Another reason not to ignore OT history.

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A

Ariel82

Guest
#21
want to read the rest of it and what Jesus had to say about it, if it was actually around during His time?

Let there be no hope for informers, and may all the heretics and all the wicked instantly perish; may all the enemies of Your people be speedily extirpated; and may You swiftly uproot, break, crush and subdue the reign of wickedness speedily in our days. Blessed are You L-rd, who crushes enemies and subdues the wicked.
May Your mercies be aroused, L-rd our G‑d, upon the righteous, upon the pious, upon the elders of Your people, the House of Israel, upon the remnant of their sages, upon the righteous proselytes and upon us. Grant ample reward to all who truly trust in Your Name, and place our lot among them; may we never be disgraced, for we have put our trust in You. Blessed are You L-rd, the support and security of the righteous.
Return in mercy to Jerusalem Your city and dwell therein as You have promised; speedily establish therein the throne of David Your servant, and rebuild it, soon in our days, as an everlasting edifice. Blessed are You L-rd, who rebuilds Jerusalem. Speedily cause the scion of David Your servant to flourish, and increase his power by Your salvation, for we hope for Your salvation all day. Blessed are You L-rd, who causes the power of salvation to flourish.

Hear our voice, L-rd our G‑d; merciful Father, have compassion upon us and accept our prayers in mercy and favor, for You are G‑d who hears prayers and supplications; do not turn us away empty-handed from You, our King, for You hear the prayer of everyone. Blessed are You L-rd, who hears prayer.

Look with favor, L-rd our G‑d, on Your people Israel and pay heed to their prayer; restore the service to Your Sanctuary and accept with love and favor Israel's fire-offerings and prayer; and may the service of Your people Israel always find favor.

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On Rosh Chodesh and Chol HaMoed,
(Our G‑d. . . may there ascend) is recited here.

Our G‑d and G‑d of our fathers, may there ascend, come and reach, be seen, accepted, and heard, recalled and remembered before You, the remembrance and recollection of us, the remembrance of our fathers, the remembrance of Mashiach the son of David Your servant, the remembrance of Jerusalem Your holy city, and the remembrance of all Your people the House of Israel, for deliverance, well-being, grace, kindness, mercy, good life and peace, on this day of
On Rosh Chodesh: Rosh Chodesh
On the holiday of Passover: the Festival of Matzot
On the holiday of Sukkot: the Festival of Sukkot.
Remember us on this [day], L-rd our G‑d, for good; be mindful of us on this [day] for blessing; help us on this [day] for good life. With the promise of deliverance and Compassion, spare us and be gracious to us; have mercy upon us and deliver us; for our eyes are directed to You, for You, G‑d, are a gracious and merciful King.
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May our eyes behold Your return to Zion in mercy. Blessed are You L-rd, who restores His Divine Presence to Zion.
We thankfully acknowledge that You are the L-rd our G‑d and G‑d of our fathers forever. You are the strength of our life, the shield of our salvation in every generation. We will give thanks to You and recount Your praise, evening, morning and noon, for our lives which are committed into Your hand, for our souls which are entrusted to You, for Your miracles which are with us daily, and for Your continual wonders and beneficences. You are the Beneficent One, for Your mercies never cease; the Merciful One, for Your kindnesses never end; for we always place our hope in You.
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On Chanukah and Purim, the following is added.
And [we thank You] for the miracles, for the redemption, for the mighty deeds, for the saving acts, and for the wonders which You have wrought for our ancestors in those days, at this time ---
On Chanukah continue here:

In the days of Matityahu, the son of Yochanan the High Priest, the Hasmonean and his sons, when the wicked Hellenic government rose up against Your people Israel to make them forget Your Torah and violate the decrees of Your will. But You, in Your abounding mercies, stood by them in the time of their distress. You waged their battles, defended their rights and avenged the wrong done to them. You delivered the mighty into the hands of the weak, the many into the hands of the few, the impure into the hands of the pure, the wicked into the hands of the righteous, and the wanton sinners into the hands of those who occupy themselves with Your Torah. You made a great and holy name for Yourself in Your world, and effected a great deliverance and redemption for Your people to this very day. Then Your children entered the shrine of Your House, cleansed Your Temple, purified Your Sanctuary, kindled lights in Your holy courtyards, and instituted these eight days of Chanukah to give thanks and praise to Your great Name.
On Purim continue here:
In the days of Mordechai and Esther, in Shushan the capital, when the wicked Haman rose up against them, and sought to destroy, slaughter and annihilate all the Jews, young and old, infants and women, in one day, on the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, the month of Adar, and to take their spoil for plunder. But You, in Your abounding mercies, foiled his counsel and frustrated his intention, and caused the evil he planned --- to recoil on his own head, and they hanged him and his sons upon the gallows.
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And for all these, may Your Name, our King, be continually blessed, exalted and extolled forever and all time.

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During the Ten Days of Penitence add:

Inscribe all the children of Your Covenant for a good life.
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And all living things shall forever thank You, and praise Your great Name eternally, for You are good. G‑d, You are our everlasting salvation and help, O benevolent G‑d. Blessed are You L-rd, Beneficent is Your Name, and to You it is fitting to offer thanks. Bestow peace, goodness and blessing, life, graciousness, kindness and mercy, upon us and upon all Your people Israel. Bless us, our Father, all of us as one, with the light of Your countenance. For by the light of Your countenance You gave us, L-rd our G‑d, the Torah of life and loving-kindness, righteousness, blessing, mercy, life and peace. May it be favorable in Your eyes to bless Your people Israel, at all times and at every moment, with Your peace.
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During the Ten Days of Penitence add: And in the Book of life, blessing, peace and prosperity, deliverance, consolation and favorable decrees, may we and all Your people the House of Israel be remembered and inscribed before You for a happy life and for peace.
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Blessed are You L-rd, who blesses His people Israel with peace. May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable before You, L-rd, my Strength and my Redeemer.
My G‑d, guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking deceitfully. Let my soul be silent to those who curse me; let my soul be as dust to all. Open my heart to Your Torah, and let my soul eagerly pursue Your commandments. As for all those who plot evil against me, hasten to annul their counsel and frustrate their design. Let them be as chaff before the wind; let the angel of the L-rd thrust them away. That Your beloved ones may be delivered, help with Your right hand and answer me. Do it for the sake of Your Name; do it for the sake of Your right hand; do it for the sake of Your Torah; do it for the sake of Your holiness. May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable before You, L-rd, my Strength and my Redeemer.
Before reciting the following verse one should bow, and in this bowed position, take three steps backward. While still bowing, he should turn his head to his left saying, "He who makes peace in His heavens"; bow forward, saying, "may He"; turn his head to his right, saying, "make peace for us"; and finally bow forward, saying, "and for all Israel; and say, Amen".
He who makes peace (During the Ten Days of Penitence say: the peace) in His heavens, may He make peace for us and for all Israel; and say, Amen.
May it be Your will, L-rd our G‑d and G‑d of our fathers, that the Bet Hamikdash be speedily rebuilt in our days, and grant us our portion in Your Torah.

Translation of the Weekday Amidah - Prayer
Mark 14:58

“We heard Him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.’”


They don't even know what they are praying for or how God has already established the Jerusalem in Heaven.

Galatians 4
[SUP]24 [/SUP]which things are symbolic. For these are the[SUP][d][/SUP] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— [SUP]25 [/SUP]for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— [SUP]26 [/SUP]but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#22
Right on. It starts with what they knew (milk) and goes on to solid food. They had the beginnings, Christ is superior. Isn't that what I said?
My apologies if I misunderstood you, ma'am. :)

I'll just say again that the entire Bible is a Christian book.
No they and we...it's all about Jesus from Genesis to the Revelation.

The Law and the prophets were given to lead the nation of Israel to Jesus Christ.
The Law to show how much we need Him...the prophets so they would know him when He came.

That may be overly simplistic, but it's 2:30 am and I'm working on 90 minutes sleep.
:eek:
 
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psychomom

Guest
#23
want to read the rest of it and what Jesus had to say about it, if it was actually around during His time?



Mark 14:58

“We heard Him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.’”


They don't even know what they are praying for or how God has already established the Jerusalem in Heaven.

Galatians 4
[SUP]24 [/SUP]which things are symbolic. For these are the[SUP][d][/SUP] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— [SUP]25 [/SUP]for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— [SUP]26 [/SUP]but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Let there be no hope for informers, and may all the heretics and all the wicked instantly perish; may all the enemies of Your people be speedily extirpated; and may You swiftly uproot, break, crush and subdue the reign of wickedness speedily in our days. Blessed are You L-rd, who crushes enemies and subdues the wicked.
As for all those who plot evil against me, hasten to annul their counsel and frustrate their design. Let them be as chaff before the wind; let the angel of the L-rd thrust them away.
For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (John 3:17)

If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. (John 12:47-48)

Just thought I'd throw that in there, too. Ariel. :)
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#24
hmm maybe ill try sleeping only 90 minutes:p
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,059
114
63
#25
It was after the destruction of the first temple, not when Rome destroyed it in 72. When Nebuchadnezzar destroyed it. I don't think any historian thought it was at the destruction that Rome did. History tells them Ezra and Nehemiah was involved. The Jews had become spiritually weak, and a large group of men got together to decide how to strengthen them when they returned from exile in Babylon. And no one knows if Jesus used the Amidah for the Lord's Prayer. Jesus never told us that. What is of interest, I'm told, is what it shows of Jewish thinking, and the similarity of this prayer to the Lord's prayer. Jesus was one with the Father, he would not need to copy a prior prayer. It amazes me that people feel that having this information is some kind of threat. How could it harm anyone? Although I guess lots of people simply don't believe history at all. Historians I have read agree this is pretty well documented. Orthodox Jews still recite it.
You know the Lord's prayer prior to the cross was actually under Law and as a matter of fact, all and everything done by Christ before the cross was Christ fulfilling all Law and Prophets for this is what he came to do
[h=3]Matthew 5:17[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Now when he went to the cross, did he complete his task? and after the cross are we under the Old Covenant or a new Covenant

[h=3]Hebrews 9:15-17[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Is there a change of Priesthood?
Hebrews 7:11
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Hebrews 7:14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Hebrews 7:24
But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
1 Peter 2:9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Why are you all bickering over this prayer or that that one especially the Lord's prayer prior to the cross this prayer was about him making it to the cross to die for the sins of the whole world and come back to life togive us life here and now today in the Spirit of Christ, which is the only way God can be worshipped


  1. John 4:23
    But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
    John 4:22-24 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
  2. John 4:24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
    John 4:23-25 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
  3. John 14:17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
    John 14:16-18 (in Context) John 14 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
  4. John 16:13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    John 16:12-14 (in Context) John 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
  5. Ephesians 5:9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

    Please let us all get on the same page in LOVE God's type and Love one another and quit disputing over doubtful things as Roman 14 is well versed in explainimg this truth that we allhere have a common denominator JESUS CHRIST our LORD and SAVIOR
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
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#26
You know the Lord's prayer prior to the cross was actually under Law and as a matter of fact, all and everything done by Christ before the cross was Christ fulfilling all Law and Prophets for this is what he came to do
Matthew 5:17

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Now when he went to the cross, did he complete his task? and after the cross are we under the Old Covenant or a new Covenant

Hebrews 9:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Is there a change of Priesthood?
Hebrews 7:11
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Hebrews 7:14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Hebrews 7:24
But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
1 Peter 2:9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Why are you all bickering over this prayer or that that one especially the Lord's prayer prior to the cross this prayer was about him making it to the cross to die for the sins of the whole world and come back to life togive us life here and now today in the Spirit of Christ, which is the only way God can be worshipped


  1. John 4:23
    But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
    John 4:22-24 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
  2. John 4:24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
    John 4:23-25 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
  3. John 14:17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
    John 14:16-18 (in Context) John 14 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
  4. John 16:13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    John 16:12-14 (in Context) John 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
  5. Ephesians 5:9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

    Please let us all get on the same page in LOVE God's type and Love one another and quit disputing over doubtful things as Roman 14 is well versed in explainimg this truth that we allhere have a common denominator JESUS CHRIST our LORD and SAVIOR
I am not sure what the difference that Christ made in our world has to do with reading the Amidah to see how similar it is to the Lord's Prayer. Although, I think that difference is something that is often misunderstood, to get off the track of my thread. In fact, reading the Amadah tells us that the Jews went to God for forgiveness, and I don't think they realized at all that is through blood (they only had a shadow of that blood) of Christ that forgiveness came to them. We have that Christ fulfilled, and that means we have His blood for forgiveness not just a symbol of His blood, so we are not under law but under the forgiveness of our sins through Christ. I think we have to look into what God means very carefully when He says they were under law. They had forgiveness, too, it was called atonement. And we know that scripture is right, we must look to our understanding of it. They did not all die, for we are told plainly of ones who lived. When the curtain was torn in the temple when Christ was resurrected, many of them awoke from their sleep.

I notice that someone found the benediction that was added to this prayer after Christ. It shows the reaction of the Jews who did not accept Christ as God, and I think it is still added to the original prayer in synagogues today. This prayer was part of the service in the synagogue and we know at least Peter and John went to that service so they must had heard this prayer. I wonder when that addition against heretics was made and if they heard it???

I am glad all of you are taking the time to read and think about how the Jews thought! I think it can add to our understanding of the world that Christ lived in those years He was here.
 
May 5, 2013
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#27
ok, its a long thread and I'm confused now, is that the prayer we should use or no?
and howcome when I looked Amidah on the wiki the other day I didnt get any of that you just wrote?
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#28
this is one of those times where you can't be sure exactly how far back a rabbinic tradition actually goes...we have no idea if this prayer was recited before jesus' time because all records of it are later than jesus' time...
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#29
ok, its a long thread and I'm confused now, is that the prayer we should use or no?
and howcome when I looked Amidah on the wiki the other day I didnt get any of that you just wrote?
Christ instructed us with a prayer, it is in Matthew 6. If you read the Amidah you do that to learn how the Jews thought after they had spent their time in Babylon, and to compare it with the prayer we are told to use. If you read the benediction they added to this prayer after Christ was crucified, you are learning how the Jews felt about Christ. This prayer has not been added to our scripture, it is not in the bible. We are to follow scripture.

Perhaps it would be possible (not an order) to follow this prayer, but ONLY after checking it carefully with scripture. I think it would be wrong to use the added part about heretics, they added this thinking Christ was a heretic.

Don't know why you can't find this prayer on the internet. It is there on many sites, and always the same, although some include the benedict about heretics and some only the original without this benedict added later.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,783
2,947
113
#30
I am just not seeing how this prayer is "Old Testament history" unless you mean something that occurred during the same period the Old Testament was written?

Since it is not included in the Bible, I would assume that makes it uninspired by God. So why would Jesus use a text that was not inspired as the basis of the Lord's prayer?

After reading the Talmud commentaries, I am quite convinced that Jews are following the traditions of men, not the Torah and certainly not Christ. And I agree with Ariel that the Talmud may be one of the biggest barriers for Jews coming to Christ. Is this prayer even included in the Talmud, man-made though it is?

I appreciate you trying to open up history for us, but history must have some factual basis. Where are the scrolls and the ancient archeological evidence of this prayer? I prefer to read the Bible and to pray from my heart, not something which is of questionable origin and definitely not something which infers that Jesus used it, when there is absolutely no scriptural, historical or archeological evidence!
 
May 5, 2013
161
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#31
Ok, so I would be wise NOT to pray from the Amidah?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#32
it would be wise to pray to God from your heart and as Jesus taught.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#33
. This prayer was part of the service in the synagogue and we know at least Peter and John went to that service so they must had heard this prayer.
could you give me reliable historical sources that show that this prayer was recited in the synagogue during Jesus time and that Peter and John went there to hear it?

i've seen in the bible where some OT scriptures are quoted, where Jesus read from the book of Isaiah, but I don't see any sources online and definitely not Biblical that say that this prayer even existed.

I've seen two different views from JEWISH websites that say that this prayer was only created to replace Temple sacrifices after 70 AD and some who say it was created after the destruction of the FIRST temple.

however looking at the prayer itself one would wonder why is it praying for the temple to be rebuilt if it is being read at the temple during Jesus time?

the prayer itself doesn't really bother me, its like any liturgical ritual. Just the still unsupported claims that JESUS was influenced by this prayer.

if you have documentation, websites, sources where you got that information, I really would like to see it because I haven't seen anything online that cite historical documents. just a bunch of assertions with nothing to back them up.

I would just like to know was this prayer written BEFORE or AFTER Jesus and some documented historical sources for either case since we are supposedly talking about OT history.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#34
I think it would be wrong to use the added part about heretics, they added this thinking Christ was a heretic.
so why anyone would even handle such a document (as if it had spiritual value) i do not know.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,059
114
63
#35
I am not sure what the difference that Christ made in our world has to do with reading the Amidah to see how similar it is to the Lord's Prayer. Although, I think that difference is something that is often misunderstood, to get off the track of my thread. In fact, reading the Amadah tells us that the Jews went to God for forgiveness, and I don't think they realized at all that is through blood (they only had a shadow of that blood) of Christ that forgiveness came to them. We have that Christ fulfilled, and that means we have His blood for forgiveness not just a symbol of His blood, so we are not under law but under the forgiveness of our sins through Christ. I think we have to look into what God means very carefully when He says they were under law. They had forgiveness, too, it was called atonement. And we know that scripture is right, we must look to our understanding of it. They did not all die, for we are told plainly of ones who lived. When the curtain was torn in the temple when Christ was resurrected, many of them awoke from their sleep.

I notice that someone found the benediction that was added to this prayer after Christ. It shows the reaction of the Jews who did not accept Christ as God, and I think it is still added to the original prayer in synagogues today. This prayer was part of the service in the synagogue and we know at least Peter and John went to that service so they must had heard this prayer. I wonder when that addition against heretics was made and if they heard it???

I am glad all of you are taking the time to read and think about how the Jews thought! I think it can add to our understanding of the world that Christ lived in those years He was here.
Thanks RedTent, I enjoy your thoughts on things it helps in edification, for I have learned to sift all through my new Heart and learn truth from God and it is interesting because the disciples, were to stay among the circumcision while went to the gentiles uncircumcised, Law and grace. It is so hard today with all the mixing of Law and Grace that goes on today. Been there and done that and was most miserable under Law, now after breaking away from Law as most I went and took advantage for awhile, not uunderstanding what God's total forgiveness was in place to do.
Then I read this, after wondering why God had been so kind to me, when this world is not, I then understood what God's kindness meant and means to me, and how it changed me after reading these from the word, I showed contempt
Romans 2:4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
2 Corinthians 7:2[ Paul’s Joy Over the Church’s Repentance ] Make room for us in your hearts. We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have exploited no one.
I made room forthe apostles to learn from them what they had written, seeing from there side of what happened to them
2 Corinthians 7:9yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.

2 Corinthians 7:10Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
2 Timothy 2:25Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

I sought this out and still seek to know the whole truth and nothing but the truth so show me God
Hebrews 6:1Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,
Hebrews 6:6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Thanks RedTent and love you deeply as god just does too!!!!!!