Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

[JackH]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

Your opinion leads you to lie. I have a small but decent library of religious references and literature. I consult them for insight on difficult passages and understanding of others way of thinking.

So now you are calling me a liar. You chastised me for using a commentary. Now you tell us you do likewise - consult religious references. Reminds me of when DavidLOVESsnow said to you that you complained about what he did, and then you did the same thing. What does that make you? A hypocrite?

But let me ask you, what was that reference you made to a lying whore a few posts back all about? What verses are you referring to? I'm wondering if this might be a "submission" issue.

 

[phil112]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

So now you are calling me a liar...................

I said your opinion leads you to lie. That was said in response to this post you made: "Originally Posted by JackH.......................In my opinion, KJV ONLY advocates such as yourself who disdain all else are severely limiting themselves with respect to resources that enhance understanding."
I do not "disdain all else", and you saying I do is a lie. Now you said I called you a liar. Again, you have told a lie. You are starting to make me wonder how many times a person has to lie to be a liar. I am sure if you continue you will reach that plateau.............

 

[JackH]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

I want to ask again because I haven't seen a response yet: What does it look like when a woman is properly submitting to her husband? What if he says that they will go to church (or denomination) X and she has a strongly principled view against it? For example, if he says they will worship in an Orthodox church but she is strongly opposed to the iconography and veneration of the saints? What if her husband says that she is to do all cooking, cleaning, child caring, shopping, and other household responsibilities while he does nothing around the home, to the point that she is exhausted? He is commanded to love her, but what if he does not do so? What if he continually insists that he wants more children(4, 5, 6, or more) but she does not?

Granted, none of these situations show that the husband should submit to his wife, but what are the limits of her submission to her husband?

Hey phil112, let's get back to something related to the subject of the thread, shall we?

What are your answers to the questions that TrainforGodliness posed?

 

[Timeline]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

A wife is to submit to her husband just the same way as the Church "should" submit to Jesus Christ. This is the example...no it's not really an example, but in many ways the same thing. The problem is, Jesus is perfect and men are not. But as long as it is possible the wife is to submit to her husband.

_______________________________________________

Now I would like to respond to Davidlovessnow. God/Jesus never said that we can't discuss things with them. I don't believe discussion or disagreement is outside of submission. But ultimately, we should do what God wants us to do.

In America, we choose our spouses, so I think that prayer and consideration should be made before being bond in marriage. I think this is a big problem in America. People "fall in love" (lust) and get married without knowing, discussing, or having any idea of how the marriage is going to work. Then they "fall out of love" (lust) and want to get divorced...often only to repeat the same cycle again.

If the bible compares the submission of the church to Jesus with that of a wife to her husband, what are you taking from Jesus when you take the intending meaning of this verse from husbands?

 

[phil112]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

Originally Posted by TrainforGodliness

I want to ask again because I haven't seen a response yet: What does it look like when a woman is properly submitting to her husband? What if he says that they will go to church (or denomination) X and she has a strongly principled view against it? For example, if he says they will worship in an Orthodox church but she is strongly opposed to the iconography and veneration of the saints? What if her husband says that she is to do all cooking, cleaning, child caring, shopping, and other household responsibilities while he does nothing around the home, to the point that she is exhausted? He is commanded to love her, but what if he does not do so? What if he continually insists that he wants more children(4, 5, 6, or more) but she does not?

Granted, none of these situations show that the husband should submit to his wife, but what are the limits of her submission to her husband?

Hey phil112, let's get back to something related to the subject of the thread, shall we?

What are your answers to the questions that TrainforGodliness posed?

My answer is to turn to the word of God, as is the answer for all things in this life.

If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. [SUP] [/SUP]And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
[SUP] [/SUP]For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
[SUP] [/SUP]But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
[SUP] [/SUP]For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
[SUP] [/SUP]But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk.

A christain is bound to obey God. If a husband wants to go to a church against a saved wife's beliefs, then she should stay in that relationship and live as God desires her to.
If a wife wants to go to a church against a saved husbands beliefs, he should ask her to go with him, or if she insists, allow her to go alone. Let's assume there are two bible believing churches in the same town and the wife prefers one and the husband the other. (never seen that, but for the sake of arguement we'll posit it). The husband can allow his wife to go to the one of her choice, tho she shouldn't go without him, or he can tell her they are going to his choice, and she will submit to his wishes per bible instruction. If both churches are Godly churches, they will teach and preach the same doctrine. If both husband and wife are saved, they will enjoy worship and fellowship in either church. It would simply come down to a choice of parishioners in each congregation that they may prefer to fellowship with. If they are both truly saved that will be a small concession.

 

[psychomom]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

Ephesians 5 isn't about mutual submission between husband and wife. To make the text say such, is to blur a distinct dynamic between husband and wife that the scripture is trying to make.

Ephesians 5


This doesn't negate the fact that some scriptures draw a level of sameness, and mutual serving between husband and wife.





Regardless, we can't use those scriptures to blur and dismantle the unique dynamic between husband and wife this portion of scripture is drawing.

Ephesians 5:22-33 draws a correlation between Jesus and his church, and husband and wife.




Christ is equated with husband.
Church is equated with wife.

If husband and wife were considered the same, the scripture wouldn't go out of the way to draw this distinction.

Some try to blur this distinct dynamic between husband and wife by bringing verse 21 into the context.



That verse belongs to the previous portion of the text which addresses issues within the church in general. There is a clear transition in thought after verse 21, when Paul addresses husband and wife, therefore you can't drag verse 21 into the context that's about something new.

You can't blur the distinct lines between husband and wife this text is clearly making. Again...

Christ is equated with husband.
Church is equated with wife.

The husband in the position of Christ is instructed to do things like Christ.




The wife in the position of the church is instructed to do things like the church.



When you try to blur this text by making it about "mutual submission" you in fact blur the lines between Christ and his church, because marriage itself is a picture of Christ and the church.

Jesus isn't subject to his church.
The church didn't give its life to save Jesus and sanctify Him.

When you blur the lines of this text's intent, you make it look like Jesus is subject to his church, and you make it look like the church gave its life to sanctify Jesus.

perhaps this is not a popular position for a Christian woman to take, but, yes! Stilly.

this passage, and it's parallel one in Col. 3 makes things clear.
i'm always blown away when i read, "Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord."
wow!

i think about this in context of the Godhead...the Lord is not asking wives to do anything He hasn't done.
don't we see the Son submitting to the Father? etc.

ellie

 

[JackH]

Re: Ephesians 5:22-33 isn't about "mutual submission" between husband and wife.

My answer is to turn to the word of God, as is the answer for all things in this life.
A christain is bound to obey God. If a husband wants to go to a church against a saved wife's beliefs, then she should stay in that relationship and live as God desires her to.

TrainforGodliness specifically asked about a church that practices veneration of the saints.

What do you say about that?