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I find it difficult to teach something for a regulary normal princip what was an exception. Only that God uses Deborah as judge, means not automatically that all women/can also become a judge.
We find in the NT letters which are first line are a measure for the church, that woman can preach. All the examples which are used for an pro to preach are not clear and you have to explain. But nowhere you find a clear: Yes, woman can preach/teach in the church. Also you cant find a woman in AT which served in the temple ore taught in the synagoge.
We find in the NT letters which are first line are a measure for the church, that woman can preach. All the examples which are used for an pro to preach are not clear and you have to explain. But nowhere you find a clear: Yes, woman can preach/teach in the church. Also you cant find a woman in AT which served in the temple ore taught in the synagoge.
Here is a good method of knowing if a preacher, male or female, is called to preach. When you feel the presence of God in thier preaching, there can be no denying the source........it is always God. Now, not all preachers have truly been called but they seem to suit a lot of people who are likewise.
Amen. I would offer the reformation restored the order back to the period of Judges.
That reformation seems all but forgotten about in my experiences. Therefore I would think losing the intended value to be used a parable in respect to the period of Kings.
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure (parable)for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them “until” the time of reformation. Heb 9:8
The time period of Kings was used as a parable up until the reformation had come to an end. A new order of government was necessary when families gathered together under the authority of God’s words.
New ceremonial laws were introduced. Previous ceremonial laws like the separation of women from men called the court of the women were separated. Christianity brought them together lifting up elevatinf woman to her proper place as equal with man.. both under the same unseen authority.
It is shown below in a parable in the Old Testament as a way of preaching the gospel in repsect to the suffering of Christ beforehand. Mordecai to represent Christ, unseen,as our daily bread of His word and Ester represnts the chaste virgin bride of Christ.
Esther 2:11 And Mordecai walked every day before the court of the women's house, to know how Esther did, and what should become of her.
When the Son of man came sexual immorality was at its highest, similar as today. The ending of the women’s court separating them from men had ended .
History repeats itself because sinners cannot and do not want to change. Only God can create a new spirit that will be raised on the last day
The woman was not to personally to counsel with men and vise versa.
That honor as on was reserved for them at home a rope of three strands is not easily broken . And deacons became the counselors working with the couples, like Moses reserved for the harder case (the Supreme Court). That is a qualification given to men as the husband of one wife. If divorced they lose the qualification.
So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said.And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.And they judged the people at all seasons: the hard causes they brought unto Moses, but every small matter they judged themselves Exo 18:24
The woman being silent is because she is not to judge men in their relationship struggles in a ceremonial setting. The same applies to men who are not assigned as deacons.
It is the ceremonial (shadow) setting as place where men and woman can meet to celebrate the unseen glory of God. Not a meat market reserved for the home.
It applies to mankind, the one creation.For it is a shame for women or men to speak by discussing personal matters in the church. It is reserved for the deacons they are repspnsible for church disapline as to whether or not they can be part of that cerimoinail law.
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 1Co 14:34
That reformation seems all but forgotten about in my experiences. Therefore I would think losing the intended value to be used a parable in respect to the period of Kings.
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure (parable)for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them “until” the time of reformation. Heb 9:8
The time period of Kings was used as a parable up until the reformation had come to an end. A new order of government was necessary when families gathered together under the authority of God’s words.
New ceremonial laws were introduced. Previous ceremonial laws like the separation of women from men called the court of the women were separated. Christianity brought them together lifting up elevatinf woman to her proper place as equal with man.. both under the same unseen authority.
It is shown below in a parable in the Old Testament as a way of preaching the gospel in repsect to the suffering of Christ beforehand. Mordecai to represent Christ, unseen,as our daily bread of His word and Ester represnts the chaste virgin bride of Christ.
Esther 2:11 And Mordecai walked every day before the court of the women's house, to know how Esther did, and what should become of her.
When the Son of man came sexual immorality was at its highest, similar as today. The ending of the women’s court separating them from men had ended .
History repeats itself because sinners cannot and do not want to change. Only God can create a new spirit that will be raised on the last day
The woman was not to personally to counsel with men and vise versa.
That honor as on was reserved for them at home a rope of three strands is not easily broken . And deacons became the counselors working with the couples, like Moses reserved for the harder case (the Supreme Court). That is a qualification given to men as the husband of one wife. If divorced they lose the qualification.
So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said.And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.And they judged the people at all seasons: the hard causes they brought unto Moses, but every small matter they judged themselves Exo 18:24
The woman being silent is because she is not to judge men in their relationship struggles in a ceremonial setting. The same applies to men who are not assigned as deacons.
It is the ceremonial (shadow) setting as place where men and woman can meet to celebrate the unseen glory of God. Not a meat market reserved for the home.
It applies to mankind, the one creation.For it is a shame for women or men to speak by discussing personal matters in the church. It is reserved for the deacons they are repspnsible for church disapline as to whether or not they can be part of that cerimoinail law.
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 1Co 14:34
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I've a question to think about...
Does one being submittant necessitate that the other be controlling?
In looking up whether I used the word 'submittant' in correct form [and if it even was an actual word] (a Latin sentence was given for example,
), I do like the additional example sentence offered (although it didn't even contain the term, it seem most appropriate to my question)....
The same gratuitousness inspires us to love and accept the wind, the sun and the clouds, even though we cannot control them. [https://glosbe.com/la/en/submittant]
Does one being submittant necessitate that the other be controlling?
In looking up whether I used the word 'submittant' in correct form [and if it even was an actual word] (a Latin sentence was given for example,
), I do like the additional example sentence offered (although it didn't even contain the term, it seem most appropriate to my question)....The same gratuitousness inspires us to love and accept the wind, the sun and the clouds, even though we cannot control them. [https://glosbe.com/la/en/submittant]
I don't believe that verse is talking about the kind of "pastor" we are discussing here.
I believe the term "pastor" has been reduced in our vernacular to be the same thing as a teacher/preacher. That is NOT the proper definition of a pastor. A pastor/elder/overseer is in a position of spiritual authority over an assembly of believers.... authority in the sense of watching out for the members' spiritual welfare. That does NOT leave them in the position of "boss", but more in the position of "shepherd/guide".
There are scriptural guidelines for being qualified to be an elder/bishop/pastor/overseer.. just as there are scriptural guidelines for men who are to be deacons... the "worker bees".
The use of the word "pastor" as anyone who preaches in a congregation is very misleading, and it has caused many, many people to revere the preacher, and to put him in some kind of authority role over the whole congregation. That is scripturally wrong.
I'm not saying that there are not "preacher/pastors" who are not qualified to be an elder/overseer/pastor, but having the gift of preaching does not automatically qualify you for that position.
I believe the term "pastor" has been reduced in our vernacular to be the same thing as a teacher/preacher. That is NOT the proper definition of a pastor. A pastor/elder/overseer is in a position of spiritual authority over an assembly of believers.... authority in the sense of watching out for the members' spiritual welfare. That does NOT leave them in the position of "boss", but more in the position of "shepherd/guide".
There are scriptural guidelines for being qualified to be an elder/bishop/pastor/overseer.. just as there are scriptural guidelines for men who are to be deacons... the "worker bees".
The use of the word "pastor" as anyone who preaches in a congregation is very misleading, and it has caused many, many people to revere the preacher, and to put him in some kind of authority role over the whole congregation. That is scripturally wrong.
I'm not saying that there are not "preacher/pastors" who are not qualified to be an elder/overseer/pastor, but having the gift of preaching does not automatically qualify you for that position.
That doesn't make sense. Men are NOT being asked to submit to the opposite sex. So you are saying that women (who are being asked to submit to men) have difficulties dealing with it. Where men (who are not being asked to submit to the other sex) can handle it better! Hardly a level playing field.
Much like, if my boss went out of town for an extended period of time, and left me "in charge", I would not assume dictatorial authority over the other workers. I would only be the one that is answerable for the things that happen while the boss is away. I would imagine that any issue that came up would be discussed among all the employees, but I would be the one to make the final decision....... based on what was discussed by everyone.
Here is a comparison to consult......
Heb 13:17
(ABP+) Comply withG3982 the onesG3588 leadingG2233 you,G1473 andG2532 give precedence!G5226 for theyG1473 G1063 are sleeplessG69 overG5228 G3588 your souls,G5590 G1473 forG5613 [2a reckoningG3056 1recompensing],G591 thatG2443 withG3326 joyG5479 they should do this,G3778 G4160 andG2532 notG3361 moaning;G4727 [3 would be unserviceableG255 1forG1063 4to youG1473 2this].G3778
(ASV) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them: for they watch in behalf of your souls, as they that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief: for this were unprofitable for you.
(CEV) Obey your leaders and do what they say. They are watching over you, and they must answer to God. So don't make them sad as they do their work. Make them happy. Otherwise, they won't be able to help you at all.
(Darby) Obey your leaders, and be submissive; for *they* watch over your souls as those that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not groaning, for this would be unprofitable for you.
(DRB) Obey your prelates and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls: that they may do this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.
(FDB) Obéissez à vos conducteurs et soyez soumis, car ils veillent pour vos âmes, comme ayant à rendre compte; afin qu'ils fassent cela avec joie, et non en gémissant, car cela ne vous serait pas profitable.
(FLS) Obéissez à vos conducteurs et ayez pour eux de la déférence, car ils veillent sur vos âmes comme devant en rendre compte; qu'il en soit ainsi, afin qu'ils le fassent avec joie, et non en gémissant, ce qui vous ne serait d'aucun avantage.
(HNT) שמעו אל־מנהיגיכם והכנעו מפניהם כי־שקדים הם על־נפשתיכם כעתידים לתת חשבון למען יעשו־זאת בשמחה ולא באנחה כי לא־להועיל זאת לכם׃
(INR) Ubbidite ai vostri conduttori e sottomettetevi a loro, perché essi vegliano per le vostre anime come chi deve renderne conto, affinché facciano questo con gioia e non sospirando; perché ciò non vi sarebbe di alcuna utilità.
(IRL) Ubbidite ai vostri conduttori e sottomettetevi a loro, perché essi vegliano per le vostre anime, come chi ha da renderne conto; affinché facciano questo con allegrezza e non sospirando; perché ciò non vi sarebbe d'alcun utile.
(ISV) Continue to obey your leaders and to be submissive to them, for they watch over your souls as those who will have to give a word of explanation. By doing this, you will be letting them carry out their duties joyfully, and not with grief, for that would be harmful for you.
(KJV) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
(KJV+) ObeyG3982 them that have the rule overG2233 you,G5216 andG2532 submitG5226 yourselves: forG1063 theyG846 watchG69 forG5228 yourG5216 souls,G5590 asG5613 they that must giveG591 account,G3056 thatG2443 they may doG4160 itG5124 withG3326 joy,G5479 andG2532 notG3361 with grief:G4727 forG1063 thatG5124 is unprofitableG255 for you.G5213
(ROB) Ascultaţi pe mai-marii voştri şi vă supuneţi lor, fiindcă ei priveghează pentru sufletele voastre, având să dea de ele seamă, ca să facă aceasta cu bucurie şi nu suspinând, căci aceasta nu v-ar fi de folos.
(SSE) Escuchad a vuestros pastores, y sujetaos a ellos; porque ellos velan por vuestras almas, como aquellos que han de dar la cuenta; para que lo hagan con alegría, y no gimiendo; porque esto no os es útil.
(TKK) Önderlerinizin sözünü dinleyin, onlara bağlı kalın. Çünkü onlar canlarınız için hesap verecek kişiler olarak sizi kollarlar. Onların sözünü dinleyin ki, görevlerini inleyerek değil -bunun size yararı olmaz- sevinçle yapsınlar.
(Vulgate) oboedite praepositis vestris et subiacete eis ipsi enim pervigilant quasi rationem pro animabus vestris reddituri ut cum gaudio hoc faciant et non gementes hoc enim non expedit vobis
(Webster) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
(WNT) Obey your leaders and be submissive to them. For they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to give account; that they may do this with joy and not with lamentation. For that would be of no advantage to you.
Heb 13:17
(ABP+) Comply withG3982 the onesG3588 leadingG2233 you,G1473 andG2532 give precedence!G5226 for theyG1473 G1063 are sleeplessG69 overG5228 G3588 your souls,G5590 G1473 forG5613 [2a reckoningG3056 1recompensing],G591 thatG2443 withG3326 joyG5479 they should do this,G3778 G4160 andG2532 notG3361 moaning;G4727 [3 would be unserviceableG255 1forG1063 4to youG1473 2this].G3778
(ASV) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them: for they watch in behalf of your souls, as they that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief: for this were unprofitable for you.
(CEV) Obey your leaders and do what they say. They are watching over you, and they must answer to God. So don't make them sad as they do their work. Make them happy. Otherwise, they won't be able to help you at all.
(Darby) Obey your leaders, and be submissive; for *they* watch over your souls as those that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not groaning, for this would be unprofitable for you.
(DRB) Obey your prelates and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls: that they may do this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.
(FDB) Obéissez à vos conducteurs et soyez soumis, car ils veillent pour vos âmes, comme ayant à rendre compte; afin qu'ils fassent cela avec joie, et non en gémissant, car cela ne vous serait pas profitable.
(FLS) Obéissez à vos conducteurs et ayez pour eux de la déférence, car ils veillent sur vos âmes comme devant en rendre compte; qu'il en soit ainsi, afin qu'ils le fassent avec joie, et non en gémissant, ce qui vous ne serait d'aucun avantage.
(HNT) שמעו אל־מנהיגיכם והכנעו מפניהם כי־שקדים הם על־נפשתיכם כעתידים לתת חשבון למען יעשו־זאת בשמחה ולא באנחה כי לא־להועיל זאת לכם׃
(INR) Ubbidite ai vostri conduttori e sottomettetevi a loro, perché essi vegliano per le vostre anime come chi deve renderne conto, affinché facciano questo con gioia e non sospirando; perché ciò non vi sarebbe di alcuna utilità.
(IRL) Ubbidite ai vostri conduttori e sottomettetevi a loro, perché essi vegliano per le vostre anime, come chi ha da renderne conto; affinché facciano questo con allegrezza e non sospirando; perché ciò non vi sarebbe d'alcun utile.
(ISV) Continue to obey your leaders and to be submissive to them, for they watch over your souls as those who will have to give a word of explanation. By doing this, you will be letting them carry out their duties joyfully, and not with grief, for that would be harmful for you.
(KJV) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
(KJV+) ObeyG3982 them that have the rule overG2233 you,G5216 andG2532 submitG5226 yourselves: forG1063 theyG846 watchG69 forG5228 yourG5216 souls,G5590 asG5613 they that must giveG591 account,G3056 thatG2443 they may doG4160 itG5124 withG3326 joy,G5479 andG2532 notG3361 with grief:G4727 forG1063 thatG5124 is unprofitableG255 for you.G5213
(ROB) Ascultaţi pe mai-marii voştri şi vă supuneţi lor, fiindcă ei priveghează pentru sufletele voastre, având să dea de ele seamă, ca să facă aceasta cu bucurie şi nu suspinând, căci aceasta nu v-ar fi de folos.
(SSE) Escuchad a vuestros pastores, y sujetaos a ellos; porque ellos velan por vuestras almas, como aquellos que han de dar la cuenta; para que lo hagan con alegría, y no gimiendo; porque esto no os es útil.
(TKK) Önderlerinizin sözünü dinleyin, onlara bağlı kalın. Çünkü onlar canlarınız için hesap verecek kişiler olarak sizi kollarlar. Onların sözünü dinleyin ki, görevlerini inleyerek değil -bunun size yararı olmaz- sevinçle yapsınlar.
(Vulgate) oboedite praepositis vestris et subiacete eis ipsi enim pervigilant quasi rationem pro animabus vestris reddituri ut cum gaudio hoc faciant et non gementes hoc enim non expedit vobis
(Webster) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
(WNT) Obey your leaders and be submissive to them. For they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to give account; that they may do this with joy and not with lamentation. For that would be of no advantage to you.
This law of obeying our leaders is in refernce to the law that Israel was to obey the High Priest, and after him, all Levitical priests.
If all will recall, when Paul was taken prisoner in Jerusalem, he contradicted the ruler who had him in custody, however when Paul realized he had back-talked the High Priest he apologized.
The rulers, leaders, prelates, etc. mentiond in Hebrews I am certain are those in charge of the assemblies, not any political leaders, for that is just nor of the Kingdom nor of our King.
If all will recall, when Paul was taken prisoner in Jerusalem, he contradicted the ruler who had him in custody, however when Paul realized he had back-talked the High Priest he apologized.
The rulers, leaders, prelates, etc. mentiond in Hebrews I am certain are those in charge of the assemblies, not any political leaders, for that is just nor of the Kingdom nor of our King.
Of course I think the sheep need to follow what the shepherd "tells" them... because he is in charge of their welfare.
The same way our shepherd/elder/overseer is in charge of our spiritual welfare.
Why would you say that sound doctrine is not well received these days? What leads you to that conclusion?
The same way our shepherd/elder/overseer is in charge of our spiritual welfare.
Why would you say that sound doctrine is not well received these days? What leads you to that conclusion?
A
Matthew 28:1-10
Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men. But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here, for He has risen, as He said. Come, see the place where He lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead, and behold, He is going before you to Galilee; there you will see Him. See, I have told you.”
8 So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell His disciples. 9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus said to them (the women), “Do not be afraid; go and tell My brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me.”
Mark 16:14-20
Afterward Jesus appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and He rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those (the women) who saw Him after He had risen.
Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men. But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here, for He has risen, as He said. Come, see the place where He lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead, and behold, He is going before you to Galilee; there you will see Him. See, I have told you.”
8 So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell His disciples. 9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus said to them (the women), “Do not be afraid; go and tell My brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me.”
Mark 16:14-20
Afterward Jesus appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and He rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those (the women) who saw Him after He had risen.
I've a question to think about...
Does one being submittant necessitate that the other be controlling?
In looking up whether I used the word 'submittant' in correct form [and if it even was an actual word] (a Latin sentence was given for example,), I do like the additional example sentence offered (although it didn't even contain the term, it seem most appropriate to my question)....
The same gratuitousness inspires us to love and accept the wind, the sun and the clouds, even though we cannot control them. [https://glosbe.com/la/en/submittant]
Does one being submittant necessitate that the other be controlling?
In looking up whether I used the word 'submittant' in correct form [and if it even was an actual word] (a Latin sentence was given for example,
), I do like the additional example sentence offered (although it didn't even contain the term, it seem most appropriate to my question)....The same gratuitousness inspires us to love and accept the wind, the sun and the clouds, even though we cannot control them. [https://glosbe.com/la/en/submittant]
Women "pastors" are teachers that tickle the ears.
Sodomite "pastors" tickle the ears.
Great stuff in the universalist churches where you can believe anything as long as you believe something.
God does not anoint women to pastor churches. God has always appointed men to the responsibility for the family in Spiritual matters which translates directly to the church.
When women take responsibility for these things it is a shame to the men.
Folks today are very accommodating to every wind of doctrine. Fits right in with the thread that CS1 has on the state of the church.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Sodomite "pastors" tickle the ears.
Great stuff in the universalist churches where you can believe anything as long as you believe something.
God does not anoint women to pastor churches. God has always appointed men to the responsibility for the family in Spiritual matters which translates directly to the church.
When women take responsibility for these things it is a shame to the men.
Folks today are very accommodating to every wind of doctrine. Fits right in with the thread that CS1 has on the state of the church.
For the cause of Christ
Roger