A woman as a Pastor? Does it make it right if there is a need for pastors?

[Angela53510]

I do not agree with the conclusions you make about this Angela, since they are not in line with the tradition that Paul upheld. It is wrong to assume that anyone is "reducing" the role of women by insisting that this tradition is to be kept, the discussion is not about that at all. Nobody here have yet to deny that women can not do this or that in the Kingdom of God. That's not what is discussed actually. It's about the order set forth even in the OT, being continued by Paul, and not intended to be changed. However you do argue seriously for your case, which is good, we are just not in agreement on this one.

So you are arguing that Paul "upheld the traditions of men??"

Both Paul and Jesus warned against this!! In fact, Jesus goes so far as to say that the Pharisees were invalidating or voiding the word of God with their "traditions of men".

"Thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.” Mark 7:13

Paul said those who follow the "traditions of men" were not following after Christ. (Although here, the ESV has a much better translation of the phrase, την παραδοσιν των ανθρωπων, (tain paradosin tone anthropone) "the traditions of humans" or "human tradition.")

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." Col. 2:8 KJV

"See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ." Col. 2:8 ESV

I guess to me, this really is the crux of the argument.

Are we upholding the human tradition, or Biblical truth??

I have studied this for years, in the original languages, and I have read probably 50 books on the topic, both for and against women in ministry. The Biblical conclusion, based on the text, (not bad translations!) is that women are not only called, but ordained and used by God as pastors, chaplains, evangelists, preachers, teachers, servants, helpers, and anything else that God calls them to be.

 

[tribesman]

So you are arguing that Paul "upheld the traditions of men??"

Both Paul and Jesus warned against this!! In fact, Jesus goes so far as to say that the Pharisees were invalidating or voiding the word of God with their "traditions of men".

"Thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.” Mark 7:13

Paul said those who follow the "traditions of men" were not following after Christ. (Although here, the ESV has a much better translation of the phrase, την παραδοσιν των ανθρωπων, (tain paradosin tone anthropone) "the traditions of humans" or "human tradition.")

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." Col. 2:8 KJV

"See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ." Col. 2:8 ESV

I guess to me, this really is the crux of the argument.

Are we upholding the human tradition, or Biblical truth??

I have studied this for years, in the original languages, and I have read probably 50 books on the topic, both for and against women in ministry. The Biblical conclusion, based on the text, (not bad translations!) is that women are not only called, but ordained and used by God as pastors, chaplains, evangelists, preachers, teachers, servants, helpers, and anything else that God calls them to be.

No. As I said earlier, he held to the tradition of the OT Saints, based on nothing but the word of God, "as also saith the law". The principle, as applied for example with the levites, still continued in NT times. Sad to see if you are going the road of falsely accusing. I have also studied this for years, reading the original texts and reading this and that number of books. Maybe we should not make this a matter of how much we have read this or that? In the end it is a matter of how you understand your Bible reading and how you make same harmonize. I for one do not see Paul going against any principles of the OT in any wise.

 

[tribesman]

Addendum: Not all traditions are from men.

[h=3]2Thes.2[/h][15] Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

[h=3]2Thes.3[/h][6] Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

 

[gerjozen]

If women should decide they not to attend Church anymore, because they are being treated as useless in Church, I wonder if we will still have Church on Sundays.
I started to believe that there was gonna be more women going to heaven than men.
Women are more acceptable to the Word than men, and I think God don't have difficulty in transforming a woman than a man.
When you hear some women speak, it's more sensible, more edifying than that of a man.
I wonder why is that .
I'm just being honest here, and by all these I don't mean that women should overthrow the order of God now.
Don't we as men have something to seriously think about why women excel us?

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

It goes deeper than this friend. For example, does God reward the woman who spends her lifetime enduring the hell inflicted by an alcoholic and abusive husband ... because she is instructed to "submit" to him in God's Word ? When the apostle Paul spoke of a deacon being the "husband of only one wife", does this disqualify all unmarried men from holding this office ? Did the act of abolishing slavery contravene the words of Jesus ... because "slaves are to obey their masters" ? Or were Paul's writings of that time written to a specific audience and for a specific purpose ? This is my endeavour in regards to this topic. And to read the Word of God without understanding it's context can be and is equally as dangerous, if not more than to blindly trod along in ignorance for fear that we might offend God by seeking answers to whatever question(s) we might have. He knows the intent and understands the hearts of those asking the questions.

Well, keep this in mind. In the end times, you will be arrested, and hurt in order to make you denounce Christ and then killed. And God is going to let it happen to you. He will not stop your tormentors from doing this. God tells us Himself He puts you through suffering to help you become strong, so that your faith wont break, but so many Christians today have become convinced that God would never allow that. I hope your faith is truly strong enough that you will hold your faith even in the face of torture and death, and not cry to God "why didnt you stop this?".

Why do people now believe that God putting us through hardships is cruel? Why do they doubt His words about endure it with faith. They deny everything He puts us through in this life, and call the idea that He wants you to endure "dangerous" and "backwards". If you don not believe God will put you through suffering, you do not know God.


Im not saying He cant help you through it, but to claim that God would not tell you to endure, that is not God..

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

Do you believe in tithing?

Haha, I have no idea You mean giving your church ten percent of your earnings? It seems like the right thing to do yeah, but my knowledge of anything that refers to that is "Give your church ten percent of your earnings". But the churches I went to had their own ways of making money and never collected during congregation. But yeah you should provide your church with a living

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

If women should decide they not to attend Church anymore, because they are being treated as useless in Church, I wonder if we will still have Church on Sundays.
I started to believe that there was gonna be more women going to heaven than men.
Women are more acceptable to the Word than men, and I think God don't have difficulty in transforming a woman than a man.
When you hear some women speak, it's more sensible, more edifying than that of a man.
I wonder why is that .
I'm just being honest here, and by all these I don't mean that women should overthrow the order of God now.
Don't we as men have something to seriously think about why women excel us?

From my experience, I have seen just as many women use the bible wrongly as I have men. They often do things like "Christ did away with the laws" and "no one goes to hell" just like men do. I havent seen any difference with that in my own personal life.

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

Well, keep this in mind. In the end times, you will be arrested, and hurt in order to make you denounce Christ and then killed. And God is going to let it happen to you. He will not stop your tormentors from doing this. God tells us Himself He puts you through suffering to help you become strong, so that your faith wont break, but so many Christians today have become convinced that God would never allow that. I hope your faith is truly strong enough that you will hold your faith even in the face of torture and death, and not cry to God "why didnt you stop this?".

Why do people now believe that God putting us through hardships is cruel? Why do they doubt His words about endure it with faith. They deny everything He puts us through in this life, and call the idea that He wants you to endure "dangerous" and "backwards". If you don not believe God will put you through suffering, you do not know God.


Im not saying He cant help you through it, but to claim that God would not tell you to endure, that is not God..

Oh, and I also wanna point out that an abusive husband does not equal God didnt want women to be the teachers of the bible in anyway. Its not really relevant. But yeah, when the slave girl ran away from Abraham and his wife who was being cruel to her, keep in mind God actually told her to go back to them. So yes, God tells us to submit. He tells us not to seek vengeance. He tells us when a man strikes you, give him the other cheek. He tells you He wants you to endure in His name. Saying He would not do that is lying to people about who God is, and leading them to very real spiritual danger, that God wont allow them to suffer but will save them from it, when He tells you that will not happen.

 

[kaylagrl]

Some people are compelled to fight it because it is in their nature to oppose
God rather than submit to His wishes. They honestly can't help it any more
than a gay person can help being gay. (Rom 8:5-8)

=======================================

You know I've had both a brother and sister on here write me and give me good advice on responding to this thread,and I agreed. There is no sense arguing with people with a certain disposition. But I must say I've seen some pretty outragious things said in this thread. Now comparing female pastors to gay people being gay. The Bible calls homosexuality a perversion.Now we're comparing female pastors to gays.smh Its too bad when on any subject a person cant see past their own nose.I would just say to women,if God has a call on your life,follow it!! Dont let Pharisee people pull you down.God has used women pastors to bring many to the Lord and do Gods work whatever people on here may say.Missionaries,pastors,deaconess all have been used by God.Remember that.Paul was no sexist.He was talking to a specific church at a specific time.In context it makes sense.So Christian women,march on! You have Catherine Booth, Ann Judson,Aimee Semple Mc Pherson among others. Do what the Lord has put on your heart. If God can use a donkey,surely he can use a woman! Blessing on you all ladies.Fight the good fight and keep the faith.

 

[tribesman]

...But I must say I've seen some pretty outragious things said in this thread....Paul was no sexist.He was talking to a specific church at a specific time.In context it makes sense.So Christian women,march on! ...Blessing on you all ladies.Fight the good fight and keep the faith.

A very anachronistic take. Ya, I second that on seeing outrageous things.

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

You know I've had both a brother and sister on here write me and give me good advice on responding to this thread,and I agreed. There is no sense arguing with people with a certain disposition. But I must say I've seen some pretty outragious things said in this thread. Now comparing female pastors to gay people being gay. The Bible calls homosexuality a perversion.Now we're comparing female pastors to gays.smh Its too bad when on any subject a person cant see past their own nose.I would just say to women,if God has a call on your life,follow it!! Dont let Pharisee people pull you down.God has used women pastors to bring many to the Lord and do Gods work whatever people on here may say.Missionaries,pastors,deaconess all have been used by God.Remember that.Paul was no sexist.He was talking to a specific church at a specific time.In context it makes sense.So Christian women,march on! You have Catherine Booth, Ann Judson,Aimee Semple Mc Pherson among others. Do what the Lord has put on your heart. If God can use a donkey,surely he can use a woman! Blessing on you all ladies.Fight the good fight and keep the faith.

I know that many people will not believe this, but years ago, when I was considering letting myself live as transgender, I had a very real nice voice say to me "you know who you really are". I let myself believe this was an angel who came to let me know God was allowing me to do whatever I wanted. Of course I was shown through great suffering that this was not the way. We are warned that there is evil in the spiritual realms who pretend to be angels of light working to mis lead you.


Oh but anywho, Im still only pro lets do what God says and not worry about equality, because none of us are even equal to begin with, even in our own secular human- only world, there is no equality. I believe its just best to let go of such things, and believe that God knows whats best, and does whats in our best interests.
I do not care about our genders, but being male there was certain things I once wanted that I had to learn was not Gods will for me and move on from. I do believe its better to let go and just focus on loving God and following Him. I have no desire to lead or teach or do any of these things, but if God decided to put me in that position I would try it anyways:3

God tells us that we cause Him indignation when we talk like His will is too much for us to follow.
(keep in mind I do not follow His will perfectly either, and am still struggling to become stronger to it)

 

[gerjozen]

"How is it then, brethren"? (1Cor.14:26)
"When you come together, everyone....."
Gk. everyone - hek'-as-tos meaning:- any, both, (men & Women)

So both men & women attended Church, and that for a reason too.
"...everyone hath a psalm, a doctrine, a tongue, a revelation, an interpretation"

"every woman [gune-goo-nay'], (an adult woman, wife in contrast with a young girl) that prayeth or prophesieth..."
How come it has been said that they should keep quiet for it is not permitted unto them to speak in Church (1Cor.14:34), but here they prayed & prophesied and are included in those having a psalm, a doctrine, a tongue, a revelation etc.
The speaking here has got nothing to do with the exercising of her gift.
It has to do with the asking of questions. That she must do at home (1Cor.14:35) not in public worship, as people were at liberty in those days to interrupt the speaker in asking questions. [Wish we can interrupt our speakers in our day, but we'll probably get kicked out of Church ]

In 1Cor.14:3, it says, "but he that prophesieth, speaketh - laleo, meaning:- to preach, say, speak, talk, tell, utter,
not to herself or just her husband, but to "men"-anthropos [anth'ro-pos] meaning:- a human being (male or female)
here referring to the Church.

Just because a woman is at liberty to speak whether by interpretation, doctrine or whatever doesn't give her the right now to usurp authority in Church now. That's going against God's order.
We read that the Evangelist Philip had four daughters.
Wonder where they prophesied.
One can have the gift of prophecy, teaching etc. but that doesn't mean that you are in a leadership position now, and that's where we seems to go astray.

 

[Utah]

(keep in mind I do not follow His will perfectly either, and am still struggling to become stronger to it)

There are blessings in the effort. Keep the Greatest Commandments and you will see that following His will, though never perfectly, will be a joyful, lifetime experience. And always remember, His grace is sufficient.

 

[JackH]

The Biblical conclusion, based on the text, (not bad translations!) is that women are not only called, but ordained and used by God as pastors, chaplains, evangelists, preachers, teachers, servants, helpers, and anything else that God calls them to be.

Exactly.

A woman can do anything a man can do.

Well, except for playing nose tackle for Satan's team, the Patriots.

 

[JackH]

In 1Cor.14:3, it says, "but he that prophesieth, speaketh - laleo, meaning:- to preach, say, speak, talk, tell, utter,
not to herself or just her husband, but to "men"-anthropos [anth'ro-pos] meaning:- a human being (male or female)
here referring to the Church.

Just because a woman is at liberty to speak whether by interpretation, doctrine or whatever doesn't give her the right now to usurp authority in Church now. That's going against God's order.

One can have the gift of prophecy, teaching etc. but that doesn't mean that you are in a leadership position now, and that's where we seems to go astray.

Your issue appears to be that women can prophesy (teach, etc.) but not be the pastor.

God is not the author of confusion. Those who would have us discriminate against women with respect to their legitimate role in the church are confused, very confused.

Some say a woman can prophecy but not teach. Some say a woman can preach and teach but not pastor. Some say a woman can prophecy but not preach. Some are obsessed with the word ordained and give that word more significance than being called by God.

So some of would apparently say a woman can preach/teach a sermon on divorce in church, citing the appropriate verses.

Is that right?

But the same woman could not then offer spiritual guidance to a divorced member of the church contemplating remarriage since that would be the role of a pastor?

I like to KISS (women only). Keep It Simple Stupid.

It is simple. A woman can do anything a man can do, with respect to the issues of which we speak. Nobody has presented anything close to a credible argument that leads me to believe otherwise.

The arguments that have been presented remind me of those used to deny women the right to vote and blacks, not only the right to vote, but many other rights.

 

[JackH]

No. The problem for you is that these scriptures do not say that Phoebe was ordained. I would have you read this article in full, who explains very well the biblical principles of calling and ordination.

Deborah & Barak: Example for Women or Embarrassment for Men

You posted that link before a couple days ago (Post #332).

To which I replied: "That article is just what one might expect from a minister with a Calvinist theology affiliated with a denomination that does not ordain women. There are actually statements in that article that made me laugh."

So then you post the link again 9 hours ago and then complain about someone posting a link you say is biased.

Hello.

 

[gerjozen]

Why are people confusing preaching with that of being a Pastor. Just because one can preach a sermon, does that make him/her a Pastor now? And why does it appear like its only Pastors that can do the preaching?

 

[gerjozen]

Brother JackH can you please give me the Scriptures where the women was ordained into leadership roles, please, thanks

 

[KJV1611]

Key
English
Greek

"Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons" Phil. 1:1
"Παῦλος καὶ Τιμόθεος δοῦλοι Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ πᾶσιν τοῖς ἁγίοις ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Φιλίπποις σὺν ἐπισκόποις καὶ διακόνοις·" Phil 1:1

"Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued,[SUP][a][/SUP] not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain." 1 Tim. 3:8
"Διακόνους ὡσαύτως σεμνούς, μὴ διλόγους, μὴ οἴνῳ πολλῷ προσέχοντας, μὴ αἰσχροκερδεῖς," 1 Tim. 3:8

"I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:" Romans 16:1 KJV
"Συνίστημι δὲ ὑμῖν Φοίβην τὴν ἀδελφὴν ἡμῶν, οὖσαν καὶ διάκονον τῆς ἐκκλησίας τῆς ἐν Κεγχρεαῖς," Romans 16:1

A simple look at the above three passages in English and Greek is very revealing.

διάκονος - [TABLE="width: 1"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8E6B8, align: right"]

deacons:​

[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8E6B8, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8E6B8, align: right"]

g​

1249[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8E6B8, align: right"]

διάκονος​

diakonos​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Phil 1:1 - διακόνοις = diakonois Dative - Plural
1 Tim. 3:8 Διακόνους = Diakonous Accusative - Plural
Rms 16:1 διάκονον = diakonon - Accusative - Singular.So deacons in all three of these passages is the word diakonos, (Nominative masc singular)

In two cases it is plural and the third case it is singular, because it refers to one person.

If ANY male name had appeared in Romans 16:1 the word would have been translated, properly as "deacon". But KJ translators and many subsequent translators had to translate the word differently than the other occurrences, because it would support a woman being, well,

First off diackonon is not the direct object, Phebe is. Diackonon is the noun in the predicate of the sentence that contains a linking verb, so diakonon is nominative singular.

Secondly the grammatical gender of diackonon is both masculine and feminine at the same time. It takes on the gender of the noun associated with it and in this case it takes the gender of Phebe... female.

Thirdly... what the hay does that have to with anything. What if a male name had been there? So what... the gender of diackonon has nothing to do with the translation of diackonon as servant.

Diaconon is found 30 times in the bible. It's translated minister or servant almost every where, except for 3 times it's translated as deacon. You know why? Because diackonon in general terms means servant and in those cases it's tranlated minister or servant. In the 3 places it's translated as deacon it's talking about the office or position in the church called "Deacon".

You're confusing Deacon (the office) with deacon (the word) i.e. servant or helper. The office of Deacon in the church is held by a deacon (servant or helper). That's why the office is called "Deacon"... because it employees deacons.

I hope this helps.

 

[JackH]

Brother JackH can you please give me the Scriptures where the women was ordained into leadership roles, please, thanks

What is your definition of ordained, exactly?

And by your definition of ordained, what denomination in today's world ordains pastors by the letter of Scripture, by your interpretation?