Armstrongites, Anti-Trinitarians, Cultists, anti-holiday Christians and Don Quixote

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Nov 30, 2012
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#61
Actually the celebration of Jesus birth was done at least in the 110s AD. They are mentioned by historians and the ECF. However, depending on the region and community was when it was celebrated. Antioch celebrated in the Summer, Lyons celebrated in winter, etc.

However, the point is that as early as twenty years after the writing of the Book of Revelation, Christians celebrated a holiday centered on the birth of Christ.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,354
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#62
I was brought up observing Christmas. But we did not believe in Santa Claus,we knew it was to honor the birth of Christ.The same with Easter,no Easter bunny,it was the death of Christ. I believe if it is celebrated in that fashion there is nothing wrong with it.Whether you celebrate it now or some other day there is no difference.We dont know the exact day.

The other night I went to a church we visit sometimes,we have our own home church.They had the church beautifully decorated. They had a choir that sang Christmas carols and a few that shared small testimonies/preached. It was brought down to an alter call for those who needed to respond to the message. It ended with the song "Let there Be Peace on Earth". And each of us was thinking of what is happening in the world today. The entire crowd was moved by the program.The entire focus was on Christ and His coming and saving a lost world.How this could be against God? How could this be wrong? I agree people can take Christmas in a material direction.But when observed in the way I mentioned it honors Christ. You are free to not observe the holiday but you should not interfere or condemn people who do.
amen I agree with you kaylagrl 100% :) If one would do a historical study on how different Christmas observances are done around the world , you will see the birth Jesus as the reason most of the time.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#63
At first glance, you may think that the first four items on the list in the heading are unlike the last one.

The story of Don Quixote is hilarious. An old man with poor vision imagines that windmills are giants. Perceiving the imminent danger, he charges them on his steed, lunging forward with his lance, ready to do serious battle.

This story makes us laugh at the naivete and foolishness of the old man. However, do we engage in similar antics as Christians? Are we fighting imaginary enemies due to our poor spiritual vision, which is myopic and ill-informed?

As a former Armstrongite, I believed the teachings of Herbert Armstrong. In essence, Herbert Armstrong claimed that he was commissioned by God to restore "true Christianity" to the world. He denied the Christianity of anyone outside of his organization, declaring them to be a "counterfeit Christianity" preaching a "false gospel" and that its ministers were "ministers of Satan".

Some of the issues he claimed made organized Christianity false included non-observance of the Saturday Sabbath, festivals, and clean/unclean meat laws, their view of the nature of God (Trinitarianism), and observance of worldly holidays (Christmas and Easter).

His contempt for other Christians and attacks upon them were obvious, calling them "dumb sheep" headed to the slaughter on his television program.

I was 22 years old and wasn't brought up in a good environment to learn sound Christian doctrine (my mother was an Armstrongite), so I cut myself some slack on getting involved in it, and funding Armstrong's foolish attacks upon Christianity. I have since repented of my ignorance and intolerance of orthodox Christianity.

I have little doubt that some individuals who promote false teachings know that they are in error, but perpetuate their errors for financial gain or other reasons. They are destined for eternal punishment unless they repent.

For the rest, I encourage you to examine whether you, like Don Quixote, are fighting an imaginary enemy. It will be a sad thing if you spend the rest of your life following nonsense, and attacking brothers in Christ that you perceive as enemies, when you can spend it reaching others with the real gospel...about how the unique God-man came to die on a cross for our sins, and how others can be forgiven for their sins through his perfect sacrifice.

For anti-Trinitarians, I recommend the book "Forgotten Trinity" by James White.

For those who believe that observing Sabbath and Holy Days are a requirement of salvation, and that non-observers are not Christians, I recommend "Sabbath in Christ" by Dale Ratzlaff.

None of these remarks are meant for my friends who observe the Sabbath, annual festivals, or clean/unclean meat laws but don't claim observance is required for salvation in any way.

Yes, you have to be very careful of falling into a cult. The Bible says in Heb. we are appointed once to die and then the judgement. In Luke the rich man did not get a second chance at salvation. If we could get a second chance that would be the verse that would be the proof. But he wasn't saved,he didnt get another chance. The Bible doesn't teach that and anyone who does is guilty of false teaching themselves. Its a lie and very dangerous to make people think they get a second chance after death. 100% wrong. Anyone teaching or who has taught this is a false teacher. And we all know what the Bible says about that.You are very right to have pulled away from that teaching.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#64
What I find interesting is the early church created these holidays to combat paganism . many are very legistic in the Christmas tree & Easter observances. they do not take into concideration tradtions that are not in the bible but do provide symbolism , and memorial . they are not in the bible but they are not wrong in doing them.
the early church added these to make Christianity more pagan, not to fight paganism, rome was pagan so what better way to get em to join. it was one of the 1st steps in watering down our church and taking it away from what was founded by Jesus and the 12.
 

eternallife7

Senior Member
May 19, 2015
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#65
Great points. Exalting and observing any shadow takes away from the glory of Christ. Recognizing them as shadows that were done away with magnifies his glory not only because we focus solely on Christ, but also because it witnesses of GOD's incredible power to foretell things in this way.
I would add that while they were giving to Israel only at first now according to 1 Timothy 1 :9 now they are for the ungodly.
 

epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
660
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#66
the early church added these to make Christianity more pagan, not to fight paganism, rome was pagan so what better way to get em to join. it was one of the 1st steps in watering down our church and taking it away from what was founded by Jesus and the 12.
Pagan Rome had killed the first 30 Popes, possibly the first 50, so making Christianity more pagan is a senseless charge without a shred of evidence. The persecution from pagan Rome for 300 years, in varying intensities in various locations, was brutal. These facts are easily verified.

The Winter Solstice was NOT a Roman Civil holiday until the late 3rd Century AD. The Emperor Aurelian made December 25th a civil holiday (273 AD) because the Christians were already using it to celebrate the Birth of Jesus and he was trying to detract from the Christian celebration!

None of the Sun Cults used December 25th before then. (any farmer will tell you there is no fixed date for a harvest) It appears that the Winter Solstice was originally a CHRISTIAN feast that the pagans tried to paganize, not the other way around.
 
Nov 25, 2014
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#67
Show us in the Bible where anyone taught or celebrated christmas or easter, or ANY holiday not prescribed by God. Or any Scriptural example of God's people reclaiming a pagan holiday or tradition as their own.
Okay...so this argument is a false argument because there are all kinds of practices that Christians engage in that are not found in the scripture for a variety of reasons.

For example, "Show me in the bible where they projected lyrics onto a screen so people could sing."
Umm...it's not in there because they'd not been invented.

The reason that there's no record of Easter or Christmas in the bible is because the vast majority of the events in the bible are PRE-CHRISTIAN. Well then, why didn't the early church celebrate Easter and Christmas. Two reasons: The early church was originally Jewish converts engaging with Hebrew practices AND (when non-Jews were converted) they were a church in exile. The only "celebration" mentioned in regard to the early church was that of Communion/Eucharist/the Lord's Supper.

However, there IS evidence in the NT that Christian practices SUBSUMED pagan practices...particularly in the area of eating meat from idols. Paul says that if someone can eat meat from idols, then they should. If someone cannnot, they should not. The logic behind EATING meat from idols is that these idols don't really exist, so it is not (inherently) harmful for Christians to eat meat dedicated to non-existent gods.

Well, guess what...the same pagan gods don't exist regarding the holidays either. So, if a Christian can (in good faith) celebrate Christmas (the birth of Jesus) and Easter (the death and resurrection of Jesus)...go for it. Those who cannot, should not.

Personally, I've never understood why Christians who believe in a God who was powerful enough to raise Christ from the dead...in a God gracious enough to provide us the Holy Spirit within us...why these believers would be fearful of non-existent pagan creations.

Some people are under the impression that in order to really know Jesus we have to style our worship like the early church--in catacombs, with no instruments, done secretly, common ownership of all goods....oh wait...we want to own our own stuff. Yeah, even the people who dabble in the "we need to be like the early church" aren't committed to going all the way in that regard. We like our modern, Western creature comforts, but we want to invent some kind of spiritual hoops to go through so we can feel like we're really serving God. The early church worshiped the way they did because there was no other option.