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The error of "Partial Depravity versus Total Depravity" is that BOTH SYSTEMS redefine grace.
The Total Depravity camp have saving grace defined as "Irresistible Grace" which offsets the "Inability of Man."
The Partial Depravity camp have saving grace defined as "Prevenient Grace" which offsets the "Inability of Man" but they teach that it can be resisted.
The truth is very simple though for the Bible makes no such distinctions in regards to saving grace for it teaches...
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Saving grace has appeared to all men. Saving grace teaches all men the way they ought to go. Saving grace does not offset anything because all men have the ability to choose.
It is erroneous to teach the "Inability" of Total Depravity. Likewise it is erroneous to teach that man can either accept or reject salvation apart from any influence from God. God has already influenced all men because his saving grace has already appeared to all men teaching them the way they should go. All men have been given a measure of light by the Word (Joh 1:9). The issue is to whether individuals CHOOSE to receive it or reject it. We either abide in the truth (doer of the word) or we rebel against it (refuse to do it).
The condemnation is in REJECTING the light.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
The only reason that people have redefined grace is due to the underlying error of man being "born a sinner." Thus, under this error, actual sin is the mere symptom of a birth sickness as opposed to being rooted in the free exercise of the will. Throw the underlying error away and the Bible begins to make sense.
The Total Depravity camp have saving grace defined as "Irresistible Grace" which offsets the "Inability of Man."
The Partial Depravity camp have saving grace defined as "Prevenient Grace" which offsets the "Inability of Man" but they teach that it can be resisted.
The truth is very simple though for the Bible makes no such distinctions in regards to saving grace for it teaches...
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Saving grace has appeared to all men. Saving grace teaches all men the way they ought to go. Saving grace does not offset anything because all men have the ability to choose.
It is erroneous to teach the "Inability" of Total Depravity. Likewise it is erroneous to teach that man can either accept or reject salvation apart from any influence from God. God has already influenced all men because his saving grace has already appeared to all men teaching them the way they should go. All men have been given a measure of light by the Word (Joh 1:9). The issue is to whether individuals CHOOSE to receive it or reject it. We either abide in the truth (doer of the word) or we rebel against it (refuse to do it).
The condemnation is in REJECTING the light.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
The only reason that people have redefined grace is due to the underlying error of man being "born a sinner." Thus, under this error, actual sin is the mere symptom of a birth sickness as opposed to being rooted in the free exercise of the will. Throw the underlying error away and the Bible begins to make sense.
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My main reason for posting was that i found it easier to post my view on romans
9-11 by a fairly competent vid. Then write a superlong thread.
Because it was part of a set of vids that happened to deal with calvinism and
as of late has become an issue.
But my main goal is in parts 4- 6. That gives my interpretation for the
overall point being the main issue of Romans 9-11 opposing the view that
its about personal salvation.
I hope some will enjoy it. Im not interested in any debate with any calvinists
in this thread at all. But dont mind any honest bad reviews.
This can just be another view for some. Take it or leave it. More to come
[video=youtube;Wt9ENcBoMRE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt9ENcBoMRE[/video]
9-11 by a fairly competent vid. Then write a superlong thread.
Because it was part of a set of vids that happened to deal with calvinism and
as of late has become an issue.
But my main goal is in parts 4- 6. That gives my interpretation for the
overall point being the main issue of Romans 9-11 opposing the view that
its about personal salvation.
I hope some will enjoy it. Im not interested in any debate with any calvinists
in this thread at all. But dont mind any honest bad reviews.
This can just be another view for some. Take it or leave it. More to come
[video=youtube;Wt9ENcBoMRE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt9ENcBoMRE[/video]
have not ever forgotten my answer to the two elderly women outside my door when they said this to me. I said oh well that is too bad , (they looked at me funny) and I said because I am 144,001 and shut my door. Much later in life I used how old is your religion and it was and is quite old started by TS Russel. So I said to this group since this is quite old have you not ever thought that more than 144,000 have already joined your denomination, and if what you say is true then it is too late for you all and all other religione as well.
Anyway Calvinism armeneism, and all isms are all man's ploy to get a gathering just like the purpose driven life in getting people to follow people instead of God. This is why I do not belong to any church, denomonation non-denomination or anything of that sort. I belong to God the maker of this entire universe, by his Son who took the Law all of it upon himself releasing me from the commandments that this world has placed on us. freed from by belief from the Law so I can serve him in appreciation of being set free from the Law that I never could obey in and of myself as the first chosen showed so well that they never could. Also when Jesus was here for the first Chosen what and who fought against him? Yes the Religous leaders of that day, and since their is nothing new under the sun do you think it still goes on today? and do you think he would go to church or would they kick him out? Hebrews 8 speaks quite well of this. Also with all the differant religions each that are preaching Christ and saying the others are wrong yet Christ is preached they are having divisions as Paul so well described as in 1 cor 3, that we are still Carnal and really wants to deliver the meat of the Word to them and they finally did get it and had a Godly sorrow just like King David Did after Nathaniel exposed what he did to David. All I can say is God just love you period and all the whole world. The ELECT were the first Chosen in the line of Abraham with Issaac, but because they the first chosen did not believe that they were freed from trying to obey the LAw by Christ's death and then they could and would have recieved life but they chose to continue trying to obey the Law. So God went and got Saul showed Saul who became Paul brought the Gospel over to us the gentiles and showed us by belief in the finished work of Christ we recieve a free gift not of works lest any man should boast a free gift of life, your choice, and in Romans 11 this is explained that we were grafted in. GOD JUST LOVE US ALL so today if anyone has not chosen today is the day
Wow! religion is only about what we are doing for God, Religionists are no more than initiators trying to please God and other people by what they are doing. For me I am a responder to God and thankful to God. If I were an iniator as I once was and if God ever responded to me by my initiation, that would make me GOD of GOD. For I remember when I was an initiator God never responded to me but people did and that made me feel good all fuzzy all over I therefore become GOD of all those responders as a Calvinist has done, a Babtist , and all religions have done and are doing using God's name as a lure to draw them in and use them just as what was going on in the day of Christ Jesus
Thanks for listening
W
Thanks Abiding for sharing what God gave to you. I thought predestination was getting way to much poorly disputed air time! It sounds good to me. I think it would be a hard message to convey, using the mortar blasts ,back and forth, which such conversations usually migrate towards here. This was Good
W
Homeward bound......I appreciate and understand your post above and think it of sincerity. I do see some contradiction but the message of Gods love covers many of our imperfections. I have very similar view points for the most part. One thing I often question myself about. The two ex streams i often struggle with. One, being that of Pride and self works and the knowledge that puffeth up and separates us ,focusing on our differences through acquired information. And on the other hand not standing in the grace that we all have in Christ and the adoption of children we have been predestined to.How do they say ,sin of omission and sins of commission....Sins of commission would be pride ,self works and its deceitful claim of Godliness.The other ,omission; to me would be our drawing back from what has been truly a position given us by Gods grace that we should walk in. The one saying that by works of the flesh and pride we are righteous , but the other would be to deny our place ordained by God and to partake of by faith and confidently declare to principalities and powers the manifold wisdom of God and is true to the glory of God. Jesus is the first among many brethren,and these many brethren will be like Christ. It is no sin to be like Christ for we were ordained to be such a people.When the word was made flesh among us and we be held the image of god, this image was the image of a servant.For it is said of Jesus that being found in the likeness of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God , but took upon him the form of a servant,(which is the likeness of God) I think In Jesus we all will be found in the image of God, and should find it robbery to be equal with God,( especially since he has made us thus)and being found in this fashion of God will also take upon us ,as god has,the form of a servant. It is just as sinful to not accept what God has given us as it is to by our own works to boast and falsely accept this calling. Gods plan is that we should be like him, and be God by his imparted nature to us,by Crist living in us. He wants us to enjoy the benefits of his family and nature . And take upon us his nature as a servant, loving not our lives unto death.No long robes here, no high seats in the markets ,not chief places in the synagogs, but servants , the true nature of the Father. I guess I'm just sharing whats on my mind . Satan sit s in the seat of God by a usurping pride, be we seat in the seat of God because he has redeemed us and called us there by his love,and for his glory. enough said .I hope i am not misunderstood
Yes I think God knows all and sees all, yet never as a tyrant nad has hope for all to change their mind to belief. To tell the truth this is why it has taken so long, he has given everything. made salvation soooooo special but he wrold can't see it and unbringings have cloaked over it with being good or bad and this is in the self that is truly hard to give up and 100% trust God. It is kind of like being at the edge of a cliff and God says jump you look over and see no bottom, you say what are you crazy, I can't jump I would be left to uncontrollable circumstances, I think I will just stay here where I am safe trying to do good. God says jump. I again say I hear you and I am afraid. That is when God said to me when you Jump I (God) will catch you in the palm of my hand and lead you the rest of your life. Now Howard if I (GOD) were not real Iwould not catch you and you would fall and fall and fall, but Howard I (GOD) am real. Zone this I did and have no regrets lots of tribulation for this world came against me, and I count it all joy knowing God will somehow always see me through
Thanks
Thanks
Thanks for sharing and keeping me reminded of pride and what pride does and is only of the flesh, which is dead to me in the carnal mind, but does have tricks that try yes to sit in Moses's seat, being a believer God through Christ has made you, you and you perfect in his sight because Father sees through his Son the propitiation of sin all sin. Father can not look at sin and Jesus took that problem away so Father could come and live in you teachng each believer truth. We are being taught by Father through the Holy Ghost on the basis of a new nature that he gave us a free gift. that is why 1John 3:3 says
1 John 3:3All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
One believes that God already made them pure by Christ, therefore one yells as Christ did It Is Finished
But when first come to him we are babes
1 Peter 2:2Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation
Thanks again and I see the struggle, Flesh does not want to die, read the post to Zone #30 it might help, and I doneed reminders as you did here that is what fellowship is truly about keeping each other in check
1 John 3:3All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
One believes that God already made them pure by Christ, therefore one yells as Christ did It Is Finished
But when first come to him we are babes
1 Peter 2:2Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation
Thanks again and I see the struggle, Flesh does not want to die, read the post to Zone #30 it might help, and I doneed reminders as you did here that is what fellowship is truly about keeping each other in check
It was the pharisees the saducees, and the religous leaders of Jesus's day that killed Jesus over Job security, if Christ even came today and had not then, the same thing would happen all over again he came to give the israelites freedom freedom from the curse of the Law filled it himself and gave this gift to men. unfortunately man has taken it trampled upon it rebuked it thrown it down and turned and attacked God for being so kind
As the parable says a man was hired early in the day and was told he would receive 20 dollars for the day a little later he hired another man and another and another and at the last hour of the day another. He called them all in at the end of the day. They lined up and the hirer told his servant to start with the last one and pay each 20 dollars for the day. The ones first hired started *****ing and complaining and the others started joining in, hey what is this when they only got 20 dollars as well they thought wow they should at least get a bonus since the last guy got the same amount. Sound familiar in this world and what flesh does.
Well the hirer turns looks at those complaining and says did you agree to work all day for 20 dollars? They say yes, and the hirer says so I did you no wrong. Then they say but, you gave the same amount to the others that did not even break a sweat.
The hirer says you mean you are mad at me because I am kind? Therefore God will have Mercy on whom God will have Mercy
As the parable says a man was hired early in the day and was told he would receive 20 dollars for the day a little later he hired another man and another and another and at the last hour of the day another. He called them all in at the end of the day. They lined up and the hirer told his servant to start with the last one and pay each 20 dollars for the day. The ones first hired started *****ing and complaining and the others started joining in, hey what is this when they only got 20 dollars as well they thought wow they should at least get a bonus since the last guy got the same amount. Sound familiar in this world and what flesh does.
Well the hirer turns looks at those complaining and says did you agree to work all day for 20 dollars? They say yes, and the hirer says so I did you no wrong. Then they say but, you gave the same amount to the others that did not even break a sweat.
The hirer says you mean you are mad at me because I am kind? Therefore God will have Mercy on whom God will have Mercy