Against Calvinism: God (Jesus) did not know...
- Thread starter Calmador
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I would take up an argument with your first paragraph. Inasmuch, as God, in His foreknowledge in His Decree, as you put it, or, if this is what Calvinist's "state", then they have missed the proper interpretation (a man's ego, can be such a terrible thing) of what an "elect" is!
Does our Father in Heaven really CONDEMN those who aren't "elect", to HELL?....No, no, no, no, NO! God FORBID!
In God's Foreknowledge, or, decree, that, even though it is God's WILL, that ALL come unto repentance? Some may repent, while others may not? Elect? Do not have this "option"! Meaning? Not that God is saying, "those who aren't Mine Elect, are going to hell!"....God is decreeing, if you will, "Of all the people who are in JEOPARDY, of going to hell?" "Mine Elect are NOT AMONGST these!" Thus implying, "the free will option?", Although appearing to be in play? ULTIMATELY? It isn't! For the "sheeps?" Yes! For elect? NO!
Acts-14: 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
If this be truly what Calvanist's "state, portend, teach, or preach", concerning "UnCONDITIONAL Election?" Then, they needs be corrected in this!
What I think happened, as is "usually" the case when "saved sheep" (illegitimately transform, or are transformed) into "WANNA BE'S", elect! Another term would be Poser's! Irregardless, this "UN Spiritual", and "UnHoly" mixture, of ego, and testosterone, in which a man, or woman, would pay the ultimate price, of their soul, and spirit, so they can be right? Is sad, and heartbreaking, to say the least!
In answering the OP? I think Jesus STILL doesn't KNOW! But, taking the Father's lead, is, in the locker room, "suiting up", so to speak!
Does our Father in Heaven really CONDEMN those who aren't "elect", to HELL?....No, no, no, no, NO! God FORBID!
In God's Foreknowledge, or, decree, that, even though it is God's WILL, that ALL come unto repentance? Some may repent, while others may not? Elect? Do not have this "option"! Meaning? Not that God is saying, "those who aren't Mine Elect, are going to hell!"....God is decreeing, if you will, "Of all the people who are in JEOPARDY, of going to hell?" "Mine Elect are NOT AMONGST these!" Thus implying, "the free will option?", Although appearing to be in play? ULTIMATELY? It isn't! For the "sheeps?" Yes! For elect? NO!
Acts-14: 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
If this be truly what Calvanist's "state, portend, teach, or preach", concerning "UnCONDITIONAL Election?" Then, they needs be corrected in this!
What I think happened, as is "usually" the case when "saved sheep" (illegitimately transform, or are transformed) into "WANNA BE'S", elect! Another term would be Poser's! Irregardless, this "UN Spiritual", and "UnHoly" mixture, of ego, and testosterone, in which a man, or woman, would pay the ultimate price, of their soul, and spirit, so they can be right? Is sad, and heartbreaking, to say the least!
In answering the OP? I think Jesus STILL doesn't KNOW! But, taking the Father's lead, is, in the locker room, "suiting up", so to speak!
Jesus did not know the day or the hour because he was created a little lower then the angels to suffer death on the cross Heb.2:9, just like us we only use 9% of our brain, our life in the first world age is erase while we are in the flesh, which brings us to the subject of election.
Everyone knows that satan rebelled in the first world age and was judged and sentenced to perish Ezekiel 28, that is why he is called the son of perdition, what people don't seem to know is every one was judged at the same time, one third of us fought on the side of God and were found to be righteous when Judged Rom.8:29-30, these are the elect they will not be judged again, Gods gift is without repentance, the law does not apply to them but it apply's for all the rest, God will interfere in there lives to bring about his plan of salvation but will not interfere in the lives of people with freewill, one third of Gods children followed satan in the rebellion Rev.12:3-4 and one third just watched, in this world age whoever is not with God is against him Matt.12:30, that is why we are here, rather then destroy 2/3 of his children God said let us make man [flesh] in our image, born innocent free to choose. God bless
Everyone knows that satan rebelled in the first world age and was judged and sentenced to perish Ezekiel 28, that is why he is called the son of perdition, what people don't seem to know is every one was judged at the same time, one third of us fought on the side of God and were found to be righteous when Judged Rom.8:29-30, these are the elect they will not be judged again, Gods gift is without repentance, the law does not apply to them but it apply's for all the rest, God will interfere in there lives to bring about his plan of salvation but will not interfere in the lives of people with freewill, one third of Gods children followed satan in the rebellion Rev.12:3-4 and one third just watched, in this world age whoever is not with God is against him Matt.12:30, that is why we are here, rather then destroy 2/3 of his children God said let us make man [flesh] in our image, born innocent free to choose. God bless
Wrong again.
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world"
Ef 1:4
You are not lucky today
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world"
Ef 1:4
You are not lucky today
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
The context is all spiritual blessing in the heavenly places. The context is not us. That context is what God the Father has chosen to give those in Christ. These blessings are in accord to what God had chosen before the foundation of the world.
Calvinists read this verse like, "...chosen us to be in him..." They add words to make the context to be us.
Your argument in not with me. It is with Reformed Theology.
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.
IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter III.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
London Baptist Confession of Faith, 1689, Chapter III.
You will note that the LBCF softens the blow a little, leaving men to their own devices.
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.
IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter III.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
London Baptist Confession of Faith, 1689, Chapter III.
You will note that the LBCF softens the blow a little, leaving men to their own devices.
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Yes he executed his plan he had beforehand . It was not a spare of the moment thingamajigy, thats me, and why I am in trouble with my wife.
She has it worked out for me to both will and do her good pleasure.
I would think if it says so a person would not have to believe it before it could come true. The demonstration was thousands of years later.
You Calvinists focus on the words chosen us rather than the words in him meaning in Christ.
The actual choice of God before the foundation of the world was that salvation and the spiritual blessings were to be given through the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus was present at the foundation of the world, but no Calvinist was placed into Christ until the new birth. Somehow a Calvinist fell out of Christ and into Adam at the fall of Adam, but fell out of Adam and back into Christ at salvation. The proper interpretation is cleared up by the simple English of 2 Timothy 1:9-10. Before the foundation of the world God decreed that no one would become holy and without blame until he or she was placed into the Lord Jesus Christ upon believing the gospel.
The actual choice of God before the foundation of the world was that salvation and the spiritual blessings were to be given through the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus was present at the foundation of the world, but no Calvinist was placed into Christ until the new birth. Somehow a Calvinist fell out of Christ and into Adam at the fall of Adam, but fell out of Adam and back into Christ at salvation. The proper interpretation is cleared up by the simple English of 2 Timothy 1:9-10. Before the foundation of the world God decreed that no one would become holy and without blame until he or she was placed into the Lord Jesus Christ upon believing the gospel.
Well obviously you want to avoid the full import of this statement: ...and others foreordained to everlasting death.
That's why the London Baptist Confession modified this to submit the pretense that God simply ignores some people (actually many people) with....others being left to act in their sin.
But there is no avoiding the ugliness of Reformed Theology. Chapter III of the Westminister Confession of Faith makes it crystal clear that God FOREORDAINED -- decreed -- put an immutable ordinance into place -- that some men would go to eternal Hell because that is what He chose, not because of Adam, and not because sinners rejected the Gospel or rejected Christ.
That's why the London Baptist Confession modified this to submit the pretense that God simply ignores some people (actually many people) with....others being left to act in their sin.
But there is no avoiding the ugliness of Reformed Theology. Chapter III of the Westminister Confession of Faith makes it crystal clear that God FOREORDAINED -- decreed -- put an immutable ordinance into place -- that some men would go to eternal Hell because that is what He chose, not because of Adam, and not because sinners rejected the Gospel or rejected Christ.
I would not know how western culture or eastern culture falls into this. I appreciate you thinking about the differences and how the perspectives can have an effect. How was western culture a problem with my post?
Also, I think none of what you said in your post is relevant with my particular point. I wasn't asking for a reason for Jesus not using his power. I was showing everyone that God can be God.... even if he's man handled by the Romans. God can still be God if he chose... which he has... not to use his God-power.
God may have elected us, but he did not cause us to into Salvation. He persuaded us into salvation. That's why there is conversations between God and man in the bible
There's a fundamental point. The point is I can literally man handle God... That's possible. That's scriptural true. This fundamental truth shows that if I can resist God on this level and God allows it. Then like I asked, what else does God NOT use his power for? That question was meant to open people up that God can allow himself to be resisted in regards to salvation.
There's a fundamental point. The point is I can literally man handle God... That's possible. That's scriptural true. This fundamental truth shows that if I can resist God on this level and God allows it. Then like I asked, what else does God NOT use his power for? That question was meant to open people up that God can allow himself to be resisted in regards to salvation.
First of all, you sound arrogant. So, I'd appreciate it if you didn't. Regardless of your intention, your words come off that way.
Maybe you got a point in the over-power thing. If Jesus didn't put up a "fight" with his full God-power, then its not an overpowering... it's him allowing himself for those things to happen.
Either way, Jesus was not using his full power. That point still stands. God does not need to practice his full power, all the time, to be God. A God that does not know the future, at least temporarily,... is still God.
This means that requirement for God to be all powerful, keyword: all the time, is NOT a requirement. This is an important biblical truth. It leaves the door wide open for many other claims. It allows us to ask the questions IF God is not required to read the heart of men... to do miracles... to be everywhere... all the time... These powers of God are all questionable now (Notice I'm not claiming any specific answers). This is good for our study of God.
More to the point...
First of all, I think there's intuitive problems with God determining people to God to heaven and hell. There's moral tensions... and I believe blind faith among Calvinists to ignore that moral intention. That's unGodly... not necessarily faithful. I believe this state is described best in the following:
1 Timothy 4:2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
Our consciousnesses can possibly be seared. I've met Calvinists that struggle with their own conscious... understanding what a worthless and evil God Calvinism seems to make God... struggling with their conscious to accept what they really think is a good interpretation.
We have a God Romans 2:14-15 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, 15 since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them
God gave everyone the law in our hearts and a conscious (perhaps these two are the same). Either way, if there's moral tension, it needs to be resolved, not dismissed naively.
Secondly, God not having to be all powerful all the time... opens the question of God necessarily determining people to heaven and/or hell. I personally believe God does not need humans to be glorified... like Calvinists do. I believe it does not diminish God's glory in any way for humans to do anything. So, I already have an answer. He doesn't need to determine humans because God never needed humans in any way to be God. God was God before humans ever existed.
Maybe you got a point in the over-power thing. If Jesus didn't put up a "fight" with his full God-power, then its not an overpowering... it's him allowing himself for those things to happen.
Either way, Jesus was not using his full power. That point still stands. God does not need to practice his full power, all the time, to be God. A God that does not know the future, at least temporarily,... is still God.
This means that requirement for God to be all powerful, keyword: all the time, is NOT a requirement. This is an important biblical truth. It leaves the door wide open for many other claims. It allows us to ask the questions IF God is not required to read the heart of men... to do miracles... to be everywhere... all the time... These powers of God are all questionable now (Notice I'm not claiming any specific answers). This is good for our study of God.
More to the point...
First of all, I think there's intuitive problems with God determining people to God to heaven and hell. There's moral tensions... and I believe blind faith among Calvinists to ignore that moral intention. That's unGodly... not necessarily faithful. I believe this state is described best in the following:
1 Timothy 4:2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
Our consciousnesses can possibly be seared. I've met Calvinists that struggle with their own conscious... understanding what a worthless and evil God Calvinism seems to make God... struggling with their conscious to accept what they really think is a good interpretation.
We have a God Romans 2:14-15 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, 15 since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them
God gave everyone the law in our hearts and a conscious (perhaps these two are the same). Either way, if there's moral tension, it needs to be resolved, not dismissed naively.
Secondly, God not having to be all powerful all the time... opens the question of God necessarily determining people to heaven and/or hell. I personally believe God does not need humans to be glorified... like Calvinists do. I believe it does not diminish God's glory in any way for humans to do anything. So, I already have an answer. He doesn't need to determine humans because God never needed humans in any way to be God. God was God before humans ever existed.
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Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, yo obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.[1 Timothy 1:1-5]
God quickening us is Him causing us to be born again.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,[Ephesians 2:4-6]
While we were dead, He made us alive. He raised us to life from the dead by His regenerative power, the same power that raised the Christ from the dead.[Ephesians 1:19,20] Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again. He did not tell him he must do something to be born again either.
God quickening us is Him causing us to be born again.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,[Ephesians 2:4-6]
While we were dead, He made us alive. He raised us to life from the dead by His regenerative power, the same power that raised the Christ from the dead.[Ephesians 1:19,20] Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again. He did not tell him he must do something to be born again either.