Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

[1still_waters]

Ephesians 5 isn't about mutual submission between husband and wife. To make the text say such, is to blur a distinct dynamic between husband and wife that the scripture is trying to make.

Ephesians 5

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lorddoes the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[d] of His flesh and of His bones.31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”[e] 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

This doesn't negate the fact that some scriptures draw a level of sameness, and mutual serving between husband and wife.

1 Cor 7
3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

1 Cor 11

8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.

Regardless, we can't use those scriptures to blur and dismantle the unique dynamic between husband and wife this portion of scripture is drawing.

Ephesians 5:22-33 draws a correlation between Jesus and his church, and husband and wife.

23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Christ is equated with husband.
Church is equated with wife.

If husband and wife were considered the same, the scripture wouldn't go out of the way to draw this distinction.

Some try to blur this distinct dynamic between husband and wife by bringing verse 21 into the context.

21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

That verse belongs to the previous portion of the text which addresses issues within the church in general. There is a clear transition in thought after verse 21, when Paul addresses husband and wife, therefore you can't drag verse 21 into the context that's about something new.

You can't blur the distinct lines between husband and wife this text is clearly making. Again...

Christ is equated with husband.
Church is equated with wife.

The husband in the position of Christ is instructed to do things like Christ.

23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lorddoes the church.

The wife in the position of the church is instructed to do things like the church.

24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

When you try to blur this text by making it about "mutual submission" you in fact blur the lines between Christ and his church, because marriage itself is a picture of Christ and the church.

Jesus isn't subject to his church.
The church didn't give its life to save Jesus and sanctify Him.

When you blur the lines of this text's intent, you make it look like Jesus is subject to his church, and you make it look like the church gave its life to sanctify Jesus.

 

[JesusChica1991]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

Oh dear...you sure like canned worms for dinner, don't you?

 

[TrainforGodliness]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

You state that the passage isn't about mutual submission. The passage clearly says that the wife (church) is supposed to submit to her husband (Christ), yet during his own lifetime Christ just as clearly made himself the servant of mankind in general and of the church-to-be in particular.

So I would ask: What does a wife "submitting" to her husband look like? Does that mean that whatever he wants he gets? I'm fairly certain you will say that this is not what it means, but the passage in question gives no conditions for when a wife is permitted NOT to submit. Any exceptions to absolute submission must necessarily be found somewhere other than in this passage. If there are exceptions to be found elsewhere, then might a fuller statement about mutual submission also be found elsewhere? I'm going to leave off sharing any more of what I think about this until I have a better sense of what you (or others) think about some of the questions I've raised.

 

[1still_waters]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

You state that the passage isn't about mutual submission. The passage clearly says that the wife (church) is supposed to submit to her husband (Christ), yet during his own lifetime Christ just as clearly made himself the servant of mankind in general and of the church-to-be in particular.

So I would ask: What does a wife "submitting" to her husband look like? Does that mean that whatever he wants he gets? I'm fairly certain you will say that this is not what it means, but the passage in question gives no conditions for when a wife is permitted NOT to submit. Any exceptions to absolute submission must necessarily be found somewhere other than in this passage. If there are exceptions to be found elsewhere, then might a fuller statement about mutual submission also be found elsewhere? I'm going to leave off sharing any more of what I think about this until I have a better sense of what you (or others) think about some of the questions I've raised.

Jesus doesn't submit to the church.
He served and sacrificed, but never was subject to or submitted to the church.

 

[RedTent]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

For anyone who has been in a Godly marriage, it is all pretty simple. If your spouse is happy so are you, and it works the other way, too. What we need to learn is to see the church as this is teaching. We are the church, and God is as much a part of it as in a marriage?

How do we look at this in regard to immorality in the church? Do we discipline as is talked of in 1 Corinthians 5 and 6, or say that Christ in our church only blesses, so we are to be a support group for this immorality? How does this relate to the church being the bride of Christ.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

Ephesians 5 isn't about mutual submission between husband and wife. To make the text say such, is to blur a distinct dynamic between husband and wife that the scripture is trying to make.

Ephesians 5


This doesn't negate the fact that some scriptures draw a level of sameness, and mutual serving between husband and wife.





Regardless, we can't use those scriptures to blur and dismantle the unique dynamic between husband and wife this portion of scripture is drawing.

Ephesians 5:22-33 draws a correlation between Jesus and his church, and husband and wife.




Christ is equated with husband.
Church is equated with wife.

If husband and wife were considered the same, the scripture wouldn't go out of the way to draw this distinction.

Some try to blur this distinct dynamic between husband and wife by bringing verse 21 into the context.



That verse belongs to the previous portion of the text which addresses issues within the church in general. There is a clear transition in thought after verse 21, when Paul addresses husband and wife, therefore you can't drag verse 21 into the context that's about something new.

You can't blur the distinct lines between husband and wife this text is clearly making. Again...

Christ is equated with husband.
Church is equated with wife.

The husband in the position of Christ is instructed to do things like Christ.




The wife in the position of the church is instructed to do things like the church.



When you try to blur this text by making it about "mutual submission" you in fact blur the lines between Christ and his church, because marriage itself is a picture of Christ and the church.

Jesus isn't subject to his church.
The church didn't give its life to save Jesus and sanctify Him.

When you blur the lines of this text's intent, you make it look like Jesus is subject to his church, and you make it look like the church gave its life to sanctify Jesus.

I don't know about you, but when I read Ephesians I got the understanding you think is incorrect. Also, with the other context of the Bible, submitting to each other equally makes the most sense.

However, if you really want to prove your perspective, you always can with the Bible by just interpreting things in your own way =/.

 

[Timeline]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

Ephesians 5 isn't about mutual submission between husband and wife. To make the text say such, is to blur a distinct dynamic between husband and wife that the scripture is trying to make.

Ephesians 5


This doesn't negate the fact that some scriptures draw a level of sameness, and mutual serving between husband and wife.





Regardless, we can't use those scriptures to blur and dismantle the unique dynamic between husband and wife this portion of scripture is drawing.

Ephesians 5:22-33 draws a correlation between Jesus and his church, and husband and wife.




Christ is equated with husband.
Church is equated with wife.

If husband and wife were considered the same, the scripture wouldn't go out of the way to draw this distinction.

Some try to blur this distinct dynamic between husband and wife by bringing verse 21 into the context.



That verse belongs to the previous portion of the text which addresses issues within the church in general. There is a clear transition in thought after verse 21, when Paul addresses husband and wife, therefore you can't drag verse 21 into the context that's about something new.

You can't blur the distinct lines between husband and wife this text is clearly making. Again...

Christ is equated with husband.
Church is equated with wife.

The husband in the position of Christ is instructed to do things like Christ.




The wife in the position of the church is instructed to do things like the church.



When you try to blur this text by making it about "mutual submission" you in fact blur the lines between Christ and his church, because marriage itself is a picture of Christ and the church.

Jesus isn't subject to his church.
The church didn't give its life to save Jesus and sanctify Him.

When you blur the lines of this text's intent, you make it look like Jesus is subject to his church, and you make it look like the church gave its life to sanctify Jesus.

A couple of times, while reading, I thought that I disagreed with you (by making assumptions about where you were going), but by the end, we were on the same page.

I tried, several times, to write beyond the comment above, but every time I started rambling, or wasn't happy with it....so there you go.

 

[lioncub]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

I agree with the OP. Popular thought would have us believe that a woman can lead or teach the husband. This is like the church teaching or leading Christ !

 

[proverbs35]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

I agree with the OP. Popular thought would have us believe that a woman can lead or teach the husband. This is like the church teaching or leading Christ !

• If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking. James 1:5
• The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. Pr 4:7

The Bible teaches that wisdom is a virtue that BOTH men and women should acquire. In other words, wisdom isn't just for wives seeking to be like the Pr 31 woman.

• A wise man will listen and increase in learning, And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel. Pr1:5
• A wise man is he who listens to counsel. Pr 12:15
• Listen to advice and accept instruction, and in the end you will be wise. Pr 19:20

According to the lexicon, one of the definitions or synonyms for listen (shama 8085) is "to obey, be obedient."

In other words, listening (8085) is something everyone should do. Therefore, husbands should listen to the wisdom of their wives when necessary. There are examples of that in scripture.

Biblical husbands who listened to their wives:

• A virtuous wife "speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue." Pr 31:26

Abraham listened to the wisdom of his wife.
But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. LISTEN (8085) to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned" (Gen 21:12).

Hannah's husband submitted to the vow that she made to the Lord (1 Sam 1:11, 21-23). This is especially relevant since an OT husband could lawfully cancel a vow made by his wife. Hannah's husband didn't do that. Instead, he listened to the wisdom of his wife.

Xerxes listened to Esther's plea about reversing Haman's order to destroy the Jews (Es 8:5, 9:13). This was a big deal because after the king had signed and sealed a decree or given his permission for a decree to be signed and sealed , it was not to be repealed or revoked (Es1:19, Es 3:9-12). However, he listened to the wisdom of his wife and revoked the decree to kill the Jews.

Nabal was a foolish man and husband. Proverbs lists the traits of a foolish person for us (Pr 23:9, Pr 1:7). The way Nabal treated his wife Abigail is a stark contrast to the way David treated Abigail. Unlike Nabal, David acknowledged and affirmed Abagail's wisdom and capacity to " speak with wisdom and faithful instruction." 1 Sam 25:24-34

A virtuous wife can "teach" her husband by "speaking with wisdom and faithful instruction" and there are examples of that documented in the Bible.

 

[phil112]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

Nor does the bible say it is. It is merely telling us to fulfill the role the God has put us in. It tells the wife to submit to the husband, but it doesn't tell the husband to submit to the wife.

Many folks use this to tell their wife the bible says they have to do what their husband tells them to. That is correct. It says that. But it is talking to believers, and in the same breath it says that it tells the husband to put himself under Christ. If a man is obeying Christ, his wife is a fortunate woman indeed.

The OP only lightly touched on the 21st verse: "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.", which tells us that same submission is to be for everyone. The love we must have for one another is what God is trying to instill in us. When we love another, if they submit themselves to us, we would never do anything that wasn't good for them. We would never harm them.

God tells us to submit to Him, not satan. Resist satan He said. Tell satan to "get thee behind me". A woman should never think she has to submit to someone that mistreats her. Nor a man, for that matter. God has put an order in place and He expects it to be followed, not perverted. A man is the head of the wife and Christ is the head of the husband.
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

There are those that reject Paul's teaching to push their own agenda. Paul tells us what Christ told him to tell us. If you don't believe Paul, you might as well chunk the whole bible in the trash.

 

[JackH]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

Nor does the bible say it is. It is merely telling us to fulfill the role the God has put us in. It tells the wife to submit to the husband, but it doesn't tell the husband to submit to the wife.

Does the Bible tell us to submit to government? How about church authority?

What about a female leader of a country? Is that contrary to the teachings of the Bible?

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

Does the Bible tell us to submit to government? How about church authority?

What about a female leader of a country? Is that contrary to the teachings of the Bible?

Best argument is about government. The reason I say this is because people can always deny a female church leader using scripture. However, scripture never says anything bad about a female working in Government, being the president, etc. So yea, good post.

 

[phil112]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

Does the Bible tell us to submit to government? How about church authority?

What about a female leader of a country? Is that contrary to the teachings of the Bible?

Best argument is about government. The reason I say this is because people can always deny a female church leader using scripture. However, scripture never says anything bad about a female working in Government, being the president, etc. So yea, good post.

Either of you read the bible much?

Isaiah 3:12 "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths."

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

Either of you read the bible much?

Isaiah 3:12 "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths."

To a degree I agree with you. However this doesn't prove we shouldn't equally submit.

However, the chapter does talk about the things Israel did that was against God.

So yes I'll state that women should not rule over men. That is in correlation with what has been stated earlier. However, does this mean that people in South Korea (who have a female president) shouldn't listen to her whatsoever? No. However according to this, it is their error to have a female leader (and to correlate more, there has recently been problems in South Korea).

Basically, this doesn't prove that the verse in Ephesians is incorrect. It just disprove his argument [JackH].

Also yes I do read the Bible. Not as much as I should though but I think that is unnecessary in this discussion.

Moreover to clarify, Im not saying men are not the leaders. Im just stating that Men and Women should treat each other equally and submit to each other every now and then. A leader knows when to listen, correct?

 

[phil112]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

(1)To a degree I agree with you. (2)However this doesn't prove we shouldn't equally submit.

However, the chapter does talk about the things Israel did that was against God.

So yes I'll state that women should not rule over men. That is in correlation with what has been stated earlier. However, does this mean that people in South Korea (who have a female president) shouldn't listen to her whatsoever? No. However according to this, it is their error to have a female leader (and to correlate more, there has recently been problems in South Korea).

Basically, this doesn't prove that the verse in Ephesians is incorrect. It just disprove his argument [JackH].

Also yes I do read the Bible. Not as much as I should though but I think that is unnecessary in this discussion.

Moreover to clarify, Im not saying men are not the leaders. Im just stating that Men and Women should treat each other equally and submit to each other every now and then. (3)A leader knows when to listen, correct?

1. Agree with me? I posted scripture, I would hope you agree with that.
2. Read post #10
3. A leader knows the job qualifications when he takes the position.(unless you're talking about obama)

Women are not meant to be in a position of authority over a man. The bible is clear on that. When a people has a woman leader that tells you something about them. It isn't a question of can she do the job better - it is simply what God wants and how He designed things. Men are better equipped, intentionally, for such things. That is not an accident, and to claim otherwise is to say God is wrong.

 

[JackH]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

Women are not meant to be in a position of authority over a man. The bible is clear on that. When a people has a woman leader that tells you something about them. It isn't a question of can she do the job better - it is simply what God wants and how He designed things. Men are better equipped, intentionally, for such things. That is not an accident, and to claim otherwise is to say God is wrong.

So I guess you won’t be voting for Hillary Clinton should she gain the nomination in 2016, ‘eh? Or a female Republican candidate either.

What then do you make of Deborah of the Book of Judges, chapters 4 and 5? Deborah, being a judge of Israel, exercised both civil and religious authority over the country. Unlike today’s world where there is typically separation of church and state.

 

[phil112]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

So I guess you won’t be voting for Hillary Clinton should she gain the nomination in 2016, ‘eh? Or a female Republican candidate either.

What then do you make of Deborah of the Book of Judges, chapters 4 and 5? Deborah, being a judge of Israel, exercised both civil and religious authority over the country. Unlike today’s world where there is typically separation of church and state.

I don't vote for anyone that has abortion as an integral part of their platform. I never said, nor does the bible, that women don't hold those positions of authority. It isn't God's desire for it. He tells us that. I am absolutely sure that every time a woman stands up in that position there are men that should be ashamed of themselves, because God is ashamed of them.

This is an old argument made by those who want to justify a woman preaching or leading. Just because it has happened doesn't make it right. How God has worked in the past does not give a person license to disobey him. He used a lying whore too, you think that means it's okay to be a lying whore? I am not comparing a whore to a woman preacher, merely illustrating the absurdity of twisting scripture. God tells us very clearly He prefers it otherwise, and to reject that instruction from Him is to invite correction and/or punishment from Him.

I have enough in my past to answer for. I think I'll try to make sure I remain faithful to His word from here on out.

 

[TrainforGodliness]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

I want to ask again because I haven't seen a response yet: What does it look like when a woman is properly submitting to her husband? What if he says that they will go to church (or denomination) X and she has a strongly principled view against it? For example, if he says they will worship in an Orthodox church but she is strongly opposed to the iconography and veneration of the saints? What if her husband says that she is to do all cooking, cleaning, child caring, shopping, and other household responsibilities while he does nothing around the home, to the point that she is exhausted? He is commanded to love her, but what if he does not do so? What if he continually insists that he wants more children(4, 5, 6, or more) but she does not?

Granted, none of these situations show that the husband should submit to his wife, but what are the limits of her submission to her husband?

 

[JackH]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

Either of you read the bible much?

Isaiah 3:12 "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths."

Yes, I read the Bible much.

What that verse you cherry-picked, in my opinion, means is that the leaders act like children and the women of the court unduly influence the leaders.

 

[Starcrash]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

Christ is equated with husband.
Church is equated with wife.

This is a perfectly logical conclusion, and clearly what the text means. So... why is there any dispute over it?

Because Christianity doesn't want to oppose the law. In nations where you can't treat wives like dirt and they are given equal rights, apologists have to explain why the bible sounds so anti-progressive. This happened when slavery became illegal... the apostle Paul clearly had no problem with slavery, and Jesus didn't speak against it, but apologists needed to make it sound like the bible was anti-slavery all along, and so they've tried to purposely misinterpret it.

But let's further consider this idea that you're defending. Are you familiar with Battered Person Syndrome? It's what a wife might get if her husband physically abuses her. The symptoms are these:

• The abused thinks that the violence was his or her fault (such as one might do if God punishes that person, blaming themselves for sin rather than God for responding to sin with violence).
• The abused has an inability to place the responsibility for the violence elsewhere (because God is perfect and just, one cannot even question whether God is ultimately responsible for a brutal punishment like Hell).
• The abused fears for their life and/or the lives of their children (the fear of God is a fear of his wrath and jealousy, two divine emotions that the bible highlights repeatedly).
• The abused has an irrational belief that the abuser is omnipresent and omniscient.

The comparison between a wife under her husband and the church under God isn't helpful to those who want to defend the bible in this day and age.