a great multitude came out of great tribulation.
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E
well, was john not amongst the 24 elders? he was still in the flesh,when he saw the vision. he was still alive.
What we do know, and the important part is, they were resurrected people, who were already given their reward (crowns)
Well thats interesting. We have at least 24 resurrected souls watching Christ open the first seal, (we know this because They worshiped God and said Christ redeemed them with his blood.) before the first trump is sounded. Where did they come from?
well yes we are still studying this puzzle: dont forget that it was a vision that john saw. it is like you seeing your self in a dream, doing what your doing. remember john was in the spirit when he saw the vision. thank you.
''wakeup''.
This one has me stumped. It only says that the 24 elders are before the throne. (/quote]
I believe he saw a literal 24. But I think it is symbolic. 12 from each tribe, and 12 apostles. I think They represents OT Israel and the Church
Can I ask where you get this. I have never heard this before. I am curious
try rev.7:9--15. and read it for your self.
Still not sure what you mean
I believe he saw a literal 24. But I think it is symbolic. 12 from each tribe, and 12 apostles. I think They represents OT Israel and the Church
Can I ask where you get this. I have never heard this before. I am curious
try rev.7:9--15. and read it for your self.
Still not sure what you mean
And?? A vision of things to come. John was taken to the future and saw future events as they would happen. That is what prophesy is.
so; what you see has not happen,so the 24 elders sitting in front of the throne,is future.but there is still the question; when was the book actually opened? because things are already happening. it is still a puzzle to me.
E
try rev.7:9--15. and read it for your self.
So your saying only those of the tribe of Israel will be sealed and resurrected then? There will be no gentiles (non jews) who belief in Christ during tribulation?
I find this hard to believe
revelation chap1:10 tells you that john was in the spirit on the lords day(his coming)
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.
John saw things, which God showed him, Future events. which WILL COME TO PASS as the first part of revelations states.
Of course John was in spirit. He was still alive, God did not take his body to the future, he took his spirit.
He still saw literal things which God said WOULD COME TO PASS.
This means what John saw will LITERALLY HAPPEN.
E
so; what you see has not happen,so the 24 elders sitting in front of the throne,is future.but there is still the question; when was the book actually opened? because things are already happening. it is still a puzzle to me.
Yes they are future. This was not my point. My point was this future event happened before the first seal was opened by the lamb, And LONG before the 7th trump. Which are also future.
could it be that after john died, he and the others was taken up first, to witness the opening of the little book? and later the resurection of the first fruits,just before the tribulation: and than the rest that have come out of great tribulation.
something to ponder on. so here we can see how the resurection works. not all will be resurected at once. every class has its time.
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So your saying only those of the tribe of Israel will be sealed and resurrected then? There will be no gentiles (non jews) who belief in Christ during tribulation?
I find this hard to believe
So your saying only those of the tribe of Israel will be sealed and resurrected then? There will be no gentiles (non jews) who belief in Christ during tribulation?
I find this hard to believe
Rev 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.
John saw things, which God showed him, Future events. which WILL COME TO PASS as the first part of revelations states.
Of course John was in spirit. He was still alive, God did not take his body to the future, he took his spirit.
He still saw literal things which God said WOULD COME TO PASS.
This means what John saw will LITERALLY HAPPEN.
He still saw literal things which God said WOULD COME TO PASS.
This means what John saw will LITERALLY HAPPEN.
[/QUOTE]John would of died between the vision and the opening of the seals and the 24 would of been resurrected and saw the opening of the seals as witnessess. They are a type of the first fruits.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Now this is not the 144,000 (the firstfruits) These 24 are resurrected before the firstfruits will be resurrected. Again note Kind of firstfruits. Not THE firstfruits but A kind of....
E
These 12 tribes are all Israelites in spirit. Whether Jews or Gentiles. They are the true worshipers that worship God in spirit and in truth. These are the ones that follow the lamb wheresoever he goes.
John would of died between the vision and the opening of the seals and the 24 would of been resurrected and saw the opening of the seals as witnessess. They are a type of the first fruits.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Now this is not the 144,000 (the firstfruits) These 24 are resurrected before the firstfruits will be resurrected. Again note Kind of firstfruits. Not THE firstfruits but A kind of....
Now this is not the 144,000 (the firstfruits) These 24 are resurrected before the firstfruits will be resurrected. Again note Kind of firstfruits. Not THE firstfruits but A kind of....
They are a kind of firstfruit because they were the FIRST to be given the word to share with mankind. Has nothing to do with resurrection of anyone.
the 144000 are literal jews who have been restored to her land, and are the first to repent and acknowledge Christ as their messiah. Just as prophesied in the OT
So we do not take God literally when he send us prophesy? Wow.
Did you read what James said. HE BEGAT US WITH THE WORD OF TRUTH.
They are a kind of firstfruit because they were the FIRST to be given the word to share with mankind. Has nothing to do with resurrection of anyone.
the 144000 are literal jews who have been restored to her land, and are the first to repent and acknowledge Christ as their messiah. Just as prophesied in the OT
Did you read what James said. HE BEGAT US WITH THE WORD OF TRUTH.
They are a kind of firstfruit because they were the FIRST to be given the word to share with mankind. Has nothing to do with resurrection of anyone.
the 144000 are literal jews who have been restored to her land, and are the first to repent and acknowledge Christ as their messiah. Just as prophesied in the OT
romans9:6. not as though the word of God hath taken non effect: for they are not all israel, which are of israel.
E
rom 9
Romans 9 is a rebuke to jews who believe that just because of jews they will get to heaven. Has nothing to do about the 144000, who we are told ARE ISREAL
If they were ressurected and judged, then it is logical to believe all were ressurected and judged, they just got a front row seat because of who they were.
you said it has nothing to do with the resurection: but we saw the picture in heaven? there were 24 elders in heaven, they must be the very first? or what?
rom 9
yes the 24 elders are the very first resurected,to witness the opening of the six seals.
''wakeup''.
Romans 9 is a rebuke to jews who believe that just because of jews they will get to heaven. Has nothing to do about the 144000, who we are told ARE ISREAL
what paul is saying in romans 9:6 is that not necessary to be an israelite to be israel.
a gentile in christ is an israelite spiritually. (spiritual israelites.) so the 144000 are not necessary jews; can be gentiles also. the ones that follow the lamb where soever he goes.rev.14:4.
If they were ressurected and judged, then it is logical to believe all were ressurected and judged, they just got a front row seat because of who they were.
what paul is saying in romans 9:6 is that not necessary to be an israelite to be israel.
a gentile in christ is an israelite spiritually. (spiritual israelites.) so the 144000 are not necessary jews; can be gentiles also. the ones that follow the lamb where soever he goes.rev.14:4.
If they were ressurected and judged, then it is logical to believe all were ressurected and judged, they just got a front row seat because of who they were.
yes the 24 elders are the very first resurected,to witness the opening of the six seals.
''wakeup''.
To use romans 9 to show the 144000 may not be jews does not work.
In romans, Paul is talking to jews,
In revelation. Paul is talking to the world. So he would have no need to show they were of jewish decent if they were not jews.
Nice try though.
In romans, Paul is talking to jews,
In revelation. Paul is talking to the world. So he would have no need to show they were of jewish decent if they were not jews.
Nice try though.
[/QUOTE]The 24 elders were around the throne when the seals were opened. The rest of the saints were not there. They come later. It says that the 144,000 are the firstfruits that they followed the lamb whereever he went. They will be the first of the resurected, but the 24 are already there, so are a kind of firstfruits.
We are all spiritual Israelites. We are now adopted into the family. So if we are spiritual Israelites, and adopted, then wouldn't you say we are from one of the tribes?
E
We are all spiritual Israelites. We are now adopted into the family. So if we are spiritual Israelites, and adopted, then wouldn't you say we are from one of the tribes?