A dangerous theology?

RickyZ · May 5, 2013

Take a good hard look at the world around us.

The world's financial systems are in crisis. Economies far and wide are on the brink of failure, and with them their governments. Greed has increased to where 1% of the people control 93% of the wealth. A worldwide currency is already in development, waiting for the inevitable failure of the current systems to be put in place

False religions are sprouting like weeds, while believers in the one true God are mocked and despised, and called intolerant and unloving. More and more proclaim the name of Jesus while abandoning His teachings, drawing throngs and followers who are deceived.

Sexual deviancy is rampant. Homosexuality and pornography are not just tolerated but mainstreamed and applauded. Shameful presentations of self have been blessed under the guise of individual expression. OTC "Plan B"s make fornications consequence free.

Society has become hardened. People are rude, arrogant and self centered, and love for neighbors has turned into contempt. Lawlessness abounds as people find equal contempt for authority. Charity has been forsaken for selfishness and the sense of "me". Common sense has been replaced by mass lunacy.

Look at what the Bible says about the end. Love grows cold while the hearts of men embrace evil. True believers will be betrayed by family and persecuted even unto death. The world will be polluted and life on the planet will suffer incredible losses. Food will cost a day's wages, and buying it will require sworn allegiance to one who opposes God. Famine and disease will ravage mankind. Mankind, including many of the faith, will go apostate against God.

***

There are those who believe that we live under the millennial reign of Christ, and that He rules and reigns over the current age. They somehow find sense in humanity and the world going to hell under the rule of God.

Remind me here - What is it called when we attribute evil to the Spirit of God?

kardiaoangelous · May 5, 2013

RickyZ said:

Take a good hard look at the world around us.

The world's financial systems are in crisis. Economies far and wide are on the brink of failure, and with them their governments. Greed has increased to where 1% of the people control 93% of the wealth. A worldwide currency is already in development, waiting for the inevitable failure of the current systems to be put in place

False religions are sprouting like weeds, while believers in the one true God are mocked and despised, and called intolerant and unloving. More and more proclaim the name of Jesus while abandoning His teachings, drawing throngs and followers who are deceived.

Sexual deviancy is rampant. Homosexuality and pornography are not just tolerated but mainstreamed and applauded. Shameful presentations of self have been blessed under the guise of individual expression. OTC "Plan B"s make fornications consequence free.

Society has become hardened. People are rude, arrogant and self centered, and love for neighbors has turned into contempt. Lawlessness abounds as people find equal contempt for authority. Charity has been forsaken for selfishness and the sense of "me". Common sense has been replaced by mass lunacy.

Look at what the Bible says about the end. Love grows cold while the hearts of men embrace evil. True believers will be betrayed by family and persecuted even unto death. The world will be polluted and life on the planet will suffer incredible losses. Food will cost a day's wages, and buying it will require sworn allegiance to one who opposes God. Famine and disease will ravage mankind. Mankind, including many of the faith, will go apostate against God.

***

There are those who believe that we live under the millennial reign of Christ, and that He rules and reigns over the current age. They somehow find sense in humanity and the world going to hell under the rule of God.

Remind me here - What is it called when we attribute evil to the Spirit of God?

Everything you have observed here is right on target. And what are we who do understand supposed to do during this time? Are we supposed to fight against the inevitable fulfillment of prophecy? Or, what are we told to do?

RickyZ · May 7, 2013

We are to prepare for tomorrow but be ready to go right now. And to help others see and learn what the prophecies have to say in truth.

It's funny how those who follow this doctrine also often do not believe in the gifts of the Spirit. 2 Timothy 3:5, having a form of godliness but denying it's power...

maxwel · May 7, 2013

If anyone thinks we are currently in the millennial reign of Christ,
I'd have to politely suggest they just turn on the nightly news for a couple of minutes.

That should be enough to clear everything up.

Abiding · May 7, 2013

Not to shift anyone beliefs about the millennial reign of Christ but at least
understand what you refute. Jesus Christ is sitting on the throne ruling His
Kingdom. He is not ruling those not in His kingdom. The world is under the power
of Satan as the bible states.

RickyZ · May 7, 2013

Right, Jesus Christ is sitting upon His throne in heaven. The world is under the power of satan as the Bible states. Ergo the world is not under Christ's rule. That is the whole point of the millenial rule, to put the world under His rule. This world, this planet, under the physical rule of Man as God originally intended with Adam.

Earlmayknowornot · May 7, 2013

We are to stand and after having done everything to stand.........................STAND!!!

RickyZ · May 8, 2013

Thank you Katy. I don't know about preterist heresy, but I do know some fine and otherwise God loving people are getting cheated out of all that's been promised them, and left with a less functional Christianity at a time when we need to function our best.

RickyZ · May 10, 2013

The danger in this theology is it's catch-22 nature, and the attribution of the power and authority of God. Please step back with me to the beginning:

The purpose of the Messiah is to restore all that was lost in Adam's fall, back to the way God intended. God's intention with Adam was for Adam to exercise physical rule over this physical world. So to restore all that which was lost by Adam, requires the Messiah to restore physical rule over this physical world. That is the whole point and intent of the Millennium. To restore the rule of Man over this physical world that Adam lost.

Now, if you believe that this world is here and now under the physical rule of Christ, then you have to explain how it is that the rule of Christ produces an apostate world. An apostate world is the goal of evil, so you have to be very careful when associating the rule of Christ with the proliferation of evil in the world. It's a very dangerous line to tread.

If you believe the Millennial rule is purely symbolic and not physical, then you call into question the power and mission of the Messiah in restoring all of that which was God's intent. Is Jesus not able to exercise physical rule over this physical world? Or did He say He'd restore all things? To dismiss that He might have the power and will and intention to restore such physical authority calls into mind when satan tempted Him in the desert with a false version of the real authority to come. That's why it raises my brow to see that these are the same people who believe the gifts of the Spirit are dead. What is about those who have a form of Godliness but deny it's power? Again a dangerous line to tread.

danschance · May 10, 2013

RickyZ said:

I for one agree with you. You bring up an interesting point. Lucifer tempted Jesus by showing Him all the kingdoms of the world and told Jesus Bow down and worship and it's yours". That suggests that Christ wants to rule the world, including all the people of the world and all forms of government. We even see this clearly in scripture in Isaiah 9:6 " ..and the government shall be upon his shoulders". As you mentioned in your first post, all we need to do is watch the news and see that Christ is not reigning or governing the world.

Abiding · May 10, 2013

RickyZ said:

Right, but how? Read 1 Cor 15. The bible never says Jesus will reign on earth with sinners.
All enemies will be put under His feet first then the end will come when He takes the kingdom
up to the Father. In otherwords He will not return until then. After that death will be defeated
and there will be no more enemies. Now do the math with that. And look at the implications,
then fit in your kingdom if you can.

Show me a verse that says Jesus rules the world(unbelievers)

Abiding · May 10, 2013

Also what are you saying is dangerous? And why?

pickles · May 10, 2013

The part that I question is if satan is bound, no longer decieving the nations?
Then why has he had power and why does he have power still?
I see parts of revelations fullfilled, but there is still much yet to come.
Bur each must decide, and know that what they believe, is given and true in
Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.

God bless
pickles

Ariel82 · May 10, 2013

Always thought the NEW heaven and the NEW Earth was when physical rule of the Universe was placed under Christ's control restoring what God intended. (revelation 21-22)

not the kingdom spoken of in Revelation 20.

.......so this can't possibly be happening right now?

doulos · May 10, 2013

RickyZ said:

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Col1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

John was not in error when he said he was already “in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ”. Doesn’t Scripture tell us that when we are born again that God translates us into His Son’s kingdom? How can that be if the kingdom is still in our future?

Scripture tells us we have already been made kings and priests.
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Christ established His kingdom on earth back in the first century, He made us kings and priests to reign over this earth, while He reigns from His throne in heaven. Sadly over the last approximately 2000 years the church has done a poor job in wielding the power Christ gave us. As a result with each heresy that we allowed to enter the church we opened the door a little farther until finally satan is loose again.

1Co 15:24 - 28 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Don’t these verses tell us that Christ reigns while His enemies are still about? Isn’t the purpose of Christs kingdom to place His enemies under His feet? How can we expect a perfect world before Christ places all His enemies under His feet? Don’t these verses tell us that when Christ defeats His enemies and places them under His feet He then returns the Kingdom to His Father? Doesn’t this occur at the last trump?

Rev 10:6 - 7 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

How can there be a millennial reign after this iF God is reigning for ever and ever? How can there be a millennial reign after the mystery of God is finished and time as we know it ceases because we have entered eternity? How do you measure time in eternity if eternity has no beginning or end?

So now you are a mind reader? What makes you think that all who believe that Christ is presently reigning believe the gifts of the spirit are dead? I believe the millenial reign started in the first century just as Scripture stated it would, and I don’t believe the gifts of the Spirit are dead. Do you always assign beliefs to others who disagree with you?

Why don’t you tell us, seeing as how you are the one denying that you have been made a king or priest and as a result fail to use the God given power we hold to change the world? Maybe if the premil folks would have recognized the power Christ gave them and wielded it with the power and authority of kings and priests before God then maybe the church and the world wouldn’t be in such a sad state!

To see a hermeneutically sound study of Scripture showing the error of the commonly taught premillenial heresy see Millenial Musings < click

RickyZ · May 10, 2013

Rev 20: 1-6. And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and
holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the
dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a
thousand years. 3He threw him into
the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the
nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set
free for a short time.
4I saw thrones on
which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the
souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and
because of the word of God. They[SUP]a[/SUP] had
not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their
foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand
years. 5(The rest of the
dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the
first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy
are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power
over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him
for a thousand years.

After God's wrath is poured out satan is bound and Christ rules with the saints over this world for 1,000 years. Those who remain on earth after the pouring out of Gods wrath will be the subjects of that rule, and by default they will be "Christians" because there will be no alternative (since satan is bound and unable to act upon this world anymore). That is why satan is loosed in the end, to restore the choice of free will to people who for 1000 years had no choice. It is not until then that this world is decreated, satan is cast away for eternity, and the new heavens and earth appear.

At what point between the fall and now has satan been bound and unable to act, particularly for 1000 years? satan rules over this world, so when he is bound and replaced by Christ it will be over this world. Yes we as kings and priests can and should impart Christs rule over individual events here and now, but we can not rule wholly unimpeded until satan is bound. And there is danger in believing that satan is bound here and now.

There is a difference between holding power and exercising it. Think of the USA's foray into Iraq. For sure we hold the power to completely rule Iraq, but the exercise of our 'rule' there was in part not whole. It is the difference between soldiers imparting rule over individual events in a land under general arab rule (which is what we did), and a wholesale expelling of the arab rule and our physically stepping in and ruling over everything (which is what Christ will do). It is the difference between in part and in whole.

We are, here and now, a drop of oil in a bottle of water. Yes the drop can displace some water and rise to the top, but it still exists in a larger bottle of water. When Christ rules, the water will be emptied and no more in the way, and the bottle will be filled with oil.

And yes I realize that not all who hold to this theology declare the gifts are dead. But I do find that an unusually high number of them do, and I don't think it's just coincidence.

And Abiding, I love ya man, but you can't interpret the multitude of verses on the subject by just one verse. Instead, find the truth of the one within the parameters of the multitude.

Abiding · May 10, 2013

RickyZ said:

Rev 20: 1-6. And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and
holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the
dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a
thousand years. 3He threw him into
the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the
nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set
free for a short time.
4I saw thrones on
which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the
souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and
because of the word of God. They[SUP]a[/SUP] had
not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their
foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand
years. 5(The rest of the
dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the
first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy
are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power
over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him
for a thousand years.

After God's wrath is poured out satan is bound and Christ rules with the saints over this world for 1,000 years. Those who remain on earth after the pouring out of Gods wrath will be the subjects of that rule, and by default they will be "Christians" because there will be no alternative (since satan is bound and unable to act upon this world anymore). That is why satan is loosed in the end, to restore the choice of free will to people who for 1000 years had no choice. It is not until then that this world is decreated, satan is cast away for eternity, and the new heavens and earth appear.

At what point between the fall and now has satan been bound and unable to act, particularly for 1000 years? satan rules over this world, so when he is bound and replaced by Christ it will be over this world. Yes we as kings and priests can and should impart Christs rule over individual events here and now, but we can not rule wholly unimpeded until satan is bound. And there is danger in believing that satan is bound here and now.

There is a difference between holding power and exercising it. Think of the USA's foray into Iraq. For sure we hold the power to completely rule Iraq, but the exercise of our 'rule' there was in part not whole. It is the difference between soldiers imparting rule over individual events in a land under general arab rule (which is what we did), and a wholesale expelling of the arab rule and our physically stepping in and ruling over everything (which is what Christ will do). It is the difference between in part and in whole.

We are, here and now, a drop of oil in a bottle of water. Yes the drop can displace some water and rise to the top, but it still exists in a larger bottle of water. When Christ rules, the water will be emptied and no more in the way, and the bottle will be filled with oil.

And yes I realize that not all who hold to this theology declare the gifts are dead. But I do find that an unusually high number of them do, and I don't think it's just coincidence.

And Abiding, I love ya man, but you can't interpret the multitude of verses on the subject by just one verse. Instead, find the truth of the one within the parameters of the multitude.

Would it have done you any good to have also quoted Jesus, Peter, Jude?
Id bet not if 1 cor 15 didnt instruct you. Not to mention OT prophecies.
By the way what is dangerous? And why?

RickyZ · May 10, 2013

For a perfect example see Zone's thread about the world's experts promoting deviency and immorality, and then explain to me exactly how that relates to Christ ruling over the here and now.

Abiding · May 10, 2013

RickyZ said:

Jesus Christ is only ruling over His kingdom..ok? Thats where your misunderstanding is.
Anyone can fabricate a strawman. And His kingdom is every nation, tribe and tongue
but not over His enemies...those He is at this time putting under His feet...get it?
then the end will come....no more death..ok?

Me thinks you are building off a verse or two

zone · May 10, 2013

RickyZ said:

ricky...Jesus spoke in parables to those who would not understand. He spoke in parables to them so they would not.
what was it they did not understand?

that His kingdom was not of this world, not a political kingdom.
not a killing ruling smashing kingdom.

His kingdom is eternal and it is HERE in this field that slaves of the prince of the power of the air are set free and transferred to the eternal kingdom, the heavenly Zion.

THE END OF THE AGE (or your personal death) is when all the bad stuff is gone.

not before.

Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds
24He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weedsc among the wheat and went away. 26So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27And the servantsd of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

He explained that parable to His disciples.

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. 41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

both grow together until the end.
it's really clear.

A dangerous theology?

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