Abortion

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Mo0448

Senior Member
Jun 10, 2013
1,209
15
38
#1
I might be opening up a can of worms here...hang on while I get in my bomb shelter. Okay! I am just curious as to what everyone's opinion in regards to Abortion is. I know it can be tough topic to discuss especially if some have experienced rape or abuse that lead to a pregnancy. I also know that from my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong please) there is no clear biblical scripture that says "abortion is wrong". I do know however that there are scriptures that can be conveyed to that extent, every life is precious etc. As a pro-lifer, I would like to have amicable dialogue and discussion in hopes of broadening my own perspective and being more understanding of the other side of the coin.

While this topic covers many sub-topics. When does life actually begin? Or as I mentioned earlier what of rape incest etc? My opinion is that in the present age society has created a "quick fix" to one's "mistake", not necessarily that having a child is a mistake but their lapse of judgment on the occasion and is therefore taking away accountability for one's actions. As scripture says in Luke 14:

28“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn't able to finish.’


I try to be as understanding as I can be although it is really tough to do! However I cannot hold someone to my morals and standards if they believe something different than I do. I can't expect someone to make a decision like I would if their thought process or driving force is different.

Any thoughts or ideas or anything?

God Bless!
 
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T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
3,356
122
63
29
#2
Popcorn anyone?

Popcorn-Bucket-Chicken-Box.jpg


But in all seriousness I think this subject will never be resolved. The people who believe abortion is correct stand on the 'what if' fence and the people who think it isn't correct stand on the (IMO) positive side. (Like stated in starfields post below me.)
 
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starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#3
I understand that this is a sensitive issue and it is not my intention to offend anyone. I believe life begins at conception and abortion is shedding of innocent blood. As for cases of unintended pregnancy from rape, incest, abuse, etc., there is always option for adoption. You don't know what value that human being will bring into the society and God's great plan for them so why terminate life when it's not His time to end that unborn baby's life?
 

Mo0448

Senior Member
Jun 10, 2013
1,209
15
38
#5
but isnt the what if also an IMO reality. I mean if you are to really look at life most things are in an IMO basis no?
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
3,356
122
63
29
#6
but isnt the what if also an IMO reality. I mean if you are to really look at life most things are in an IMO basis no?
The what if was about, WHAT IF she was raped. WHAT IF the women is too young. WHAT IF she can't afford a baby. WHAT IF the child is this way or that...

That is the what if side that I am talking about...
 
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Mo0448

Senior Member
Jun 10, 2013
1,209
15
38
#7
oh my apologies...I think the what if she can't afford it would go back to what if you don't make a conscious decision knowing you "can't" afford it. I understand the what if rape, however I can also see that aborting that baby will not make the pain of the emotionally devastating event go away. Instead what if these individuals were given the support to carry on full term and then if they chose not to keep the baby, to give it to adoption. Like I mentioned before I believe society has made it a quick fix instead of holding one accountable and being responsible again just my opinion.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#8
Ok, I ain't afraid...

Here is my thought...

Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

In the past there were certain practices God HATED...

Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Today we are more sophisticated about it, we claim it is the women's right to choose. In actuality it is putting our own desires above the sanctity of life. It is the sacrificing of a child for our own selfish desires.
 
N

nathan3

Guest
#9
Well the statics are out there for anyone to take the time, and read. The amount of this done, is in the many many millions at this point in time.

Just about all, abortions done today are done out of convenience . And little to non due to rape as some advocates of it try to say. All done because its easy to kill , rather then be an mature person and take care of who you helped to bring into the world .

Now if you have went through a abortion for one reason or another. I know that can be hard on people when they fully grasp the gravity of what has been done. So I don't mean to upset people. But I wanted to share some thoughts with the Thread started.


Women make mistakes due to the fact its "lawful" according to mans laws.
So people might ignorantly , think its okay to do. because its not illegal . That being one reason.


But the commandment is clear. Do no premeditated taking of life. So it is wrong. Everything from sleeping around to the choice to kill is all premeditated when it comes to abortion.


Killing of kids was done by Herod and a lot of people and God is against it. People would site other places where it might not seem the case, but without understanding the events surrounding God's choices. It becomes a mute point .

A attempt to kill Christ :
Matthew 2:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying,

18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.


Even in the old testament people would worship idols . One belief at a time, was to sacrifice children in fire to Baal . Of Which God said He is against :

Jeremiah 19:5

King James Version (KJV)

5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:



Jeremiah 7:31

King James Version (KJV)

31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.



Jeremiah 32:35

King James Version (KJV)

35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Exodus 1:22

King James Version (KJV)

22 And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.


In the case of modern abortion., its barbaric to say the least.


And for some one that think :"well, the the kid is not developed yet, so it really wasn't a person ".. I would ask what does that mean ? .


The following verses read that ; Mary a short time after she met with the angel Gabriel , went to her Cousin Elizabeth; who already was with John the baptist six months in her womb .

When Mary greeted her cousin. Just the baptist leaped for Joy, it says, in the womb of his mother Elizabeth, because, John could feel the presence of Christ, whom Mary had already received in her womb.

What does this show ? It shows that A person is very much there in the womb at six months. It also shows that life begins at conception also, seeing Mary just received Christ , yet John a six month old even knew that; when he leaped for Joy.


Luke 1:

24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,

25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men.

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
 
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Mo0448

Senior Member
Jun 10, 2013
1,209
15
38
#10
Ok, I ain't afraid...

Here is my thought...

Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

In the past there were certain practices God HATED...

Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Today we are more sophisticated about it, we claim it is the women's right to choose. In actuality it is putting our own desires above the sanctity of life. It is the sacrificing of a child for our own selfish desires.
While I agree with you John I would like to play devil's advocate and suggest that since many tend to pick and highlight some old testament laws and overlook others. I
am only suggesting it since while I have also used similar scriptures to support a pro-life stance, I have come to notice that there are many other laws in the old testament that we stress while others overlooked i.e the ones for pro-life being stressed and the one that says "And if a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his wife."

Now I am making these claims to perhaps help further the discussion along as I said I am pro-life and was curious as to people's stances and where biblically do they draw to support their claim.
 
N

nathan3

Guest
#11
And make no mistake, this is not just a problem with women. But with the men that stand with them on abortion line escorting them through the clinics doors. They don't have enough sense or maturity to stop the deed. But you'll find men encouraging women to abort, so they can get out of child support or whatever the case may be. So men are just as responsible for the consequences.
 
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allaboutlove

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
480
4
18
#12
I think it wrongs no matter what but i dont really think youll open up a can of worms on here because most people will probaly think similar.
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#13
I have heard of several occasions where women got abortions and afterwards went into severe depression, cause they realized their baby was dead. I would never recommend it because of biblical reasons as well as psychological ones. There's so much wrong involved that I cannot see how someone could steer it to look right.
 
May 15, 2013
4,307
27
0
#14
I might be opening up a can of worms here...hang on while I get in my bomb shelter. Okay! I am just curious as to what everyone's opinion in regards to Abortion is. I know it can be tough topic to discuss especially if some have experienced rape or abuse that lead to a pregnancy. I also know that from my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong please) there is no clear biblical scripture that says "abortion is wrong". I do know however that there are scriptures that can be conveyed to that extent, every life is precious etc. As a pro-lifer, I would like to have amicable dialogue and discussion in hopes of broadening my own perspective and being more understanding of the other side of the coin.

While this topic covers many sub-topics. When does life actually begin? Or as I mentioned earlier what of rape incest etc? My opinion is that in the present age society has created a "quick fix" to one's "mistake", not necessarily that having a child is a mistake but their lapse of judgment on the occasion and is therefore taking away accountability for one's actions. As scripture says in Luke 14:

28“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn't able to finish.’


I try to be as understanding as I can be although it is really tough to do! However I cannot hold someone to my morals and standards if they believe something different than I do. I can't expect someone to make a decision like I would if their thought process or driving force is different.

Any thoughts or ideas or anything?

God Bless!
Hosea 4:6my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. “Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.

Proverbs 11:14
For lack of guidance a nation falls, but victory is won through many advisers.

Psalm 34:9
Fear the Lord, you his holy people, for those who fear him lack nothing.

1 Thessalonians 3:10
Night and day we pray most earnestly that we may see you again and supply what is lacking in your faith.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#15


While I agree with you John I would like to play devil's advocate and suggest that since many tend to pick and highlight some old testament laws and overlook others. I
am only suggesting it since while I have also used similar scriptures to support a pro-life stance, I have come to notice that there are many other laws in the old testament that we stress while others overlooked i.e the ones for pro-life being stressed and the one that says "And if a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his wife."

Now I am making these claims to perhaps help further the discussion along as I said I am pro-life and was curious as to people's stances and where biblically do they draw to support their claim.
Oh, I think there are some of us who did follow that law.

I am a hunter and when I take game I even go so far as to do this...

Lev 17:13 And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust.

I am not sure that I ddeply understand why but God says to do it. Sometimes that is good enough for me.
 
Jul 4, 2011
84
1
8
#16
The thing about it is, no matter what, people will always use anything they can to justify their actions, or what they want to do, esp. if deep down they know it might not be right. I used to be a pro-choicer, that is until Jesus moved into my heart.

The example of conception from a horrendous act such as rape was one example that lead me to feel that a girl should have the right to choose. I would think and say "How could you make a girl carry a baby that would remind her of the brutal assault?" And then I would be that person that would throw in the What If's. Deep down, I knew God existed, and I knew killing another life was wrong,..but I got into the devils What If trap. Someone might justify the abortion by thinking "God wouldn't want this girl to suffer from this pregnancy so abortion would be ok." Not to derail, but I see this with some of my friends that think: Well, God loves everyone and He made me this way (homosexual) so it's ok. You see, back to the justification by twisting the Truth (and I used to be just like that too until Jesus showed me the Truth).

I've even thought about a woman's life being at risk by carrying the child. Interestingly, there was a woman in that situation and her doctor performed an abortion, only to find out the baby survived and the mother delivered a healthy baby and she was fine (and very thankful to have her baby too). God can work miracles :). Personally, my mothers doctor told her I was not growing, did not have a heart beat, and wanted to schedule a D and C right away. Thankfully, another doctor worked her in immediately for a second opinion, and obviously found that I was still alive. She was horrified that she almost went through with the D/C on the recommendation of her doctor. Again, God works some miracles.

And no matter what the circumstances were for the conception of the child, I believe that God has a plan and can turn that "bad situation" into good. He does not make mistakes. Personally, I feel its very simple. Abortion is ending a life. It's an active effort to end a life. If I kill a guy breaking into my house, I am ending another human life (albeit different but still ending a life just the same). No matter if someone feels justified to do what they do, it's still ending a life,..something God created. So, we always have some consequence to our actions no matter what and God to answer too in the end.

Oh and what about fertilized eggs being frozen and then destroyed if the couple does not need them:0. Someone asked me that the other day. Do you feel that falls in this category as well?
 

Mo0448

Senior Member
Jun 10, 2013
1,209
15
38
#17
The thing about it is, no matter what, people will always use anything they can to justify their actions, or what they want to do, esp. if deep down they know it might not be right. I used to be a pro-choicer, that is until Jesus moved into my heart.

The example of conception from a horrendous act such as rape was one example that lead me to feel that a girl should have the right to choose. I would think and say "How could you make a girl carry a baby that would remind her of the brutal assault?" And then I would be that person that would throw in the What If's. Deep down, I knew God existed, and I knew killing another life was wrong,..but I got into the devils What If trap. Someone might justify the abortion by thinking "God wouldn't want this girl to suffer from this pregnancy so abortion would be ok." Not to derail, but I see this with some of my friends that think: Well, God loves everyone and He made me this way (homosexual) so it's ok. You see, back to the justification by twisting the Truth (and I used to be just like that too until Jesus showed me the Truth).

I've even thought about a woman's life being at risk by carrying the child. Interestingly, there was a woman in that situation and her doctor performed an abortion, only to find out the baby survived and the mother delivered a healthy baby and she was fine (and very thankful to have her baby too). God can work miracles :). Personally, my mothers doctor told her I was not growing, did not have a heart beat, and wanted to schedule a D and C right away. Thankfully, another doctor worked her in immediately for a second opinion, and obviously found that I was still alive. She was horrified that she almost went through with the D/C on the recommendation of her doctor. Again, God works some miracles.

And no matter what the circumstances were for the conception of the child, I believe that God has a plan and can turn that "bad situation" into good. He does not make mistakes. Personally, I feel its very simple. Abortion is ending a life. It's an active effort to end a life. If I kill a guy breaking into my house, I am ending another human life (albeit different but still ending a life just the same). No matter if someone feels justified to do what they do, it's still ending a life,..something God created. So, we always have some consequence to our actions no matter what and God to answer too in the end.

Oh and what about fertilized eggs being frozen and then destroyed if the couple does not need them:0. Someone asked me that the other day. Do you feel that falls in this category as well?
Thanks for the response Biskers! I agree with absolutely everything you said. The frozen fertilized eggs is tough I really don't know. Yes, they are fertilized however from my understanding they still need a jolt a minor current (please correct me if I'm wrong) in order to resume multiplying. So does that make it alive only when it begins multiplying again? What is the definition of alive? I know a virus is considered non-living because according to Science it does not carry all the tenants of a living thing as we know it. Didn't mean to derail there :p
 
Jun 14, 2013
55
0
0
#18
2270"Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person -- among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life."
-Catechism of the Catholic Church

A simple straight-forward answer. The Catholic church is against abortion. Meaning all Catholics should be against abortion at the threat of excommunication.

"In case of a direct threat to the life of a mother if her pregnancy continues, especially if she has other children, it is recommended to be lenient in the pastoral practice. The woman who interrupted pregnancy in this situation shall not be excluded from the Eucharistic communion with the Church provided that she has fulfilled the canon of Penance assigned by the priest who takes her confession."
-The Basis of the Social Concept of the Russian Orthodox Church

Taking a step away from the Catholic approach the Russian Orthodox Church (the largest of the Eastern Orthodox Churches) states forgiveness may be given and excommunication averted if certain prerequisites are fulfilled.

Being a lapsed Catholic and not even really Christian at this time, I have to say I am pro-choice. Not in a willy-nilly sense of a girl gets pregnant a few times and aborts them all, but that if a life is threatened or the child would clearly not have a good, supportive life then abortion is acceptable. Personally, being adopted, I prefer adoption over abortion any day. Though we are all conscious, sentient beings who will, ultimately, make our own decisions.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#19
Well there are no accidents with God. Conception is at the mercy of God. Here's where it gets tough. If a woman is raped and conceives it is God who has brought the conception to pass. Rape is a violent crime and clearly a sin. Not a sin on the part of the woman but the man of course. It is often the innocent who pay the highest price for sin. Rape of innocence compounded by conception compounded again by abortion. This is why the righteous man hates sin. This is why the righteous must demand justice for the innocent. God allows this to teach us how horrible sin appears before His holy presence. Abortion for no reason except the convenience of the woman is no less detestable to God. A difficult subject because of the emotion involved.
Man is wicked when he is apart from God. Think of Herod when he slaughtered the innocent in Bethlehem. Think of Pharaoh when he ordered the first born males in Israel to be slain. There comes another who will commit the abomination of desolation.
The causation is always the sinfulness of unregenerate man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,967
8,673
113
#20
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

There's gonna be a LOT of kids in Heaven, and I bet a good portion are going to be the unborn. As to when life begins let me ask this scientific question: How much more complete human DNA does an 80 year old have vs. a newly conceived baby? If your answer is NONE then you know when human life begins.