What is “works of the law?”

[just-me]

That is absolutely untrue. You are trying to justify the Torah and keeping with the law. You do not understand grace and what we have been given in the doctrine of Christ and the church. You can't even support in Paul's epistles any instructions or issues of violating the law of Moses. You have made presumptuous statements to defend your position on the law. The NT believer has a much better covenant and to go back under the old would be a travesty of the cross and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What does faith have to do with the law? Nothing? What does faith establish anyway? Let's all believe as Paul should we?

But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: Acts 24:14
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid : yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

So then we must deteriorate faith when we make void the law. Is that the outcome?

 

[BradC]

I think we are looking at the entire scripture from two different premises.

One way of looking at scripture is what I think is a fleshly way, a way of judgment of scripture. I think you are reading scripture without taking on the mind of Christ. With the mind of Christ, we see all of scripture as truth, all scripture as one coming from one eternal God speaking with one voice. If God says that it is only through faith that we are saved, it is accepted as truth of the Lord. If God says we are not saved by works, that is accepted as truth. When scripture says the new covenant in Christ is better, that is accepted. When God gives the covenant with Abraham, that is accepted. If God says the law is holy, that is accepted. We do not judge, we become little children and accept all. Our work is in seeing how it all works together.

The fleshly mind judges this all, changes it according to their own fleshly reason. They say that if one truth is truth, it means that another is false. They judge, divide, and take away from the power of the Lord. As an example is your judging all works according to only the truth you have learned, cancelling any other truth of the Lord. You stand on your decision that if you stand on faith for salvation, it cancels everything scripture says about works having any other place in truth. You are using truth and faith to cancel truth and faith. You have been tricked by a standard falsehood used by demons from the beginning of time. Scripture gives truth, all of scripture is truth.

Paul was very definitive as to what the works of the flesh were regarding the old man and these we are to put off. If we sow to the flesh we will reap corruption in this life which can be a verity of things that fall under corruption. As a new man in Christ we have been given the Spirit and we are to sow to the Spirit and reap everlasting life. We are to walk and live in the Spirit that we might bear the fruit of the Spirit. We did not receive the Spirit by the works of the law nor are we under the law when we are led by the Spirit. As a NT believer we are under grace and not the law. The law we have been placed under is the law of faith and the Spirit of life. The faith we have is according to the word and doctrine we have been taught by the Spirit through those that God has raised up in the church starting with the apostle's doctrine.

This is where we have our fellowship in the Spirit with the members of Christ's body. The law of Moses has been excelled and exceeded by the ministration of the Spirit who quickens us together according to the word and doctrine we have hid in our heart. The law of Moses has been made ineffective and obsolete when Christ sent the Spirit to dwell within (2 Cor 3). We are built together as members of Christ body for a habitation of God through the Spirit (Eph 2:22 - not the law). The law came by Moses but Christ has given us grace and truth through the Spirit (John 1:17) and it is of that fulness we have received (John 1:16). John's baptism was unto repentance but now it has been put aside and exceeded by the baptism of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and we have become new creature in Christ through the Spirit and not the law.

We are to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The law of repentance has nothing to do with the baptism of the NT believer. The sinner confesses himself to be a sinner and repents of his unbelief and receives the gospel of Christ and him crucified and when he does his sins are forgiven and he is washed clean by the blood of Christ. He is instantly justified, made righteous and has a perfect standing with a clean slate before God without a single work except to believe (John 6:29,30). He will never be made more acceptable notrcan anything he does make him less acceptable. It was all done through mercy and grace and it will be sustained by the word of power in the life of the believer through the Spirit, who will never leave nor forsake him.

This work that is established in the believer is a good work and it is eternal life which no man can take away, which can not be forfeited by the recipient and can not be rejected by false doctrine. The law in the Torah under Moses did not provide this work nor were the works of the Torah eternal but the work of faith we have of God through the words of Christ are eternal, for the words that He has spoken unto us through His Son is spirit and life (zoe - forever life). The new covenant is ratified by His eternal blood (Jn 6:54) and is established upon eternal life and through the eternal Spirit, providing man with eternal redemption, that God gives that no man can take away. This is what (Heb 9) is all about.

 

[Elin]

As used by Paul, "works of the law" are works of obedience to the law given to Moses.

 

[crossnote]

What does faith have to do with the law? Nothing? What does faith establish anyway? Let's all believe as Paul should we?

But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: Acts 24:14
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid : yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

So then we must deteriorate faith when we make void the law. Is that the outcome?

Not really, only when our objective is the law...

Romans 9:31-32 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

 

[crossnote]

I think we are looking at the entire scripture from two different premises.

One way of looking at scripture is what I think is a fleshly way, a way of judgment of scripture. I think you are reading scripture without taking on the mind of Christ. With the mind of Christ, we see all of scripture as truth, all scripture as one coming from one eternal God speaking with one voice. If God says that it is only through faith that we are saved, it is accepted as truth of the Lord. If God says we are not saved by works, that is accepted as truth. When scripture says the new covenant in Christ is better, that is accepted. When God gives the covenant with Abraham, that is accepted. If God says the law is holy, that is accepted. We do not judge, we become little children and accept all. Our work is in seeing how it all works together.

The fleshly mind judges this all, changes it according to their own fleshly reason. They say that if one truth is truth, it means that another is false. They judge, divide, and take away from the power of the Lord. As an example is your judging all works according to only the truth you have learned, cancelling any other truth of the Lord. You stand on your decision that if you stand on faith for salvation, it cancels everything scripture says about works having any other place in truth. You are using truth and faith to cancel truth and faith. You have been tricked by a standard falsehood used by demons from the beginning of time. Scripture gives truth, all of scripture is truth.

Paul was very definitive as to what the works of the flesh were regarding the old man and these we are to put off. If we sow to the flesh we will reap corruption in this life which can be a verity of things that fall under corruption. As a new man in Christ we have been given the Spirit and we are to sow to the Spirit and reap everlasting life. We are to walk and live in the Spirit that we might bear the fruit of the Spirit. We did not receive the Spirit by the works of the law nor are we under the law when we are led by the Spirit. As a NT believer we are under grace and not the law. The law we have been placed under is the law of faith and the Spirit of life. The faith we have is according to the word and doctrine we have been taught by the Spirit through those that God has raised up in the church starting with the apostle's doctrine.

This is where we have our fellowship in the Spirit with the members of Christ's body. The law of Moses has been excelled and exceeded by the ministration of the Spirit who quickens us together according to the word and doctrine we have hid in our heart. The law of Moses has been made ineffective and obsolete when Christ sent the Spirit to dwell within (2 Cor 3). We are built together as members of Christ body for a habitation of God through the Spirit (Eph 2:22 - not the law). The law came by Moses but Christ has given us grace and truth through the Spirit (John 1:17) and it is of that fulness we have received (John 1:16). John's baptism was unto repentance but now it has been put aside and exceeded by the baptism of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and we have become new creature in Christ through the Spirit and not the law.

We are to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The law of repentance has nothing to do with the baptism of the NT believer. The sinner confesses himself to be a sinner and repents of his unbelief and receives the gospel of Christ and him crucified and when he does his sins are forgiven and he is washed clean by the blood of Christ. He is instantly justified, made righteous and has a perfect standing with a clean slate before God without a single work except to believe (John 6:29,30). He will never be made more acceptable notrcan anything he does make him less acceptable. It was all done through mercy and grace and it will be sustained by the word of power in the life of the believer through the Spirit, who will never leave nor forsake him.

This work that is established in the believer is a good work and it is eternal life which no man can take away, which can not be forfeited by the recipient and can not be rejected by false doctrine. The law in the Torah under Moses did not provide this work nor were the works of the Torah eternal but the work of faith we have of God through the words of Christ are eternal, for the words that He has spoken unto us through His Son is spirit and life (zoe - forever life). The new covenant is ratified by His eternal blood (Jn 6:54) and is established upon eternal life and through the eternal Spirit, providing man with eternal redemption, that God gives that no man can take away. This is what (Heb 9) is all about.

A great illustration how one uses Scriptural support while the other carries on in a completely philosophical manner.

 

[JesusIsAll]

As used by Paul, "works of the law" are works of obedience to the law given to Moses.

Yes, and there's also a New Testament tenor as "works of the law" being somebody who is obedient to the law, because it's on a list of religious requirements, not because they, in their heart, do so with any strong moral conviction and righteous intent, even rather than they're earning brownie points with God, that He's impressed, or to impress other people, that they're God's give to the human race.

The Pharisees were great keepers of the law, to "strain at a gnat" meaning they would shudder to swallow a tiny bug that eats blood, for the prohibition against eating blood, while, at the same time, harboring things like murderous hatred of the Lord Jesus, their very God! So, the phrase brings me to mind God's grace and faith required of Christianity, worshiping in Spirit and truth, in love, that it's nowhere and cursed to think the Lord wants our "works of the law," absent faith. It's a dark phrase to my mind I associate with evil Pharisees, or apostate and poisonous Judaizing "Christian" cults, because of Romans 3:27, Romans 9:32, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:2,5,10.

Of course, this has nothing to do with discounting obeying the Holy Spirit and answering the moral law also written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit in good conscience, again just pointing out that phrase is not generally accompanied by having anything good to saw about what the law can actually accomplish in lawless, unregenerate man, except convict us of sin and send us to hell.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Romans 8:6-9 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Here's to the drunk with legal fanaticism, just a slice of Matthew 23,

Matthew 23:23-27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel [always thought this so funny a simile, that the Lord Jesus must have had a sense of humor]. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.







[h=2][/h]

 

[RedTent]

As used by Paul, "works of the law" are works of obedience to the law given to Moses.

Now that the world has the decisions made by Elin, no Christian need study the word any longer or have any questions about God, just ask Elin. If you wonder if she knows all, just ask her, she will tell you. For those who search scripture for answers, read and compare these scriptures.

Joh_9:4We must do the works of Him who sent Me while it is day. Night is coming when no one can work.

Gal_3:5So then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?

1Ti_5:10and is well known for good works--that is, if she has brought up children, shown hospitality, washed the saints' feet, helped the afflicted, and devoted herself to every good work.

Tit_1:16They profess to know God, but they deny Him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, and disqualified for any good work.

Notice that scripture talks of how we must do works, that God looks at works, and that God knows us by our works. Yet scripture says that it is not by works OF THE LAW that the spirit points to. Scripture is all from God, and one scripture is never saying God says one thing at one time, another at another. All these scriptures are truth. There has to be something very different about works scripture tells us of and works of the law scripture is against. Elin says that scripture is against all work that Moses points to. Have any of you read the ten commandments that were written on stone? Elin said God turned against them, you can read all Paul says against the works of the law that Elin says are the laws God gave Moses.

 

[Elin]

Now that the world has the decisions made by Elin, no Christian need study the word any longer or
have any questions about God, just ask Elin.
If you wonder if she knows all, just ask her, she will tell you. For those who search scripture for answers, read and compare these scriptures.

You have me confused with someone else.

 

[psychomom]

Now that the world has the decisions made by Elin, no Christian need study the word any longer or have any questions about God, just ask Elin. If you wonder if she knows all, just ask her, she will tell you.

Ma'am, I do not wish to be unkind, but please may I refer you to your own thread?

http://christianchat.com/christian-family-forum/98246-can-we-saved-although-currently-choosing-treat-others-meanness.html

ps-- sorry i don't know how to properly link that...

 

[BradC]

As NT believers we must adhere to what we have been given as a church and body, in terms of the word, doctrine, the promises of God, the Spirit we have been given, the life that we live by faith and the work that we have been called to do through the grace of God by faith.

1 Thes 1:2,3 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thes 1:11,12 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

As NT believers we have been called to a 'work of faith' through a labour of love and with patience of hope, that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in us and us in Him according to grace from the Father and the Son. All of this falls under the good pleasure of His goodness as a work of faith with power. This work of faith that we are called to do is the preaching of the gospel through the love of the Spirit with patience and with hope and this work of faith is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16, 15:13,19, 1 Cor 1:18,23,24, 2:5, 4:20, 2 Cor 13:4, 1Pt 1:5).

This work of faith is not a work of the law but rather a work of Christ and the work of the ministry for the edification of the body of Christ. Every single time a sinner is converted from the error of his way and is placed in Christ through the power of God, that is a work of faith and the body is edified and added unto. With this calling and work of faith Christ is glorified in us and we in Him. These are the good works of faith and labor of love that we provoke one another unto according to (Heb 10:24). These are works produced by the fruit of the Spirit and there is no law that can govern them for they are wrought by the power of God (Gal 5:22,23).

 

[Elin]

Ma'am, I do not wish to be unkind, but please may I refer you to your own thread?

http://christianchat.com/christian-...currently-choosing-treat-others-meanness.html

ps-- sorry i don't know how to properly link that...

It's here.

 

[tribesman]

Today’s Christian’s definition of works of the law is all the work we do to please Christ as scripture tells us to do. In the deep sea scrolls, they talk of works of the law in a completely different way. Some people in those days put what they did to obey ahead of any Torah principle of God. If someone was drowning on Sunday, for instance, they would put forth no effort to save that person because the works of the law had more importance to them that the principle of kindness. No one thought of works of the law as the same as the law of the Torah, even those who believed in them ahead of the spiritual law of the Torah.

When God breathed scripture to Paul to record, God used the way the current population thought of the words Paul used. We are expected to use information available to us to find out what that was. God gave us the deep sea scrolls to open up a lot of understanding to us that was lost through the years...

Hope this isn't bothering...but what on earth is the deep sea scrolls?

 

[hishealingred]

Hope this isn't bothering...but what on earth is the deep sea scrolls?

I think they meant the dead sea scrolls.

 

[Splagna]

In the deep sea scrolls, they talk of works of the law in a completely different way. Some people in those days put what they did to obey ahead of any Torah principle of God. If someone was drowning on Sunday, for instance, they would put forth no effort to save that person because the works of the law had more importance to them that the principle of kindness. No one thought of works of the law as the same as the law of the Torah, even those who believed in them ahead of the spiritual law of the Torah.

Please be more specific. Where in the Dead Sea Scrolls are you taking your examples? Book and section, please.

 

[ThomistColin]

Please be more specific. Where in the Dead Sea Scrolls are you taking your examples? Book and section, please.

There are no sections. But if you're asking for which Scroll, its the one titled, "Concerning the Works of the Law" The entire scroll is about New Moon celebrations, Priestly Robes, the Laws of Sabbath, etc. Works of the Law are the liturgical rites and calendar. Those don't save you at all. (Though that doesn't mean to not do them, just that they don't save).

 

[iamsoandso]

Today’s Christian’s definition of works of the law is all the work we do to please Christ as scripture tells us to do. In the deep sea scrolls, they talk of works of the law in a completely different way. Some people in those days put what they did to obey ahead of any Torah principle of God. If someone was drowning on Sunday, for instance, they would put forth no effort to save that person because the works of the law had more importance to them that the principle of kindness. No one thought of works of the law as the same as the law of the Torah, even those who believed in them ahead of the spiritual law of the Torah.

When God breathed scripture to Paul to record, God used the way the current population thought of the words Paul used. We are expected to use information available to us to find out what that was. God gave us the deep sea scrolls to open up a lot of understanding to us that was lost through the years.

It is the same with “the law of Moses”. When Paul wrote about that, it was understood those laws had nothing to do with the actual law of Moses, they had to do with the lifestyle asked of the Jews so they kept separated from the gentiles who did not believe in the Lord. When we assign the meaning of that as the ten commandments, we would have been considered out of our minds by the people of Paul’s day.

it might help if you refer to them as the "DEAD sea scrolls" instead of the "DEEP sea scrolls",,,or "QUMRAN MANUSCRIPTS",,, Dead Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Splagna]

There are no sections. But if you're asking for which Scroll, its the one titled, "Concerning the Works of the Law"

Thanks. Just bought a copy (The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English, translated by Geza Vermes)and it breaks the scrolls down into what looks like chapter and verses. I don't see a scroll listed with the title "Concerning the Works of the Law", but with the help of Google I've found that people of the same persuasion as the OP are referring to scroll MMT 4Q394-9. Should be an interesting read.

 

[Flamingspirit]

Firstly, what IS the "law"? Here in the US alone most here do not know what law is.

 

[iamsoandso]

Firstly, what IS the "law"? Here in the US alone most here do not know what law is.

lol,,its fairly simple in the u.s.,,,,,"you are guilty from the beginning,,you will be punished severely for having the law take you and beat the switch",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[just-me]

The Works of The Law - Legalism in Galatians

Actually Paul does NOT use the expression "THE works of THE law" (even ONCE). The translators have wrongly inserted the definite article "THE". In the original Greek (as Young's literal translation tells us) Paul is talking about a more generic expression "works of law". NOT "the works of the law" - just "works of law". That's worth taking a note of, because it gives us a clue about what Paul is really criticizing.