A believer is not sinless., A believer is guiltless...

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ladylynn

Guest
you can lead a sinner to grace but ya can't make them recieve.

Not only that psalm6819., it's even more difficult (it seems) to try and lead another Christian to grace but watch them not receive it but deny it's even there for us.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Of course an unbeliever can turn from sin because the bible says to repent and believe, not believe and repent.
repent does not mean turn from sin, That is a false religious interpretation.

Repent means to admit your guilt admit your hopelessness, and stop relying on the world system and yourself.

It means to turn to Christ, and receive his free gift of eternal life..

I can not turn from sin as an unbelievers, I will always be a dog, and even if I act like a christian, I will return to my vomit..

or hide my sin, so it can not be seen and people judge me..
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Can you show again the verses by the Apostle Paul where he states, through the Holy Spirit, that one can lose the gift of salvation after receiving it?
Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
1 Tim 6:10

I charge you to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ
1 Tim 6:13-14

which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith.
1 Tim 6:21

They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness.....Blackest darkness is reserved for them.
2 Peter 2:15:17

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
2 Peter 2:20

All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.
Heb 11:13

My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
James 5:19-20

But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Matt 10:33

But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.
Luke 12:9

If we disown him, he will also disown us;
2 Tim 2:12

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.
Rev 14:12

It is obvious staying true to faith in Jesus is what matters, not a temporary blip. Secondly change that is a reflection of this faith proves the faith is real and not just a pipe dream. It is through communion and fellowship that we gain an understanding of God, when His word dwells in our hearts and we begin to put things into action in obedience.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Not only that psalm6819., it's even more difficult (it seems) to try and lead another Christian to grace but watch them not receive it but deny it's even there for us.
nothing can tear a true believer down and make him useless to God like legalism.. a rejection of Grace,,
 
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psalm6819

Guest
What are you saying? Because you sin as a sinner while being called a saint, Christ in you makes you righteous?
That's right, Christ in me makes me righteous-not law obeying, but the hope of glory-Christ in me.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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repent does not mean turn from sin, That is a false religious interpretation.

Repent means to admit your guilt admit your hopelessness, and stop relying on the world system and yourself.

It means to turn to Christ, and receive his free gift of eternal life..

I can not turn from sin as an unbelievers, I will always be a dog, and even if I act like a christian, I will return to my vomit..

or hide my sin, so it can not be seen and people judge me..
Repent means to change the mind, which means to turn and separate from sin in the mind. That takes an act of the will. Then a person believes.

Conviction first, repentance second, belief third.

You're confusing repentance with sanctification (turning and abstaining from sin).
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Amen...repent ( Greek = change your mind) and turn to Christ now for your life and salvation. Stop relying on your own works and life and rely on His finished work for us.

The "works" based people find this repentance to be against their own self-effort. Religion is a crafty creature and has a deceptive father of lies that is behind it.

It has the "appearance " of righteousness but in reality denies the power. - which is total trust in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.


2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.




repent does not mean turn from sin, That is a false religious interpretation.

Repent means to admit your guilt admit your hopelessness, and stop relying on the world system and yourself.

It means to turn to Christ, and receive his free gift of eternal life..

I can not turn from sin as an unbelievers, I will always be a dog, and even if I act like a christian, I will return to my vomit..

or hide my sin, so it can not be seen and people judge me..
 
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psalm6819

Guest
Jesus washes us clean of sin, so we are righteous.
It is not Jesus's righteousness that makes us righteous. We are righteous because our faith is deemed as righteousness.
But we are not allowed to walk in sin and claim we are righteous.

So God does not see Christs righteousness instead of our sin, he sees a repented redeemed sinner turned saint.

I have heard this righteousness argument but it is not biblical.

“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”
1 Peter 2:24
Wrong,you better pick up your Bible and read it....as far as east is from west? Blessed is the man to whom God will impute no sin???
 
Feb 24, 2015
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repent does not mean turn from sin, That is a false religious interpretation.
If you believe repentance is not turning from sin, desiring to walk righteously, then you have not repented yourself.
You seem to deny that people could walk as to the law, blameless, and yet not be called righteous.

Paul says their faith made them righteous, not their works. So if someone relies on their works to make them acceptable to God they will fail.

But you believe even if you loose your faith you are still saved. Paul and the apostles talk about people who have fallen away, Peter at length about those who did have faith but no more and what is their future. It is destruction.

But if they are brought back, they will be saved from death, and have their sins forgiven.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Wrong,you better pick up your Bible and read it....as far as east is from west? Blessed is the man to whom God will impute no sin???
Wrong? You have to come up with something you are suggesting. God takes our sins away, but that does not make us righteous or acceptable. We are deemed righteous because of our faith.

And I am reading the bible and quoting it. What you have to realise is we can easily project scripture or ideas onto the bible and ignore things that do not fit. It takes time to understand the different issues and then confirm the apostles were in agreement with which position.

I have to say, in all honesty, until you have confidence in the Lord it is hard to read scripture openly, because it does effect how you see the Lord and other people you care about. This makes it hard sometimes to see the truth, because there is a lot hanging on various interpretations.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Interesting about repent

In greek the translation is to change your mind, but in Hebrew and the old testemant, repentance was always to turn from sinful behaviour to righteousness. Look into the sacrifice of atonement, and what this meant to the people of Israel and all they wrote about it. Now reading a few verses and spending 1 hour going through what you think it means is much less than thousands of years of practice, writing, tradition, culture. This is why such a central word to faith and God, to redefine it is actually heresy.

Sin matters because it demonstrates a lack of communion with God. Habitual sin destroys faith, and those caught in habitual sin will always change the gospel to silence their guilty conscience. So the core issues will always be changed, repentance, walking in faith, righteousness, and justification. Sin will be removed from the scene, because that way there is no guilt left, just satan speaking, which can be dismissed as a demon.

Add to this faith and the loss of it does not matter, you have religion in its true sense, once joined you never leave, even though in your beliefs you have and disown Jesus.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Repent means to change the mind, which means to turn and separate from sin in the mind. That takes an act of the will. Then a person believes.
repent means to turn and change mind your right.

But man can not turn from or stop sin on his own (thats why wee needed the cross)

So thats why true repentance has to have an acknowledgement that Hey God I can not stop sin, I can not even see that some of the things you call sin is sin (the things of God are FOOLISHNESS to thse who are not his) But I am willing to open myself up to you..



Conviction first, repentance second, belief third.
Faith, Belief is not enough.

And you can not know all sin, or even understand what sin really is,, SO you cant repent of sin, That is legalism.


You're confusing repentance with sanctification (turning and abstaining from sin).

No. I am just saying, I can not turn from sin as a non believer.. That is sanctification..
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
Interesting about repent

In greek the translation is to change your mind, but in Hebrew and the old testemant,
New Covenant repentance is not old covenant repentance. Stop trying to bring old covenant concepts and precepts over into the New Covenant.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
If you believe repentance is not turning from sin, desiring to walk righteously, then you have not repented yourself.
There is a HUGE difference between a desire to walk righteously and being able to do it.

So get off your high horse and stop gibing yourself so much credit.

You did not turn from sin before you God saved no one did.

You seem to deny that people could walk as to the law, blameless, and yet not be called righteous.
You seem to deny that only one man ever walked the earth sinless. And the fact that the burden of the law was called to much for anyone to handle. Which is why we should be lead to Christ. What they claimed to do is not the same as reality.. The phairsee claimed it, But reality was not the truth.

That is why legalism will never win out over grace it lies to itself.



Paul says their faith made them righteous, not their works. So if someone relies on their works to make them acceptable to God they will fail.
Then tell me, why are you relying on works?
But you believe even if you loose your faith you are still saved. Paul and the apostles talk about people who have fallen away, Peter at length about those who did have faith but no more and what is their future. It is destruction.

Nope. thats a lie, One who ever had true faith will never fall. .Peter had true faith, So did David, So did Abrahan, thats why they could commit such great grace sins, and still have true and perfect faith in God. Which faltered (As David said, give me the joy of my salvation back) but will never stop.

Many CLAIM to have faith, and even walk in it, But never had faith, John makes it clear. these people never belonged to the church, As did James, because their faith was dead..


But if they are brought back, they will be saved from death, and have their sins forgiven.

If thay had to be saved again, they were never saved to begin with.

Of you teahc they lost salvation, It must be earned, and you teach works..
 
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ladylynn

Guest
Repent means to change the mind, which means to turn and separate from sin in the mind. That takes an act of the will. Then a person believes.

Conviction first, repentance second, belief third.

You're confusing repentance with sanctification (turning and abstaining from sin).
Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

repent does not mean turn from sin, That is a false religious interpretation.

Repent means to admit your guilt admit your hopelessness, and stop relying on the world system and yourself.

It means to turn to Christ, and receive his free gift of eternal life..

I can not turn from sin as an unbelievers, I will always be a dog, and even if I act like a christian, I will return to my vomit..

or hide my sin, so it can not be seen and people judge me..





EG is correct here as he describes repentance for the unsaved person. It does not involve sanctification. He is seeing his sin as it is in God's sight for maybe the first time and there is now sorrow and guilt and shame for the wretchedness the sinner sees. This heavy load that can't be gotten rid of by himself. It becomes too much to carry.

At the foot of the cross the sinner finds forgiveness for his sin and is able to drop that heavy load right there (like Pilgrim did in the book "Pilgrim's Progress")

Like EG says, the sinner has no power to turn from their sin and get clean before coming to Jesus. he has to GET forgiveness and the only Way is Jesus Christ..the Way the Truth and the Life. Then he is able to leave that sin and know he is really forgiven because Jesus died on the cross for the sin and shame. Wow. He is born again. The promise "whosoever will" in John 3:16 is believed.

Later that new born again believer will learn (hopefully is getting good teaching) about how Jesus not only saves, but also keeps us. he learns about what he has in Christ., who Jesus is and what He died to give him. He then finds out Jesus also paid for his sanctification. Then the Holy Spirit reveals more truth and it is then the believer has his mind "renewed" daily and he is changed more and more and he begins the repentance that causes him to change His mind and agree with what God says in the Bible.

 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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3,189
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If you believe repentance is not turning from sin, desiring to walk righteously, then you have not repented yourself.
You seem to deny that people could walk as to the law, blameless, and yet not be called righteous.
Desiring to walk righteously doesn't cause one to walk righteously.

You are confusing mens will with ability.


You could walk blameless according to the law and not be Righteous. Righteousness only comes by Faith. The Law is not of faith.


There are lots of people who think they walk blamelessly according to the law. That is because their understanding of the law is lacking.

They walk according to a carnal understanding of the law.


I wonder if you, yourself, believe you walk blameless according to the law. I bet you do.
 
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ladylynn

Guest
Wrong? You have to come up with something you are suggesting. God takes our sins away, but that does not make us righteous or acceptable. We are deemed righteous because of our faith.

And I am reading the bible and quoting it. What you have to realise is we can easily project scripture or ideas onto the bible and ignore things that do not fit. It takes time to understand the different issues and then confirm the apostles were in agreement with which position.

I have to say, in all honesty, until you have confidence in the Lord it is hard to read scripture openly, because it does effect how you see the Lord and other people you care about. This makes it hard sometimes to see the truth, because there is a lot hanging on various interpretations.

As Ricky Ricardo always says "IYIYIYIYI"

Just go to your Bible concordance and find the word Righteous.,Righteousness. You will find many verses describing the believer. One that is really great that I know by heart is 2 Cor.5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The Bible calls us the righteousness of GOD IN Christ.... can that get any more clear for us???
Concordances are a MAJOR NEED and blessing to have when we need to know the truths of descriptive words and to actually SEE them bombarded together once formally scattered throughout the Bible. God wants us to be bombarded with the truth of His Word.
 
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ladylynn

Guest
[TABLE="align: center"]
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[TD="width: 100%, align: left"] Exodus 13:21
And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so as to go by day and night.
[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 3, align: left"] When the children of Israel were wandering in the desert, God led them by going before them in a pillar of cloud by day and pillar of fire by night.

By day, God spread the pillar of cloud as a covering over His people in the desert to prevent the scorching sun from striking them down. The people were shaded and kept cool. Today, you are also under His covering. He will not allow you to be struck down (Psalm 121:3–8), nor be oppressed by the “heat” of the day. (Isaiah 54:14)

At night, when the desert became dark and cold, God gave His people the pillar of fire to light the way for them, as well as to keep them warm and safe. Today, as you walk with God, you will not be overwhelmed by the cold, dark places in life because God’s Word says, “You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.” (1 Thessalonians 5:5) You will not fear the terror by night or the pestilence that walks in darkness because God will deliver you from them. (Psalm 91:5–6)

Like the children of Israel, who only needed to look up, and keep their eyes on the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire, all you need to do today is to look up and keep your eyes on Jesus. When you need His direction for a situation, look to Jesus who has the words of eternal life. (John 6:68) When you see symptoms of sickness in your body, look to Jesus who has borne away every disease and physical affliction. (Matthew 8:17)

When the children of Israel were bitten by serpents in the desert, God told Moses to make a bronze serpent and put it on a pole—a picture of Christ being judged on the cross. (John 3:14) Those who looked at the bronze serpent instead of their wounds were healed. (Numbers 21:9) He who looks to Jesus lives!

Beloved, look to Jesus. He is your covering, protection and deliverance!

[/TD]
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[/TABLE]




When I read this kind of devotional, the realization that not many of the believers on CC will agree is something I'm aware of when I post it. But I believe so much help is available when we know these truths as ours. The desire to share the hope is why it's being posted.

Because Christians have gone through--are going through---will go through tribulations in their lives., must not stop other Christians from the path of living by faith and not by sight for their OWN walk. We can't know someone elses walk in it's various details. We have enough to do to walk our daily path. I do believe that is why we are told to weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice. We can encourage and uphold one another but we can't walk each others lives by our own faith.

Hebrews 11:1 Amplified Bible

"Now Faith is the assurance the confirmation, the title deed of the things we hope for, being the proof of the things we do not see and the conviction of their reality. (faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses) "

“You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.” (1 Thessalonians 5:5) You will not fear the terror by night or the pestilence that walks in darkness because God will deliver you from them. (Psalm 91:5–6)

These verses go along with who we are IN Christ and why "believers are not sinless but believers are guiltless" We are always walking "in the light" because we are NOT of the night anymore nor of darkness anymore. We have been made children of light when we were born again. (Those who walk in darkness.....those are the unsaved).

So as believers "sons" we can claim the promises in the Bible as ours. We have to believe and claim them by faith OR we can perish for lack of knowledge of our right to them. satan comes as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. I've found one of the major ways he comes is by using ignorance and our own guilt.

Those 2 things stop us from receiving grace and help in time of our need. It's there for us but because we have not been taught about it, we don't claim it and live with those promises as ours daily. A preacher I listen to has said that the Bible says "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. But if we do not know or believe the truth., it cannot set US as individuals free."
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 100%, align: left"] Exodus 13:21
And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so as to go by day and night. [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3, align: left"] When the children of Israel were wandering in the desert, God led them by going before them in a pillar of cloud by day and pillar of fire by night.

By day, God spread the pillar of cloud as a covering over His people in the desert to prevent the scorching sun from striking them down. The people were shaded and kept cool. Today, you are also under His covering. He will not allow you to be struck down (Psalm 121:3–8), nor be oppressed by the “heat” of the day. (Isaiah 54:14)

At night, when the desert became dark and cold, God gave His people the pillar of fire to light the way for them, as well as to keep them warm and safe. Today, as you walk with God, you will not be overwhelmed by the cold, dark places in life because God’s Word says, “You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.” (1 Thessalonians 5:5) You will not fear the terror by night or the pestilence that walks in darkness because God will deliver you from them. (Psalm 91:5–6)

Like the children of Israel, who only needed to look up, and keep their eyes on the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire, all you need to do today is to look up and keep your eyes on Jesus. When you need His direction for a situation, look to Jesus who has the words of eternal life. (John 6:68) When you see symptoms of sickness in your body, look to Jesus who has borne away every disease and physical affliction. (Matthew 8:17)

When the children of Israel were bitten by serpents in the desert, God told Moses to make a bronze serpent and put it on a pole—a picture of Christ being judged on the cross. (John 3:14) Those who looked at the bronze serpent instead of their wounds were healed. (Numbers 21:9) He who looks to Jesus lives!

Beloved, look to Jesus. He is your covering, protection and deliverance!
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]




When I read this kind of devotional, the realization that not many of the believers on CC will agree is something I'm aware of when I post it. But I believe so much help is available when we know these truths as ours. The desire to share the hope is why it's being posted.

Because Christians have gone through--are going through---will go through tribulations in their lives., must not stop other Christians from the path of living by faith and not by sight for their OWN walk. We can't know someone elses walk in it's various details. We have enough to do to walk our daily path. I do believe that is why we are told to weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice. We can encourage and uphold one another but we can't walk each others lives by our own faith.

Hebrews 11:1 Amplified Bible

"Now Faith is the assurance the confirmation, the title deed of the things we hope for, being the proof of the things we do not see and the conviction of their reality. (faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses) "

“You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.” (1 Thessalonians 5:5) You will not fear the terror by night or the pestilence that walks in darkness because God will deliver you from them. (Psalm 91:5–6)

These verses go along with who we are IN Christ and why "believers are not sinless but believers are guiltless" We are always walking "in the light" because we are NOT of the night anymore nor of darkness anymore. We have been made children of light when we were born again. (Those who walk in darkness.....those are the unsaved).

So as believers "sons" we can claim the promises in the Bible as ours. We have to believe and claim them by faith OR we can perish for lack of knowledge of our right to them. satan comes as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. I've found one of the major ways he comes is by using ignorance and our own guilt.

Those 2 things stop us from receiving grace and help in time of our need. It's there for us but because we have not been taught about it, we don't claim it and live with those promises as ours daily. A preacher I listen to has said that the Bible says "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. But if we do not know or believe the truth., it cannot set US as individuals free."
it is a lifelong thing we must always be focused on.. We have to continually trust in God and Christ to strengthen us,, or we will crash and burn.. in whatever area of our life we are struggling in..