Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[oldethennew]

OK now how is this relevant to the subject of eternal security? Chapter 4 Peter is laying out that Christians are going to suffer afflictions because they name the name of Christ. Verse 19 confirms that even through all the suffering that we are to be at peace because it is God Who is keeping our souls.

1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

===============================================

Roger,

here's the connection: the last part says, 'but live according to the Spirit, although vs.5
is speaking of 'carnal man that will be judged at the 'great white throne judgment'.
vs.6 switches midstream back to 'believers', because an un-believer
cannot live according to God in the Spirit.

HEB. 11:39-40, is saying a very similar message:
'And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.'

like in 1Peter 4:6, all these died in Faith , they all had the gospel preached unto them, and as
they were judged according to the way they lived, we also are judged exactly the same,
for God is no respecter of persons.'

this goes back to my scripture of 1Peter 4:17.

 

[notuptome]

===============================================

Roger,

here's the connection: the last part says, 'but live according to the Spirit, although vs.5
is speaking of 'carnal man that will be judged at the 'great white throne judgment'.
vs.6 switches midstream back to 'believers', because an un-believer
cannot live according to God in the Spirit.

HEB. 11:39-40, is saying a very similar message:
'And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.'

like in 1Peter 4:6, all these died in Faith , they all had the gospel preached unto them, and as
they were judged according to the way they lived, we also are judged exactly the same,
for God is no respecter of persons.'

this goes back to my scripture of 1Peter 4:17.

Nope faulty exegesis of the text. This is the common outcome of proof texting.

Chapter 4 Peter is laying out that the world thinks it strange that believers do not do the things they did before but now live for Christ.

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The dead in the verse is believers who have died physically but are living unto God in the Spirit. Some believers suffer even unto death which causes they world to esteem them judged of God but believers know they rest safely with their Savior.

Nothing in the context of this chapter allows for the premise that believers are judged like unbelievers. To assume such a thing would place the context in jeopardy with the rest of scripture. Judgment for believers is not unto condemnation ever but only according to rewards. Unbelievers are already judged unto condemnation with no hope for reprieve.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

The Law has been done away with because Jesus has fulfilled the Law. We are no longer under the Law. We are under Grace.

So why are people trying to put themselves back under the Law?

Romans 2:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Romans 6:14
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Galatians 3:6-14
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. [SUP]8 [/SUP]The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” [SUP]11 [/SUP]Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” [SUP]12 [/SUP]However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” [SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— [SUP]14 [/SUP]in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

No the law has not been done away but it has been fulfilled in Christ. The law does not condemn Christians and the penalty of the law has been paid in full by Christ.

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Lu 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No the law has not been done away but it has been fulfilled in Christ. The law does not condemn Christians and the penalty of the law has been paid in full by Christ.

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Lu 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amen.

Whoever is under law is under a curse. Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree... (gal 3)

Christ removed the curse from us by becoming that curse on the cross..

 

[oldethennew]

notuptome,

you have not understood our point, so we will agree to disagree


'Nothing in the context of this chapter allows for the premise that believers are judged like unbelievers.'
where you got this idea from is baffling, please show us where we have said this...
if we said this, then we will certainly 'retract' and admit that we were in error, for we don't
believe that believers and un-believers are judged on an equal basis...

 

[PeterJens]

we need , ( and I , others on here, and the church I go to tries to do this ) , is to reconcile these two things. show non-believers that God loves them, and wants them to believe In Him, and His Son, and save them from sin, and get the churches to stop bashing , false teaching, and get out, get your hands dirty, and HELP LOST PEOPLE, not condem them.

I agree with this, we need to help lost people, but they also need to see the problem
is their sin and rebellion in their hearts.

All churches that I know are very much into loving sinners and trying to help them where
they are and are not bashing them as you say.

 

[notuptome]

===============================================


like in 1Peter 4:6, all these died in Faith , they all had the gospel preached unto them, and as
they were judged according to the way they lived, we also are judged exactly the same,
for God is no respecter of persons.'

this goes back to my scripture of 1Peter 4:17.

notuptome,

you have not understood our point, so we will agree to disagree


'Nothing in the context of this chapter allows for the premise that believers are judged like unbelievers.'
where you got this idea from is baffling, please show us where we have said this...
if we said this, then we will certainly 'retract' and admit that we were in error, for we don't
believe that believers and un-believers are judged on an equal basis...

You suggested it in your post.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PeterJens]

If people feel condemned when they hear truth then it is most likely within themselves. D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness is anti-Christ in it's nature and essence.

I for one do not accept that we are doing DIY self-righteousness, we are just following Jesus
being empowered by His Spirit to walk righteously in love.

I am saying this is a slander and false accusation against people of God, given by a man who
claims to be a christian but has no problem accusing people without evidence of sin and the
need to repent.

Now I accept he has a different faith, and within his view of salvation, anyone following Jesus
is trying to save themselves. So I forgive him, and understand why these words and ideas are
put together because he literally cannot help it. The compromise for failure to overcome your
own sin is to deny its relevance and become so hyper-legalistic you will forever sin, even though
there is no sin in heaven.

But this is what happens when theology goes wild, and the goal is not to balance scripture and
our walk with the Lord but to satisfy deep emotional needs and alienation from the true gospel
of Christ.

 

[gb9]

I agree with this, we need to help lost people, but they also need to see the problem
is their sin and rebellion in their hearts.

All churches that I know are very much into loving sinners and trying to help them where
they are and are not bashing them as you say.

again, half right. sin and rebellion, big problem. but we have to recognize that churches have played a role in pushing people away from God by saying things like " you are not truly saved if you do not speak in tongues, you have to believe in the Rapture, if you drink a beer, watch a movie ( not porn ) then you are going to hell , you have to be in church every sunday, you did not get healed because of your lack of faith "

I could go on and on. so, a two sided problem to be sure!!

 

[Vdp]

Many Churches today do not follow what the Holy Spirit says in the Scriptures. Instead they follow man made rules.

 

[heavenly_bound]

his debate is really of no real value, there are 2 sides to every story and somewhere in the middle is the truth, this is the same as freewill verses predestination, each "side" can provide scripture that "proves" their belief, do we have eternal security yes... can we forfeit our salvation and turn away , yes , there are text in both the OT and the NT that seem to support both views, the fact is both cannot be true some somehow there is misunderstand or information that's not being considered, so why not approach this from and evidence standpoint and stop becoming upset or offended when someone is presenting from an opposing view, it is healthy to discuss these things maturely , after all, if it be truth, it will stand all scrutiny from the word in context, if its not we need to be mature enough to see it as it is and jettison the unsound beliefs and replace them with truth, not my truth or yours.... THE truth, HIS, all of us here love our Savior and we need not oppose one another but humbly seek to learn and grow as we aled to by His Spirit.
I just wish to say that we should be careful when we quote passages from the Old and New Testaments. They do not carry the same weight. The OT is call old bc it has been replaced with the New; when God calls something old, that thing is old and ready to vanish away (Heb 8:13). The Old Testament is written FOR us and not TO us; in other words it does not directly address the church of Jesus Christ. When we get into the OT we must interpret the scriptures therein in light of the NEW.
Another thing is this, just bc the synoptic gospels are found in the portion of the bible called the new testament, means that they are among the new testament books; A testament is only valid after the death of the testator, thus the new testament begins only after the cross( death burial resurrection ascension and session of Christ)! The synoptic gospels like any other portion of the OT (the scriptures), must be interpreted in light of the New Testament books (the epistles of the apostles); the method Grace 777 has just used while presenting his points of view on our predestination and eternal security in Christ.

 

[PeterJens]

again, half right. sin and rebellion, big problem. but we have to recognize that churches have played a role in pushing people away from God by saying things like " you are not truly saved if you do not speak in tongues, you have to believe in the Rapture, if you drink a beer, watch a movie ( not porn ) then you are going to hell , you have to be in church every sunday, you did not get healed because of your lack of faith "

I could go on and on. so, a two sided problem to be sure!!

gb9 - when I was a teenager I went on an evangelistic missionary ship. Amongst all the hype
and faith, I found loneliness and pain, along with great joy and blessing.

I saw an ex-terrorist commit himself to the word of God, commentaries and preach to a prison,
where all the inmates came to Christ. He was a great brother.

The church has always been individuals and their walk with the Lord. Love is so profound and deep
but those who dedicate and follow Jesus to this place, find great blessing, but few are prepared to
pay the price.

cc demonstrates most of us after decades are still babies, and are not sure how to team up and see
God move in a big way. But He will, if we humble ourselves and pray, and learn to walk as He desires.
We will always have excuses pointing to others, when in our lives it is us who still need to learn the
basics again.

 

[Grace777x70]

The biblical sign of being a babe in Christ is clearly brought out by 1 Peter 2:1-3.

We can be a Christian for 50 years, read the bible cover to cover for hours each day, pray 5 hours a day, read the Greek and Hebrew fluently, pastor a church for 40 years - and still be a baby Christian.

Hebrews 5 tells us it's in knowing the "word of righteousness" is where we grow up in the Lord. Not our righteousness that we do but it's in the knowing and complete reliance on Christ's righteousness alone which is ours by faith in His completed work.

We are righteous because of Christ - not because of what we have or have not done. There are "fruits of righteousness" that stems from the life of Christ in and through us - but that is a different subject.

Here are the signs of someone still being a baby Christian according to Peter.

1 Peter 2:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.

 

[heavenly_bound]

perfect gb9! that is the real problem the church faces in this church age! well done!

 

[gb9]

gb9 - when I was a teenager I went on an evangelistic missionary ship. Amongst all the hype
and faith, I found loneliness and pain, along with great joy and blessing.

I saw an ex-terrorist commit himself to the word of God, commentaries and preach to a prison,
where all the inmates came to Christ. He was a great brother.

The church has always been individuals and their walk with the Lord. Love is so profound and deep
but those who dedicate and follow Jesus to this place, find great blessing, but few are prepared to
pay the price.

cc demonstrates most of us after decades are still babies, and are not sure how to team up and see
God move in a big way. But He will, if we humble ourselves and pray, and learn to walk as He desires.
We will always have excuses pointing to others, when in our lives it is us who still need to learn the
basics again.

I am seeing God move in a big way. my church just finished expanding, because we needed more seats and space for youth enviornments. and the message we teach is not turn or burn. it is " leading people into a growing relashionship with Jesus."

yes, some people, the Sprit grabs, transforms instantly. but not everyone comes to faith in a moment, or a week, or a month, or a year. those folks are just as important to God as instant converts, right? it is about helping people right? it I not about shoving everyone into 1 mold of conversion right?

 

[Grace777x70]

I am seeing God move in a big way. my church just finished expanding, because we needed more seats and space for youth enviornments. and the message we teach is not turn or burn. it is " leading people into a growing relashionship with Jesus."

yes, some people, the Sprit grabs, transforms instantly. but not everyone comes to faith in a moment, or a week, or a month, or a year. those folks are just as important to God as instant converts, right? it is about helping people right? it I not about shoving everyone into 1 mold of conversion right?

Amen!

Another aspect that goes with "fruit inspectors" is just what is fruit? And what does this fruit look like. What if as an analogy a Christian is like an orange tree?

An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?

To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved ) So, this fruit inspection thing is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.

A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life.

The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol ( or basically anything that they themselves don't struggle with in their flesh that others do ) will condemn the ones that do have these struggles in the flesh and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.

Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?

What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.

I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ in their lives so that they have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him!

 

[mailmandan]

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

James 2:19 (KJV, MBM)

The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent belief," as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance in Christ for salvation," as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

I believe "mental assent" that George Washington existed and I also believe in the historical facts about George Washington, but I am not trusting in George Washington as the all sufficient means of my salvation. See the difference? Saving belief/faith is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence of God or historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith trusts exclusively in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Demons don't believe in Jesus Christ. They believe that God is One.

Amen! The demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

 

[Demi777]

Amen! The demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

If they wouldnt belive in Christ they would have not cried out to Jesus in the man of Legion. Luke 4:33 32They were astonished at His teaching, because His message had authority. 33In the synagogue there was a man possessed by the spirit of an unclean demon. He cried out in a loud voice, 34“Ha! What do You want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are, the Holy One of God!”…

If they wouldnt believe in Jesus they wouldnt be afraid of him. They know him. They have their boss Satan but they very much believe in Jesus and fear him more than Satan. They also believe in God..

 

[mailmandan]

If they wouldnt belive in Christ they would have not cried out to Jesus in the man of Legion. Luke 4:33 32They were astonished at His teaching, because His message had authority. 33In the synagogue there was a man possessed by the spirit of an unclean demon. He cried out in a loud voice, 34“Ha! What do You want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are, the Holy One of God!”…

If they wouldnt believe in Jesus they wouldnt be afraid of him. They know him. They have their boss Satan but they very much believe in Jesus and fear him more than Satan. They also believe in God..

The demons know who Jesus is, the Holy One of God, yet they reject Him. They do not entrust their spiritual well being to Christ/trust in Him for salvation, as genuine believers do. There is a difference between "knowing who Jesus is" and what it means to "know Him/have an intimate relationship with Jesus" (John 17:3).