-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
R
I do have something that I have never been able to get off my mind. when the Israelites had started to take the promise land one man disobeyed God and was punished harshly. Him, his wife, his children, all his animals and even his tents and such were killed and or destroyed. On one level I can understand why all that had to happen but still I cant shake the feeling that it was a bit much. Shortly after the Akkin (not sure of the spelling) events God allowed the looting of their enemies. My question is Where was the mercy for Akkin and his family?
every day that any man lives, is mercy.
we have never 'deserved' to see even a single sunrise.
mankind all seems to think he 'deserves' to exist, and to have peace and joy and possessions - but why? simply because mankind exists. but i think that even to exist at all is a mercy of God -- why should He ever have imagined me in the first place? but He did, and for His own good pleasure, not mine.
.
.
.
.
that's a pretty harsh answer, isn't it?
but i dare not judge God
we have never 'deserved' to see even a single sunrise.
mankind all seems to think he 'deserves' to exist, and to have peace and joy and possessions - but why? simply because mankind exists. but i think that even to exist at all is a mercy of God -- why should He ever have imagined me in the first place? but He did, and for His own good pleasure, not mine.
.
.
.
.
that's a pretty harsh answer, isn't it?
but i dare not judge God
R
That's a very disturbing answer. That answer would also indicate that mankind should consider itself worthless of anything, except scorn. I read about that sort of doctrine, it has people going around beating themselves. If God considered our lives worthless then I doubt He would call us His children or for that matter He wouldn't have died for our sins.
L
I know what you're talking about regarding the JW scriptures regarding Michael. They use 6 verses and claim they "suggest" Michael is Jesus, so it is "logical to conclude" they are the same person. Not a single one says Michael is Jesus. Jesus never taught that he was Michael, neither did the Apostles teach that He was Michael. However, there are a multitude of scripture that outright say Jesus is God. This is "another gospel" and "another Jesus" that believers are warned about.
Matthew 28:1-10 says that when Mary Magdalene went to the tomb that she was told by an angel that the Messiah had risen and would be seen in Galilee. Matthew then says that she ran "with great joy" to tell the disciples and while on the way that she met the Messiah (this occurred before she got to the disciples).
However, John 20:1 and 2 say that when she came to the tomb and didn't find the Messiah there, that she ran to the disciples and told them that He had been taken away and that she didn't know where He was. In Matthew she knew where He was (or at least had been) and where He would be, but in John she didn't. How can this be reconciled?
However, John 20:1 and 2 say that when she came to the tomb and didn't find the Messiah there, that she ran to the disciples and told them that He had been taken away and that she didn't know where He was. In Matthew she knew where He was (or at least had been) and where He would be, but in John she didn't. How can this be reconciled?
There where multiple trips to the tomb by the woman.. You will read that some of the disciples ridiculed the woman when they told them that Jesus was risen.
Mark 16:KJV
9 ¶Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 ¶After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
Luke 12:KJV 10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
The Apostles where mocking the woman as if they where delusional.. They did not believe the story that Jesus was risen until they saw Him themselves.. You can understand why these woman would grab other woman and take them back to the tomb to get someone to back up their stories.. Indeed the woman could have half believed the Apostles mocking and though that they where seeing things and went back to double check that what they experienced was actual reality.. Note also the Bible does not say the woman spoke to the same apostles /disciples every time..
Mark 16:KJV
9 ¶Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 ¶After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
Luke 12:KJV 10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
The Apostles where mocking the woman as if they where delusional.. They did not believe the story that Jesus was risen until they saw Him themselves.. You can understand why these woman would grab other woman and take them back to the tomb to get someone to back up their stories.. Indeed the woman could have half believed the Apostles mocking and though that they where seeing things and went back to double check that what they experienced was actual reality.. Note also the Bible does not say the woman spoke to the same apostles /disciples every time..
Bible worship is a dangerous thing. Translation worship is even more dangerous. The Bible has a large number of factual details that contradict each other found in all translations. The reasons being that fallible people had a part in writing it andmuch of it has a deeper meaning than is revealed in the plain text alone
Adstar,
re: "There where multiple trips to the tomb by the woman."
I wonder if you could put the following accounts in the order that you think they occurred, i.e., 1st visit, 2nd visit, etc. :
Matthew 28:1 - "Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb."
Mark 16:1 - "Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices that they might come and anoint Him.
Mark 16:2 - "Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen."
Luke 24:1 - Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared."
John: 20:1 - "On the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.
re: "There where multiple trips to the tomb by the woman."
I wonder if you could put the following accounts in the order that you think they occurred, i.e., 1st visit, 2nd visit, etc. :
Matthew 28:1 - "Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb."
Mark 16:1 - "Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices that they might come and anoint Him.
Mark 16:2 - "Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen."
Luke 24:1 - Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared."
John: 20:1 - "On the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.
So your testimony is we don't have absolute truth. Is that what you're saying? We really don't have anything we can stand upon to face this world. We really have nothing to give us assurance of what God has said. Most accurate still is not accurate. I'm not looking for "almost" when it comes to God's words.
First trip Matthew 28
They went there to visit the tomb at the end of the Sabbath so it was still saturday when Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went there to see the Sepulcher note this account says nothing about them going to anoint the body of Jesus.. It was still the Sabbath so they could do no work on the Sabbath and so they could not carry the stuff and they also knew that the tomb was still under guard.. The temple guards where guarding the tomb to stop anyone stealing the body and falsely claiming that Jesus was risen. So this visit was to see if the guards where still there and to simply visit the tomb of Jesus and to find out if the way was clear to anoint His body when the first day started after sunset Saturday..
Second trip Luke 24:
In this trip a lot more woman went.. I believe this was because the apostles had mocked the first report of Mary Magdalene and the other Mary that was with her.. This time they took more woman """" Luke 14:10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.""" This time they could take the spices in hope of being able to anoint the Body of Jesus . They could do so because now it was the first day of the week and the Sabbath was over and they could now do Work.. """""Luke24: 1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulcher, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.""""
Notice it does not say that the Sun had risen in Luke 24.. In this account the Apostles did not believe the report of the woman even when there where more woman to collaborate the story...
Luke 24: 11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
Third trip John 20:
This was the third time Mary Magdalene went to the tomb.. Probably out of desperation, to fully confirm to herself that she was not crazy you can imagine how she would feel after being ridiculed by the apostles.. This trip again was on the first day of the week still before the sun had risen..
John 20 1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
So Mary confirmed for herself that Jesus was not there and went back to tell the disciples but this time she told them that:: """John20:2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him."""
This report was more feasible and got Peter and the other Apostle running to the tomb to investigate.. So they ran to to tomb and looked inside and saw that the body of Jesus was gone so they believed the report.. Not the report that Jesus was risen from the dead.. But that Jesus body was gone. stolen. Because as it goes on to say::
John 20: 9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. 10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.
So poor Mary had got them this far she must have been totally depressed and she stayed back at the tomb.. She then looked into the tomb again and saw two angels and they asked her """ """ Woman, why weepest thou?""" Why would they ask this question? Because they already knew that she had experienced in the earlier visits so she should have been assured that Jesus was risen but she was filled with self doubt and thus she was weeping.. Of course she then turned around and and ran straight into Jesus.. no more denials now for Mary..
4th trip Mark 16..
This was after the Sun had risen...
Mark 16: 2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
This time they again found the tomb open and a ""young man"" ( probably an Angel) inside the tomb telling them that Jesus was risen.. But again they went back to tell the Apostles again....
Mark 16:10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
They still would not believe the woman...
But Jesus then appeared to the 11 and upbraided them ( find fault with or reproach severely; censure)
Mark 15: 14 ¶Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
So there you have the visits to the tomb in sequence, this was caused by a combination of the Apostles not believing the woman and the woman not really being confident enough in themselves to trust in what they saw and experienced..
They went there to visit the tomb at the end of the Sabbath so it was still saturday when Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went there to see the Sepulcher note this account says nothing about them going to anoint the body of Jesus.. It was still the Sabbath so they could do no work on the Sabbath and so they could not carry the stuff and they also knew that the tomb was still under guard.. The temple guards where guarding the tomb to stop anyone stealing the body and falsely claiming that Jesus was risen. So this visit was to see if the guards where still there and to simply visit the tomb of Jesus and to find out if the way was clear to anoint His body when the first day started after sunset Saturday..
Second trip Luke 24:
In this trip a lot more woman went.. I believe this was because the apostles had mocked the first report of Mary Magdalene and the other Mary that was with her.. This time they took more woman """" Luke 14:10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.""" This time they could take the spices in hope of being able to anoint the Body of Jesus . They could do so because now it was the first day of the week and the Sabbath was over and they could now do Work.. """""Luke24: 1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulcher, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.""""
Notice it does not say that the Sun had risen in Luke 24.. In this account the Apostles did not believe the report of the woman even when there where more woman to collaborate the story...
Luke 24: 11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
Third trip John 20:
This was the third time Mary Magdalene went to the tomb.. Probably out of desperation, to fully confirm to herself that she was not crazy you can imagine how she would feel after being ridiculed by the apostles.. This trip again was on the first day of the week still before the sun had risen..
John 20 1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
So Mary confirmed for herself that Jesus was not there and went back to tell the disciples but this time she told them that:: """John20:2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him."""
This report was more feasible and got Peter and the other Apostle running to the tomb to investigate.. So they ran to to tomb and looked inside and saw that the body of Jesus was gone so they believed the report.. Not the report that Jesus was risen from the dead.. But that Jesus body was gone. stolen. Because as it goes on to say::
John 20: 9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. 10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.
So poor Mary had got them this far she must have been totally depressed and she stayed back at the tomb.. She then looked into the tomb again and saw two angels and they asked her """ """ Woman, why weepest thou?""" Why would they ask this question? Because they already knew that she had experienced in the earlier visits so she should have been assured that Jesus was risen but she was filled with self doubt and thus she was weeping.. Of course she then turned around and and ran straight into Jesus..
no more denials now for Mary.. 4th trip Mark 16..
This was after the Sun had risen...
Mark 16: 2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
This time they again found the tomb open and a ""young man"" ( probably an Angel) inside the tomb telling them that Jesus was risen.. But again they went back to tell the Apostles again....
Mark 16:10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
They still would not believe the woman...
But Jesus then appeared to the 11 and upbraided them ( find fault with or reproach severely; censure)
Mark 15: 14 ¶Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
So there you have the visits to the tomb in sequence, this was caused by a combination of the Apostles not believing the woman and the woman not really being confident enough in themselves to trust in what they saw and experienced..
Firstly the early church didn't have four neatly bound printed copies of the Gospels to refer to and to make comparisons. The Gospels were written a number of decades after the events. According to tradition only Matthew and Johns Gospels were actually written by Apostles. Mark may have got his information from Peter but there is no concrete proof that he did. Much of his Gospel content was included in Matthews and Lukes versions.
The example you give is part of the resurrection narrative, the whole point of which is to tell the listeners and readers that Christ rose from the dead. Who came to the tomb first isn't relevant to our salvation and God is not going to test us on the answer.
At first Christ made a distinction between the food of men designed for these bodies of death that will die and the spiritual food of God, manna, which means; “what it is?” as in no familiarity.
He then moved the required sacrifice as the blood of a lamb to be brought into the houses to indicate as a parable the spiritual sacrifice of Christ, as a ceremonial law or shadow pointing ahead. ..
Behold, to morrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now.Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die. Exo 9:18-19
All that was not in the house died.
They longed for the meat they had in Egypt but none was given save the quail to be used to show they had become lukewarm and God vomited them from His mouth as His wrath revealed from heaven against them .
Num 11:33 And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague.
Manna to represent the word of God and water to represent the work of the spirit and water was the sole source used until they reached the promised temporal land that pointed to the promised eternal land( not seen) the new heavenly Jerusalem. And the manna which represented the word of God ceased.
And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year. oshua 5:12
