Attack of the Judaizers

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BradC

Guest
Even according to the law any foreigner who embraced the God of the Jews became a Jew. Do you think just because people drifted away from the faith of Abraham we do not worship the same God? That is perverse thinking. All who come to Jesus worship the God of Abraham,. Am I correct or shall I become a Messianic Jew? We already are completed Jews....
We as NT believers are not to procalim the gospel or the law of Moses but we are to proclaim the gospel and doctrine of Christ who Moses did testify should come. Just as John the baptist baptized unto repentance for the remission of sins, we now baptize in the name of Christ who put away sin and through his blood we have remission of sins. The law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. I believed in the cross as a Gentile and I still am a believing Gentile hid with Christ in God and built together with others who have believed both Jew and Gentile. The law is good and holy because it reveals sin but has no power to transform the sinner. If we conform to the law in the flesh without the Spirit we abide in deadness of the letter. We have been given the Spirit that we might abide in the words of Christ.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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Tell us of all the NT writers and their NT writings, who had the Spirit and were all Jews except for perhaps Luke, how many of them made much mention of Moses.
My post was in regard to present day.

Jewish people of today reject the Messiah and must still hold to the Old for authority.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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If you love Jesus you will obey Him.


We as NT believers are not to procalim the gospel or the law of Moses but we are to proclaim the gospel and doctrine of Christ who Moses did testify should come. Just as John the baptist baptized unto repentance for the remission of sins, we now baptize in the name of Christ who put away sin and through his blood we have remission of sins. The law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. I believed in the cross as a Gentile and I still am a believing Gentile hid with Christ in God and built together with others who have believed both Jew and Gentile. The law is good and holy because it reveals sin but has no power to transform the sinner. If we conform to the law in the flesh without the Spirit we abide in deadness of the letter. We have been given the Spirit that we might abide in the words of Christ.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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Allow me to repeat a paragraph from posts #520. Should we not proclaim the spiritual truth of the OT law since it is the foundation of what our Savior fulfilled? Why downgrade what is fulfilled? By depleting what is fulfilled depletes the fulfillment.

I think this impasse has everything to do with concentrating on the physical aspects of the Old Testament rather than the spiritual aspects. I have tried my best to define spiritual aspects as most others have done, but the conversations always divert back to physical rhetoric, and the spiritual understanding is lost. That is exactly opposite of the fulfillment of Jesus Christ. I would suggest that it is easy to see one’s intention when propagating condemnation of the physical yet bringing it up time after time for the purpose of continuing arguments.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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The word, gentile is synonomous with pagan or nations to the Jews. So anyone who believes he believes Yeshua, the King of the Jews and is not of His nation is confused, at best. After all, He is King of the Jews, and all nations will come to bow before His feet. Praise Yeshua! amen.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,087
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If you love Jesus you will obey Him.
That is the heart of it my friend.

Some of us believe Sabbath is part of this loving obedience, others do not.

Our Faithfulness will not be decided by each other, that we should remember.

Many will not bow to statues or take GOD's name in Vain.. the Sabbath is among those Commands.

The One Given Authority declared all should be kept and taught.. that is my belief.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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New Testament believer? What is this to you? It sounds as though the Old Testament is completely ignored.

I wonder what place those believers from the time of Yeshua until the time of the pubishing of the gospels and eqpstles are considered as occupying?

The New Testament is a witness of all that was hidden to those Jews who did not believe written down in the Old Testamen. The Old Testament foretells all that is revealed in the New Testament, that is, to those from whom the veil of Moses has been removed.

Either one believes God's Word or he does not, but to rise to the position of editor of God's Word is a scary place to be.



We as NT believers are not to procalim the gospel or the law of Moses but we are to proclaim the gospel and doctrine of Christ who Moses did testify should come. Just as John the baptist baptized unto repentance for the remission of sins, we now baptize in the name of Christ who put away sin and through his blood we have remission of sins. The law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. I believed in the cross as a Gentile and I still am a believing Gentile hid with Christ in God and built together with others who have believed both Jew and Gentile. The law is good and holy because it reveals sin but has no power to transform the sinner. If we conform to the law in the flesh without the Spirit we abide in deadness of the letter. We have been given the Spirit that we might abide in the words of Christ.
 
C

chubbena

Guest
My post was in regard to present day.

Jewish people of today reject the Messiah and must still hold to the Old for authority.
If only they are but many I encountered are teaching thing far different from what we think they hold on to i.e. OT. For example Passover Seder and Kosher - where did the OT teach such complicated arrangements?
They have emphasized the OT faith in the wrong spot.
Many Christians saw and thought that's OT teaching and thus went the other extreme.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
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We as NT believers are not to procalim the gospel or the law of Moses but we are to proclaim the gospel and doctrine of Christ who Moses did testify should come. Just as John the baptist baptized unto repentance for the remission of sins, we now baptize in the name of Christ who put away sin and through his blood we have remission of sins. The law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. I believed in the cross as a Gentile and I still am a believing Gentile hid with Christ in God and built together with others who have believed both Jew and Gentile. The law is good and holy because it reveals sin but has no power to transform the sinner. If we conform to the law in the flesh without the Spirit we abide in deadness of the letter. We have been given the Spirit that we might abide in the words of Christ.
And yet Jesus Christ said...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

The Gospel and the Law are inextricably bound together.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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What you refer to is rabbinical teachings or rabbinical judaism, and this is to be avoided at all costs. This is what our Lord contended with in dealing with the Pharisees. Today's Pharisees are the religious leaders of today. Many are quite honest and try their best to convey the Word in truth, while others are mostly concerned with their theology's dogmas. You see many coming here daily.

If only they are but many I encountered are teaching thing far different from what we think they hold on to i.e. OT. For example Passover Seder and Kosher - where did the OT teach such complicated arrangements?
They have emphasized the OT faith in the wrong spot.
Many Christians saw and thought that's OT teaching and thus went the other extreme.
 
B

BradC

Guest
New Testament believer? What is this to you? It sounds as though the Old Testament is completely ignored.

I wonder what place those believers from the time of Yeshua until the time of the pubishing of the gospels and eqpstles are considered as occupying?

The New Testament is a witness of all that was hidden to those Jews who did not believe written down in the Old Testamen. The Old Testament foretells all that is revealed in the New Testament, that is, to those from whom the veil of Moses has been removed.

Either one believes God's Word or he does not, but to rise to the position of editor of God's Word is a scary place to be.
The mysteries of Christ and the church were not written or foretold in the OT scriptures. These mysteries were by in large revealed to the apostle Paul for the church which was for the believing Jew and Gentile. The blood and body of Christ is the communion of the NT believer and was never partaken of until Christ administered this to his disciple just prior to the cross (eat my flesh and drink my blood). There was no life for the NT believer without it. The Jews did not have this communion under the law of Moses and many were offended by the very thought of it.

If this was available to them prior to the cross, you need to show me and make it plain if possible. The communion we have is far superior to that of the Israelite under the law of Moses or what was accomplished by the high priest in the holy of holies. The Holy Spirit indwells every NT believer and it is the Spirit that makes this communion possible. This communion is eternal redemption that was obtained for us and we received it by faith through the administration of the Spirit and not according to the letter of the law. We have access to the holy of holies by the blood of Christ as NT believers. He is our high priest who gives us access for communion with the living God.
 
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
107
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The mysteries of Christ and the church were not written or foretold in the OT scriptures. These mysteries were by in large revealed to the apostle Paul for the church which was for the believing Jew and Gentile. The blood and body of Christ is the communion of the NT believer and was never partaken of until Christ administered this to his disciple just prior to the cross (eat my flesh and drink my blood). There was no life for the NT believer without it. The Jews did not have this communion under the law of Moses and many were offended by the very thought of it.

If this was available to them prior to the cross, you need to show me and make it plain if possible. The communion we have is far superior to that of the Israelite under the law of Moses or what was accomplished by the high priest in the holy of holies. The Holy Spirit indwells every NT believer and it is the Spirit that makes this communion possible. This communion is eternal redemption that was obtained for us and we received it by faith through the administration of the Spirit and not according to the letter of the law. We have access to the holy of holies by the blood of Christ as NT believers. He is our high priest who gives us access for communion with the living God.
There are seven major covenants in scripture. Six have been fulfilled, and the seventh is prophesied giving us an expected hope that the last promise will come to pass simply because the previous six promises are all true. Lets’ look back to what God has done, and know what He will do.


1. Adam=God giving sustenance and authority over land and animals to mankind. This is the first time in the Bible that blood was shed for the atonement/covering of the sinful flesh
2. Noah=The promise not to destroy the faithful, and never again destroy the earth with water depicted with a rainbow
3. Abraham=the promise of making a nation for an example to all the world
4. Moses=giving instructions to learn the will of God distinguishing, and identifying transgression, eventually led to the promised land and the sandal covenant
5. David=the promise of an everlasting kingdom through his lineage of Judah called the salt covenant, salt being a preservative
6. Jesus=the promise for the remission of transgression/iniquity/sins completing the promise to David, the Priesthood being through Judah, transferred on the mount of transfiguration. I believe that Jesus is number 6 in this sequence of events because He became flesh and dwelt among us as John chapter 1 states.
7. Ephraim and Judah as one nation=Ephraim is classified as the entire world of Gentiles being connected with the dispersion of the 10 tribes captured by the Assyrian Empire never to return to the promised land until the final judgment described in Revelation. Judah returned in 1948 as the Jews, and will be united with Ephraim.

Ezekiel 37:16-23 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: (Gentiles)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

This is a complete picture of the history of God’s faithfulness, judgments, and promises from beginning to end. In essence we see seven events, one built upon another, completing God’s divine plan that I would classify as the seven spirits of God. I believe this can be all wrapped together in what the true church should be, and then including the seven churches in the first part of the book of Revelation. The church definitely should be sen today as very comparable to the covenants God has issued to mankind since the beginning of time


1. The church has been given authority,
2. and is promised protection due to being faithful.

3.They are promised increase when justified by faith,
4. and they are to conduct themselves with integrity that glorifies God.

5. They will be completely beautiful as the betrothed bride of Christ.

6. The Groom knocks on the heart's door in preparation for the marriage, (Revelation 3:20)
7. and faithfully prepares a place for her, and with joy receives her for Himself.
 
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john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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7. Ephraim and Judah as one nation=Ephraim is classified as the entire world of Gentiles being connected with the dispersion of the 10 tribes captured by the Assyrian Empire never to return to the promised land until the final judgment described in Revelation. Judah returned in 1948 as the Jews, and will be united with Ephraim.
Ephraim has never represented the Gentiles. Ephraim represents the northern tribes of Israel.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,257
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Apparently you do not know the teachings fromthe prophets, the writings and Moses. It is also evident you are not well versed in the New Testament. If you belong to Paul, you should hear what he has to say about this. I will learn from Paul any time, but when it comes to the bottom line, I look to Jesus Christ.

The mysteries of Christ and the church were not written or foretold in the OT scriptures. These mysteries were by in large revealed to the apostle Paul for the church which was for the believing Jew and Gentile. The blood and body of Christ is the communion of the NT believer and was never partaken of until Christ administered this to his disciple just prior to the cross (eat my flesh and drink my blood). There was no life for the NT believer without it. The Jews did not have this communion under the law of Moses and many were offended by the very thought of it.

If this was available to them prior to the cross, you need to show me and make it plain if possible. The communion we have is far superior to that of the Israelite under the law of Moses or what was accomplished by the high priest in the holy of holies. The Holy Spirit indwells every NT believer and it is the Spirit that makes this communion possible. This communion is eternal redemption that was obtained for us and we received it by faith through the administration of the Spirit and not according to the letter of the law. We have access to the holy of holies by the blood of Christ as NT believers. He is our high priest who gives us access for communion with the living God.
 
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
107
0
Ephraim has never represented the Gentiles. Ephraim represents the northern tribes of Israel.
Ephraim represent Christians.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Romans 11:25-27 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Reverting again to Paul's statement about the 'full number of the Gentiles' coming in, what did Paul mean? Did he mean 'coming in' to the Church? No! He was speaking about ISRAEL. He was speaking about ABRAHAM'S OFFSPRING, the 12 tribes of Israel.

The fullness of the Gentiles
 
B

BradC

Guest
Apparently you do not know the teachings fromthe prophets, the writings and Moses. It is also evident you are not well versed in the New Testament. If you belong to Paul, you should hear what he has to say about this. I will learn from Paul any time, but when it comes to the bottom line, I look to Jesus Christ.
Show me one teaching or prophesy from Moses or any of the OT prophets that foretold of the mystery of Christ and the church.
 
B

BradC

Guest
And yet Jesus Christ said...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

The Gospel and the Law are inextricably bound together.
The law was that school teacher that lead to Christ, who fulfilled the law as the one who they were to be lead to. The law has no power to impart eternal life. The law cannot forgive or remove sin. The law cannot provide communion for the believer or justify him. The law cannot make a man righteous. The only thing the law can do, which was the purpose it was given, is to make sin exceedingly sinful so that man would be lead to Christ. When sin abounded because of transgression, grace abounded much more that we might have life through Christ.

The law was weak through the flesh, but God sending his Son in the likeness of sinful flesh condemned sin in his flesh. The law condemned the person for transgressions but Christ condemned the sin the law revealed with his own flesh on the cross. This is why we are not under the law but under grace because Christ condemned sin in his flesh. The Spirit now convicts the heart of sin above what the law could ever do. Any righteousness that God would impute or impart to the believer is not based upon the letter of the law but upon the Spirit of life.
 
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
107
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The law was that school teacher that lead to Christ, who fulfilled the law as the one who they were to be lead to. The law has no power to impart eternal life. The law cannot forgive or remove sin. The law cannot provide communion for the believer or justify him. The law cannot make a man righteous. The only thing the law can do, which was the purpose it was given, is to make sin exceedingly sinful so that man would be lead to Christ. When sin abounded because of transgression, grace abounded much more that we might have life through Christ.

The law was weak through the flesh, but God sending his Son in the likeness of sinful flesh condemned sin in his flesh. The law condemned the person for transgressions but Christ condemned the sin the law revealed with his own flesh on the cross. This is why we are not under the law but under grace because Christ condemned sin in his flesh. The Spirit now convicts the heart of sin above what the law could ever do. Any righteousness that God would impute or impart to the believer is not based upon the letter of the law but upon the Spirit of life.

I agree with everything you said, but I have 2 rhetorical questions. If the law was our schoolmaster, and we fail to understand it in the way it was originally intended, what tool do we now use to lead non believers to Christ since the schoolmaster is no longer needed because we have faith? I see this as a conundrum of sorts. By neglecting the schoolmaster are we propagating false conversions using a different way than what God has given to advance His Kingdom?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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You may begin with the Psalms. then look linto the Proverbs. Again, Zechariah. Now look at what Yahweh said to Abraham about his descendants possessing the Gate of their enemies. When finished with these, read the Old testament, Jesus is everywhere there, that is if the veil of Moses is not blinding the reader.

Psalm 22 has the story of the crucifixion of Yeshua.

Psalm 2 asks us to kiss the Son.

In Proverbs we are asked Who has ascended to heaven and more asking, what is His name and What is His Son's name if you can tell me?

Yeshua is mentioned by name in Zechariah 3, only it is an older form of His name, it is the same name. In this chapter He accepts the mission given to Him to save mankind from His sins, in one day.

I am not going to give you everything because you come in here telling folks what to read not having learned the entire Word, and this my friend is frowned upon in the Proverbs' wisdom.





Show me one teaching or prophesy from Moses or any of the OT prophets that foretold of the mystery of Christ and the church.