What does it mean to say salvation is not of yourself?

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Mar 12, 2014
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#41
It's rather stupid on my part to continue answering these non biblical made up responses of yours. You are trying to tell me we choose Him out of our free will and on that basis God has put us in a group that God has chosen from the foundation of the world?
If you are going to be a heretical troll at least make some biblical sense, otherwise my responses will stop...I have better ways to waste my time.

There is no requirement that you have to respond to my posts, but I will continue to point out the error that is made in Eph 1:4 by anyone that makes it. Nowhere in the context of Eph 1:4 does it say God foreknew certain individuals to be saved unconditionally. The context shows that God foreknew certain traits, those traits being "in Him/Christ", "holy and without blame" and called "sons" and these traits only belong to those that are CONDITIONALLY in the group "Christian" and do not belong unconditionally to any individual outside this group.

Eph 1:1 Paul is writing to the "saints" at Ephesus, those that are "in Christ Jesus", ie, Paul is writing to CHRISTIANS and the "us" refers to that group Christian. You cannot provide a single NT example of an individual being a "saint" or "in Christ" who is OUTSIDE the group Christian.

[Calling me names will never prove the heresy known as Calvinism.]
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#42
It's usually a waste of time to "discuss" with people who either ripped Romans 9 out of their bibles or explained it away.
Romans 9 is very anti-Calvinism.

[By the way, Crossnote did not "discuss" anything with me but called me names.]
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#43
That approach is a sure approach to the Lake of Fire. For you do not obey. The approach of salvation is "God be merciful to me a sinner."

It is hopeless to trust in one's own good works, which are obediences to the Lord. Men are disobedient & merit the Lake of Fire for it. The wages of sin is death. Moreover, it is not in the nature of sinful man to obey. A new birth is required to change the nature. The only obedience which saves (from man's POV) is obedience to this command:

Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall saved.
Salvation requires rest from self-righteous supposed good works, and trusting the Savior to do His job, that of saving:

Heb 5:9 does not support your theory at all. Here it is with context:


To-day if ye shall hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation,
. . .
10 Wherefore I was displeased with this generation,
And said, They do always err in their heart:
But they did not know my ways;
11 As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest.


12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in anyone of you an evil heart of unbelief, . . .

to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? 19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.



4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. 3 For
we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said,

As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works; 5 and in this place again,
They shall not enter into my rest.


6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience,

[When anyone fails to trust the Lord for salvation, that man is in disobedience to the one command that he must obey for salvation: Believe . . . & be saved.]

. . .
There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For
he that has entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. 11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest,

[To trust Christ as Savior is a command, & the command includes resting from your works]

that no man fall after the same example of disobedience. . . .
Let us therefore draw near with boldness unto the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and may find grace to help us in time of need. . . .



7 Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, 8 though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 and having been made perfect,
he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation; 10 named of God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

[The only obedience which saves is obedience to
"Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved," which implies that you rest from your works and depend on Him alone -- Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.] . . .



but he, because he abideth for ever, hath his priesthood unchangeable. 25 Wherefore also he is able
to save to the uttermostthem that draw near unto God through him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.



26 For such a high priest became us, holy, guileless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 who needeth not daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people: for this he did once for all, when he offered up himself. . . .

Not believing and following Heb 5:9 and replacing it with false man-made teachings is the key to being lost.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#44
What does it mean to say salvation is not of yourself, but is of God?
What is God communicating through verses like below?

Ephesians 2
It simply means that God is the source of life and thus we cannot be saved apart from the life of God working in us.

Without grace teaching us, without God's influence upon us, we simply would not have any direction to follow, we would be in a dark place stumbling around.

Thus we are saved by grace THROUGH faith because faith = abiding = faithfulness = obedience whereby we submit ourselves to the lead of God. We "work together with God" (2Cor 6:1) and are thus "made the righteousness of God IN Him" (2Cor 5:21).

Many false teachers have twisted this gift of God into being an abstract provision whereby the "working dynamic" that produces heart transformation is removed.

Thus they teach "trust" in something that gives you a "position" without any real heart change taking place. That is why they can teach a message where one can be saved while still being disobedient, because they deny the working dynamic of "obedience to the truth" (ie. abiding in the Spirit of life).

What the Pharisees did is they focused on the letter of the law and on blood kinship as the source of salvation when those things were only shadows. They refused to come to the Spirit which is the source of the shadows. They rejected God in thinking that the shadow would bring life absent the source of the shadow.
 
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JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
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#45
I have heard the statement - It is easier to be saved than to be lost. - My question is then why does it seem so hard to be saved?

On the one hand we have salvation handed to us as a gift all we have to do is reach out and accept the gift. Why doesn't everyone in the world just take the gift? I mean Jesus paid the price He laid down His life so that I being dead in sin could then have the life He is offering me. Why isn't there a line outside churches to get this free gift?

Then we have us. We want to earn our way to heaven and we say it can't be that easy there must be something I have to do. I know I will clean myself up, I will give large amounts of money to the church, maybe help build that new church building surely that would be enough, I know I will go help the poor and on and on we try and earn our way into heaven....

The wages of sin is death, sin has a penalty someone had to die, it should have been all of us - every single one in the entire world should have died, because that is the cost of sin...but God stepped in and said My Son will pay the wages of sin so that you can have salvation and it is a gift you can live.

The only thing we can do is laydown our pride, our need to pay our way and look to Jesus and say Yes Lord, I will give You All of me, I will submit my will to You, I need You Lord I can't do anything to get where You are. I accept Your sacrifice Dear God please help me.

Jesus rushes into our hearts with the Holy Spirit and He fills us and then we are capable to repent and ask for forgiveness and accept the covering of blood that Jesus sacrifice has made for us. God looks at us then and no longer sees the wrongs we have committed but the perfect life that Jesus lived is now covering all of our sins. We are saved because Jesus died in our place. Worthy is the lamb that was slain to receive honor, glory, power and praise forever more. Amen
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#46
I have heard the statement - It is easier to be saved than to be lost. - My question is then why does it seem so hard to be saved?

On the one hand we have salvation handed to us as a gift all we have to do is reach out and accept the gift. Why doesn't everyone in the world just take the gift? I mean Jesus paid the price He laid down His life so that I being dead in sin could then have the life He is offering me. Why isn't there a line outside churches to get this free gift?

Then we have us. We want to earn our way to heaven and we say it can't be that easy there must be something I have to do. I know I will clean myself up, I will give large amounts of money to the church, maybe help build that new church building surely that would be enough, I know I will go help the poor and on and on we try and earn our way into heaven....

The wages of sin is death, sin has a penalty someone had to die, it should have been all of us - every single one in the entire world should have died, because that is the cost of sin...but God stepped in and said My Son will pay the wages of sin so that you can have salvation and it is a gift you can live.

The only thing we can do is laydown our pride, our need to pay our way and look to Jesus and say Yes Lord, I will give You All of me, I will submit my will to You, I need You Lord I can't do anything to get where You are. I accept Your sacrifice Dear God please help me.

Jesus rushes into our hearts with the Holy Spirit and He fills us and then we are capable to repent and ask for forgiveness and accept the covering of blood that Jesus sacrifice has made for us. God looks at us then and no longer sees the wrongs we have committed but the perfect life that Jesus lived is now covering all of our sins. We are saved because Jesus died in our place. Worthy is the lamb that was slain to receive honor, glory, power and praise forever more. Amen
You understand this quite well and you have placed this blessed assured hope deep into your heart. There has not been many that have done so because of fear and lack of understanding and acceptance. This post was outstanding.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#47
I have heard the statement - It is easier to be saved than to be lost. - My question is then why does it seem so hard to be saved?

On the one hand we have salvation handed to us as a gift all we have to do is reach out and accept the gift. Why doesn't everyone in the world just take the gift? I mean Jesus paid the price He laid down His life so that I being dead in sin could then have the life He is offering me. Why isn't there a line outside churches to get this free gift?

Then we have us. We want to earn our way to heaven and we say it can't be that easy there must be something I have to do. I know I will clean myself up, I will give large amounts of money to the church, maybe help build that new church building surely that would be enough, I know I will go help the poor and on and on we try and earn our way into heaven....

The wages of sin is death, sin has a penalty someone had to die, it should have been all of us - every single one in the entire world should have died, because that is the cost of sin...but God stepped in and said My Son will pay the wages of sin so that you can have salvation and it is a gift you can live.

The only thing we can do is laydown our pride, our need to pay our way and look to Jesus and say Yes Lord, I will give You All of me, I will submit my will to You, I need You Lord I can't do anything to get where You are. I accept Your sacrifice Dear God please help me.

Jesus rushes into our hearts with the Holy Spirit and He fills us and then we are capable to repent and ask for forgiveness and accept the covering of blood that Jesus sacrifice has made for us. God looks at us then and no longer sees the wrongs we have committed but the perfect life that Jesus lived is now covering all of our sins. We are saved because Jesus died in our place. Worthy is the lamb that was slain to receive honor, glory, power and praise forever more. Amen
I have often mused on this concept. The answer is of course inescapable. Men are proud. Men cannot accept something like eternal salvation as a gift. the natural reaction of man is to earn or attempt to earn so precious a prize. If there were something that men could do to participate in salvation multitudes would go to the ends of the earth to accomplish it. God made it a gift because He alone is worthy of the glory for saving those who will receive Christ as Savior. Fallen man has the attitude and nature of Satan who desires to be equal to God.

We need to come to Christ as a little child and set aside all our adult prejudices and ask of our Savior to save us from our sins. Children know they cannot do all for themselves. They need their fathers to help them, to provide for them.

John 3:18-21

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#48
I have often mused on this concept. The answer is of course inescapable. Men are proud. Men cannot accept something like eternal salvation as a gift. the natural reaction of man is to earn or attempt to earn so precious a prize. If there were something that men could do to participate in salvation multitudes would go to the ends of the earth to accomplish it. God made it a gift because He alone is worthy of the glory for saving those who will receive Christ as Savior. Fallen man has the attitude and nature of Satan who desires to be equal to God.

We need to come to Christ as a little child and set aside all our adult prejudices and ask of our Savior to save us from our sins. Children know they cannot do all for themselves. They need their fathers to help them, to provide for them.

John 3:18-21

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Nice

And that He did by sending The Helper, His Holy Spirit to guide us on our Father's path :)
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#49
I have often mused on this concept. The answer is of course inescapable. Men are proud. Men cannot accept something like eternal salvation as a gift. the natural reaction of man is to earn or attempt to earn so precious a prize. If there were something that men could do to participate in salvation multitudes would go to the ends of the earth to accomplish it. God made it a gift because He alone is worthy of the glory for saving those who will receive Christ as Savior. Fallen man has the attitude and nature of Satan who desires to be equal to God.

We need to come to Christ as a little child and set aside all our adult prejudices and ask of our Savior to save us from our sins. Children know they cannot do all for themselves. They need their fathers to help them, to provide for them.

John 3:18-21

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Nice

And that He did by sending The Helper, His Holy Spirit to guide us on our Father's path :)
I am curious as to why you would call that "nice" when he writes...

f there were something that men could do to participate in salvation multitudes would go to the ends of the earth to accomplish it.
That statement right there is a denial of "saved by grace THROUGH faith."

Many will not see that because they think faith is merely "trust" and is therefore disconnected from any "doing." What they generally trust in is a provision which they think occurred on the cross, a provision which effect a legal transaction of their sin to Jesus and the righteousness of Jesus to then. In other words they are trusting in a positional transaction which cloaks their actual manifest state.

We do participate in salvation. We have to work together with God lest we receive the grace of God to no working effect.

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

This is why Jesus taught...

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

If there is no doing then no house will be built upon the rock. God is the author of the salvation of those who obey Him because it is through obedience that grace is made effectual to the saving of the soul.

Is it that you do not understand this and therefore can say it is "nice" to claim that "we do not participate in our salvation" ?

I don't understand why you would "like" some of my posts where I clearly teach that we must work together with God.




2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Workers Together With Him - G4903 - sunergeō
From G4904; to be a fellow worker, that is, co-operate: - help (work) with, work (-er) together.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#50
There is no requirement that you have to respond to my posts, but I will continue to point out the error that is made in Eph 1:4 by anyone that makes it. Nowhere in the context of Eph 1:4 does it say God foreknew certain individuals to be saved unconditionally. The context shows that God foreknew certain traits, those traits being "in Him/Christ", "holy and without blame" and called "sons" and these traits only belong to those that are CONDITIONALLY in the group "Christian" and do not belong unconditionally to any individual outside this group.

Eph 1:1 Paul is writing to the "saints" at Ephesus, those that are "in Christ Jesus", ie, Paul is writing to CHRISTIANS and the "us" refers to that group Christian. You cannot provide a single NT example of an individual being a "saint" or "in Christ" who is OUTSIDE the group Christian.

[Calling me names will never prove the heresy known as Calvinism.]
What name did I call you? I said it's stupid on MY part...and still is.

Umm...'us' is made up of individuals. If captain schmo picked me and eight others for his baseball starting line up, I would say 'he chose us', meaning each of us 9 individuals. He didn't pick the nameless nine member team and each one of us decided we would be on the team.
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
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#52
Again, what names?
Oic it. ''If you are going to be a heretical troll'' a...a conditional name. Do you fit it? Are you going to be one?
But in any case, I'll apologize for the lashing out and that name.
I just think these same outlandish statements of yours get old. Don't be concerned in the future when I don't make a response...for the 500th time.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#53
I am curious as to why you would call that "nice" when he writes...



That statement right there is a denial of "saved by grace THROUGH faith."

Many will not see that because they think faith is merely "trust" and is therefore disconnected from any "doing." What they generally trust in is a provision which they think occurred on the cross, a provision which effect a legal transaction of their sin to Jesus and the righteousness of Jesus to then. In other words they are trusting in a positional transaction which cloaks their actual manifest state.

We do participate in salvation. We have to work together with God lest we receive the grace of God to no working effect.

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

This is why Jesus taught...

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

If there is no doing then no house will be built upon the rock. God is the author of the salvation of those who obey Him because it is through obedience that grace is made effectual to the saving of the soul.

Is it that you do not understand this and therefore can say it is "nice" to claim that "we do not participate in our salvation" ?

I don't understand why you would "like" some of my posts where I clearly teach that we must work together with God.




2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Workers Together With Him - G4903 - sunergeō
From G4904; to be a fellow worker, that is, co-operate: - help (work) with, work (-er) together.
Did not see that, just saw about the Holy Spirit and replied to those highlighted thoughts in his post...thanks
 
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Jan 19, 2013
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#54
Elin said:
God alone saves, but Christians can be one of the instruments God uses
to bring about the salvation of others.

Salvation is a one-time event (salvation past),
a process (salvation present) of being made more conformed to Christ's image, and
a completion (salvation future) at the resurrection of our glorified bodies.
God saves but the issue is who does He save and why? Heb 5:9 God saves those that obey Him.
Yes, anyone who is living a life of disobedience, is not being saved (salvation present),
which means they were not saved (salvation past),
and will not be saved (salvation future).

Those who are saved obey.
Those who do not obey are not saved.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#55
WomanLovesTX said:
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse says to me that even our faith is a gift from God.
Faith comes by hearing the word of God, Rom 10:17
Which does not keep it from being a gift.

and is not a gift God randomly gives to some and withholds from others.
Random or not makes it no less a gift (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Acv 18:27; Ro 12:3).

You've actually said nothing.

And so it remains, faith is a gift.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#56
Did not see that, just saw about the Holy Spirit and replied to those highlighted thoughts in his post...thanks
Just to add, what you said to me is correct.

Please do not assume (not saying you do) that I do not see things like that, it just that at that moment there was something else more important to be said. I am sure you have read some of my posts and you can see that I propose that we are workers together with Him. We each have our own purpose.

And yes, what you said to me was correct, and that you did well. And yes, what I said to him was also correct, the Holy Spirit is called Helper, not Doer. Let me stop because I do not want to take away from what you said.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#57
The "us" is the group Christian,
it was this group God foreknew would be saved and not the individual apt from the group.
So the individual must choose to obey the gospel and become part of this foreknown group
Wow. . .that's some serious re-writing of the word of God in Eph 2:8-9, where
we are saved through grace by faith, and not by what we do (Eph 2:8-9),
such as "choosing to obey the gospel."

Obeying the gospel comes after being saved, not before.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#58
if man has no role in his own salvation then
how does God determine who He will or will not save?
So God owes you an explanation of how he makes his determination?

Well, your question is answered: the same way he determined to choose Jacob and not Esau;
i.e., by his sovereign choice, for his own purposes.