Mormons / Latter Day Saints

[just-me]

Daniel606
What I am curious about recently (after getting into the Hebrew language) is what was really written on the stone tablets? I could explain why I'm questioning Exodus 20:2-17 as the "Ten Commandments" if you are interested.

 

[just-me]

Whenever you use this scripture to support that Jesus and God the Father are consubstantial (in 1 being) you must either not know or you hope that I don't know John 17:11. In John 17:11, Jesus is praying to the Father to keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me (the apostles), that they may be one, as we are one.


Also you either don't know or hope I don't know John 17:20-22
20 Neither pray I for these (the apostles) alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the
world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

So according to the prayer Jesus offers to his Father in heaven found in John 17, Jesus and his Father cannot be 1 being, otherwise Jesus and his Father and the apostles and the billions of people that believe in Jesus because of the apostles would also be 1 massive being.

The only way John 10:30 reconciles with John 17 is that Jesus and the Father act as one. They are one in purpose, action, mind, and will, but not one physically, they are not one in the same being, they are separate and distinct individuals. Jesus is on earth praying to God the Father, who is in heaven(way separated physically).

The Hebrew language also takes care of that discrepancy. "Unit of one" is the proper concept. Jesus was, and is FULLY filled continuously with His Father's Spirit unlike any other that had ever lived. When we look at Jesus we see the Father. Do you remember what He said to Philip when asking that Jesus would show him the Father?

Jesus said "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" John 14:9

There is another scripture that will confirm this if I have time on this post.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:28

 

[just-me]

Continuing from post 722 we know each other by who we are, not according to our outward appearance. Jesus wasn't a comely person physically because it wasn't important.

Isaiah53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. John 7:24

With that said in relation to the previous post, my son-in-law's first name is the same as mine. My daughters first name is the same as my 2 daughter-in-laws. We identify each other by the spirit that motivates each other, and we know each other by what we see. Philip saw God the Father in Jesus FULLY. (smile) All Jesus did was all that God was doing in Him.

John 5:19 and 30 "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do : for what things soever he doeth , these also doeth the Son likewise. I can of mine own self do nothing : as I hear , I judge : and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

When we pray (because we have the spirit of God in us) we are not praying to ourselves. John 17:20-22
There's that being born again thing again. Excellent is the plan of salvation!

 

[Dan_473]

Acts 17:28-29 "For in him we live , and move , and have our being ; as certain also of your own poets have said , For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

offspring=Greek 1085. genos ghen'-os from 1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):--born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock.
Hebrew 6631 tse'etsa' tseh-ets-aw' from 3318; issue, i.e. produce, children:--that which cometh forth (out), offspring.

It is clear that Paul is advising the people at Athens that this "unknown God" they so ignorantly worship is not like other Gods of man made objects. Along with that, Paul makes it clear where God Almighty dwells in verse 24, as I mentioned before. You ever wonder why Paul mentions both them (by mentioning the poets) and himself as offspring of God created by their unknown God? The people at Athens were practicing the worshiping of idols and they had nothing to identify with the Creator of all things. That's why they didn't know any better until Paul came.

Years ago, as a Sunday school teacher, I heard a very intelligent man tell me that "in order for people to understand what you are presenting, you first must relate to them about what they already knew." The people at Athens had no idea how they were made, but they knew they were formed (being born naturally) by some entity other than themselves.

Paul said that his ministry involved becoming all things to all people in order to proclaim the gospel. In this case he definitely wasn't teaching about "spirit children" of the past, his ministry was teaching how to become "children of God."

Consider these verses when reading about Paul's teaching and the poets at mars hill at Areopagus in Athens.
1 Corinthians 9:19-23
19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

are you concerned mostly about which word is used to translate, or whether is should apply to all people, or something else?

 

[just-me]

are you concerned mostly about which word is used to translate, or whether is should apply to all people, or something else?

I'm concerned about people understanding the plan of salvation without any interference that uses those defining scriptures to say something else other than what that single message truly is. verse 23 in the previous post.

1 Corinthians 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

 

[Dan_473]

I am concentrating on the gospel of Jesus Christ concerning scripture that points directly to being born again. I endorsed that when mentioning the conversation between Nicodemus and Jesus. I do not use scriptures that define this truth for another means such as saying they are defining the existence of being in the spirit previous to being children of God through Christ Jesus.

Putting together what I said ("the second Adam is the spiritual man created through Christ") was in relation to this quoted verse.

"For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:22

Then I will add this for you to know my mind in Christ Jesus, knowing He is the 2nd Adam, as you rightly said, we also know He is the first born "from the dead" among many so we are also kin with Him as the second Adam being "born again" in Him.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away ; behold , all things are become new.

New is obviously the second creature unlike the first.

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

not sure if I'm following you here...are you saying that the Second man in 1cor15:47 is all born again people?

 

[Dan_473]

Dan_473
Please read 1 Corinthians 15:20-45 and you will see that it has nothing to do with existence previous to natural birth. It has everything to do with the resurrection of Christ in relation to the first and second Adam in verse 45. Paul uses those understandable things to explain the truth of the subject at hand. Paul is quite harsh to those at Corinth for not understanding the concept of what he is defining. Verse 36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:" I am certainly not categorizing you as one of them. (smile)

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

well, in my mind, we were looking at how well 1cor15:46 relates to what ladybug and Daniel were talking about... my thinking is that while it can be read more than one way, it seems mostly to be an observation about verse 45, and still talking about Adam and Jesus...

 

[daniel606]

Posted by just-me

The Hebrew language also takes care of that discrepancy. "Unit of one" is the proper concept.

Does the Hebrew language clear up John 17:11 and John 17:20-22?

If the Hebrew language clears up the problem in John 10:30, it has to do the same thing for John 17:11 and 20-22.

If Jesus and the Father are "one" physically, then Jesus and God and the apostles and those that believe in the apostles are "one" physically.

And then you have Paul and Apollos in 1 Cor. 3:8. The Hebrew language uses the same word for "one" here, as it does in John 10:30 and John 17:11 and 20-22. So I guess Paul and Apollos are one physically too.

OK, we know that Paul and Apollos are not one physically, but they are one in purpose. So we know that Jesus and the Father and the apostles and those that believe in the apostles are not all one physically, they are all one in purpose. So we know that Jesus and the Father are not one physically, but they are one in purpose.

You are right, the Hebrew language does take care of that discrepancy.

 

[just-me]

not sure if I'm following you here...are you saying that the Second man in 1cor15:47 is all born again people?

Through Christ (yes) Him being the first born among many brethren.

Romans 8:11 and 29 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the *firstborn among many brethren.

Salvation is to follow suit with Christ as we pick up our cross.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a *new creature: old things are passed away ; behold , all things are become new.
Again, *New is obviously the second creature unlike the first.

Henceforth, our second birth in Christ (being born again) is the 2nd Adam. The natural is first, the spiritual is second. Just as the Bible says.
Back to 1 Corinthians 15:46-47
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the *second man is the Lord from heaven.

And yes, the second man is the Lord from heaven. As the natural Adam was the first born in the natural, Jesus is the first born in the spiritual being the second Adam. If we are none of His we are still of the first Adam being carnal in nature. If we are children of God we are of the second Adam spiritual in nature. Jesus as the first born is referring to His resurrection for the New Testament wasn't enacted until after His death. It is clear that Paul is talking about the resurrection in this chapter. He is teaching the significance of a new life in Christ pointing out that it is wrong to call the resurrection a thing of the past. Therefore the resurrection includes those who trust in Christ today because of His resurrection then.

 

[daniel606]

posted by just-me

Daniel606
What I am curious about recently (after getting into the Hebrew language) is what was really written on the stone tablets? I could explain why I'm questioning Exodus 20:2-17 as the "Ten Commandments" if you are interested.

At this point, I would like you to go back to the stones question. You gave me a list of stones and their definitions. But you did not tell my why satan has 9 stones and Jesus has 12 and what the significance of that is? Will you get into that again. I am quite interested. Thanks

 

[just-me]

At this point, I would like you to go back to the stones question. You gave me a list of stones and their definitions. But you did not tell my why satan has 9 stones and Jesus has 12 and what the significance of that is? Will you get into that again. I am quite interested. Thanks

Before the fall, Lucifer was the most powerful angel. But seeing that Jesus is the creator of all things in heaven as well as earth, he didn't have it all like our Savior does.
He had great power but not as much as Christ Jesus. I think that Lucifer wanted all that Jesus had and that's why the rebellion began. Lucifer became prideful in what his ability is, but became jealous because of what he didn't have and never would. The power of the 3 stones that Jesus has that Satan/Lucifer will never have are these.

10. Ligure- The power to redeem (Romans 3:21-26)
11. Agate- The power to separate in every detail (Hebrews 4:9-14)
12. Amethyst- The power to fulfill and lead (Matthew 5:17)

 

[just-me]

These are the pictograph of the letters used in these words. These are the stones in the 3rd row of the breastplate worn by the High Priest
Exodus 28:19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
לשמ=ligure

שבו=agate

אחלמה=amethyst

ל = Shepherd staff
ש= Two front teeth
מ = water
ב = tent floor plan
ו = tent peg
א = Ox head
ח = cross sticks
ה = man with arms raised

 

[daniel606]

Posted by just-me

Before the fall, Lucifer was the most powerful angel. But seeing that Jesus is the creator of all things in heaven as well as earth, he didn't have it all like our Savior does.
He had great power but not as much as Christ Jesus. I think that Lucifer wanted all that Jesus had and that's why the rebellion began. Lucifer became prideful in what his ability is, but became jealous because of what he didn't have and never would. The power of the 3 stones that Jesus has that Satan/Lucifer will never have are these.

10. Ligure- The power to redeem (Romans 3:21-26)
11. Agate- The power to separate in every detail (Hebrews 4:9-14)
12. Amethyst- The power to fulfill and lead (Matthew 5:17)

Where did you get this information? Very interesting.

 

[just-me]

Where did you get this information? Very interesting.

I already gave it to you in this post 2 days ago

 

[just-me]

Take what you know in the truth of scripture and relate scripture to the meaning of the letter with any given word. Make sure that whatever you conclude is in agreement with all of the Bible otherwise you will miss the meaning altogether.
לשמ=ligure
ל = *Shepherd staff
ש= **Two front teeth
מ = ***water
Refer to this post
As you know, a shepherd's staff comforts because the sheep can be rescued if they stray and fall, or are caught in the thicket that surrounds the pasture. With the Shepherd reaching out and grabbing the sheep around the neck with the hook of the *Shepherd's staff, the sheep can be pulled to safety. First letter in the stone “ligure.” This is is a form of redemption but is not complete without the other 2 letters. The first letter defines and sets the precedence for the following letters in the word giving the word its meaning.

Psalm 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and *thy staff they comfort me

Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth , more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

When we eat, our **two front teeth enables us to eat without choking by taking in what we are able to chew and swallow little by little. This is the way God delivers His manna to us so we can see the validity of His word according to what He knows we can comprehend.

Isaiah 28:9-10
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

***Water is a very important symbol of cleansing in the law. Before coming into the presence of God a person had to be clean. This is also related to the symbol of baptism in the New Testament. We go down and die, then come up anew, being submerged into this reality of salvation in Christ Jesus. In this case the water and the two front teeth related to separation and cleansing, and the Shepherd's staff enables the sheep to be present for that purpose.

Exodus 30:20 When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister , to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear : he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

So this stone represents salvation/redemption/purchased/owned by God and becoming one of His own through Christ Jesus.
Jesus has that power, Lucifer never did.

 

[Dan_473]

Yes they were talking about humans as themselves. I quote "Poets are plural, Paul stating that these were performers that said they were made by the unknown God that they worshiped." I thought that you could comprehend what I didn't explicitly say. Please forgive me. It appears to me all that the poets knew and personally believed was in relation to their natural state, knowing they just didn't evolve by some primordial ooze such as evolutionists do. Paul is telling them there is more to life than what they knew at the present. He is preaching the good news of the gospel.
Sorry that I didn't define it to that point.

so, then, you're agreeing that Paul, and the poets, are saying all humans are offspring of God?

 

[just-me]

so, then, you're agreeing that Paul, and the poets, are saying all humans are offspring of God?

By nature, yes.

 

[Dan_473]

We'll get coordinated with our posts someday LOL God bless you. See this post by clicking areopagus (smiling)

You've already been there. read first line please.

yes, I go through the posts one at a time, so there will be duplicates and what not... God bless you, too!

 

[Dan_473]

I'm concerned about people understanding the plan of salvation without any interference that uses those defining scriptures to say something else other than what that single message truly is. verse 23 in the previous post.

1 Corinthians 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

well, we certainly have a different way of reading the scriptures, then... well, if you honestly feel my posts are an interference, then i encourage you not to read them... May the Lord richly bless you!

 

[Dan_473]

Through Christ (yes) Him being the first born among many brethren.

Romans 8:11 and 29 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the *firstborn among many brethren.

Salvation is to follow suit with Christ as we pick up our cross.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a *new creature: old things are passed away ; behold , all things are become new.
Again, *New is obviously the second creature unlike the first.

Henceforth, our second birth in Christ (being born again) is the 2nd Adam. The natural is first, the spiritual is second. Just as the Bible says.
Back to 1 Corinthians 15:46-47
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the *second man is the Lord from heaven.

And yes, the second man is the Lord from heaven. As the natural Adam was the first born in the natural, Jesus is the first born in the spiritual being the second Adam. If we are none of His we are still of the first Adam being carnal in nature. If we are children of God we are of the second Adam spiritual in nature. Jesus as the first born is referring to His resurrection for the New Testament wasn't enacted until after His death. It is clear that Paul is talking about the resurrection in this chapter. He is teaching the significance of a new life in Christ pointing out that it is wrong to call the resurrection a thing of the past. Therefore the resurrection includes those who trust in Christ today because of His resurrection then.

well, I agree that born again people are brothers of Jesus... I disagree that all those people is the lord from heaven...