is and that our opinion of Him does not change a jot but I was discussing with him from the point of view of God is ultimately a God of love who in His sovereign grace chose to save any of His fallen creation who would trust in the redemptive blood of Christ for their salvation. He then brought up this passage as a rebuttal arguing that my God is not so much a God of love as rather a god of jealousy and authoritarian nature. My way or no way.
God cannot be justified by atheistic human reasoning.

God can only be believed and trusted by those who are born again and know him (Jer 9:23-24).
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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#19
Calvinists have twisted Rom 9 giving opportunity for atheists to attack God.
Calvin is responsible for atheistic unbelief?

Have you read Ro 8:7-8?

Your superficial rationale never ceases to amaze me.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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#20
No OT passages would contradict Rom 9 or Eze 33:11. So OT passages are not out of the limits in being twisted by Calvinists either.
So you set the Scriptures against themselves, OT contradicting Ro 9. . .evidence of a wrong understanding of both the OT and NT.