Baptism: is it required to be baptized in water?

[DJ2]

Water represents the cleaning action of the gospel To be born of water and the spirit is to be born by the Spirit that does work of cleansing . Living or moving waters to include rivers is used that way through out scripture. It describes a living faith.

You may think the "water" spoken to Nicodemus in John 3:15 is a metaphor for "rivers of living waters", others want to believe it is amniotic fluid. But the verbiage is neither. Jesus is not telling a parable or offering insight into natural human childbirth, he is speaking literally. This is why the faith alone regeneration theology groups come up with such nonsense filled theories.

 

[Truthcomber]

If I am understanding you correctly, you are implying that a non-physical baptism (Holy Spirit) is the point/moment of the forgiveness of sins and not water baptism. Is this correct?

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Comment: Do we actually have literal water flow from our belly? The next verse answers this question. No, it is the spirit of God with the resurrected soul of Christ one with it. Now back to verse 38: what does belly mean? Is it a literal belly? Let’s see.
Please click on the two-immediate links below.

John 7:38 Interlinear: he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'
Strong's Greek: 2836. κοιλία (koilia) -- belly

The best choice for G2836 would be #5 as so stated below.

Definition 5. in imitation of the Hebrew בֶּטֶן, tropically, the innermost part of a man, the soul, heart, as the seat of thought, feeling, choice (Job 15:35; Job 32:18 (the Sept. γαστήρ); Proverbs 18:8 (the Sept. ψυχή); (the Sept. σπλάγχνα); Habakkuk 3:16; Sir. 19:12 Sir. 51:21): John 7:38.

Verse 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy spirit was not yet; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Comment: We must perceive these verses with spiritual eyes and not rely on our own intellect but on Christ himself to teach us (1 Cor 2:14, Matt 13:9-11). The bible is full of words and teaching that are symbolic in nature. Look at the book of revelation for example.

Ezk 36:26 A new heart (soul) also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you in : and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.(soul of the Messiah):

Comment: In light of the rest of the scriptures quoted and will be quoted, the new heart or spirit of flesh is that of the Messiah after his resurrection and ascension.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life…6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,… 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin…8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:…5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:…9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Comment: Cleaning and growth is a continual process. When we sin, we can be forgiven because we can apply the once and eternal sacrifice of the Messiah to wash away our sins. It then is imputed that we had never sinned. This process starts with the baptism of the spirit. Water baptism is only symbolic of this.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, whereby (G1909) all have sinned:

1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Comment: Because of Adam’s sin, death is passed on to all men. Christ paid the penalty for Adam’s sin and thus we can be freed from death. We also can be forgiven of our sins because of Christ’s sacrifice (

Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Eccl 31:9 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath (soul); so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man (after the resurrection and ascension of the Messiah and those with his spirit in them) that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Comment: The prophets and saints in the OT had not received Christ’s spirit (soul) as one with the holy spirit (John 7:39 above). Therefore, their souls rested in the earth. The holy spirit with their higher mind etched in it went back to God who gave it (Eccl 12:7, Mark 12:26-27, Rom 4:17)).

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Comment: After Christ’s ascension, there is the additional of spiritual resurrection of the soul for both the OT and NT saints (Matt 5:25, John 11:25-26).

The last phase is the resurrection of the body.

 

[DJ2]

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Comment: Do we actually have literal water flow from our belly? The next verse answers this question. No, it is the spirit of God with the resurrected soul of Christ one with it. Now back to verse 38: what does belly mean? Is it a literal belly? Let’s see.
Please click on the two-immediate links below.

John 7:38 Interlinear: he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'
Strong's Greek: 2836. κοιλία (koilia) -- belly

The best choice for G2836 would be #5 as so stated below.

Definition 5. in imitation of the Hebrew בֶּטֶן, tropically, the innermost part of a man, the soul, heart, as the seat of thought, feeling, choice (Job 15:35; Job 32:18 (the Sept. γαστήρ); Proverbs 18:8 (the Sept. ψυχή); (the Sept. σπλάγχνα); Habakkuk 3:16; Sir. 19:12 Sir. 51:21): John 7:38.

Verse 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy spirit was not yet; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Comment: We must perceive these verses with spiritual eyes and not rely on our own intellect but on Christ himself to teach us (1 Cor 2:14, Matt 13:9-11). The bible is full of words and teaching that are symbolic in nature. Look at the book of revelation for example.

Ezk 36:26 A new heart (soul) also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you in : and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.(soul of the Messiah):

Comment: In light of the rest of the scriptures quoted and will be quoted, the new heart or spirit of flesh is that of the Messiah after his resurrection and ascension.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life…6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,… 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin…8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:…5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:…9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Comment: Cleaning and growth is a continual process. When we sin, we can be forgiven because we can apply the once and eternal sacrifice of the Messiah to wash away our sins. It then is imputed that we had never sinned. This process starts with the baptism of the spirit. Water baptism is only symbolic of this.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, whereby (G1909) all have sinned:

1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Comment: Because of Adam’s sin, death is passed on to all men. Christ paid the penalty for Adam’s sin and thus we can be freed from death. We also can be forgiven of our sins because of Christ’s sacrifice (

Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Eccl 31:9 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath (soul); so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man (after the resurrection and ascension of the Messiah and those with his spirit in them) that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Comment: The prophets and saints in the OT had not received Christ’s spirit (soul) as one with the holy spirit (John 7:39 above). Therefore, their souls rested in the earth. The holy spirit with their higher mind etched in it went back to God who gave it (Eccl 12:7, Mark 12:26-27, Rom 4:17)).

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Comment: After Christ’s ascension, there is the additional of spiritual resurrection of the soul for both the OT and NT saints (Matt 5:25, John 11:25-26).

The last phase is the resurrection of the body.

​I asked a simple yes or no question and this is your reply??

 

[Truthcomber]

If I am understanding you correctly, you are implying that a non-physical baptism (Holy Spirit) is the point/moment of the forgiveness of sins and not water baptism. Is this correct?

yes it is. The explanation is in my next post

 

[Truthcomber]

Hi All,

The whole point of my posts 899 and 902 is to show that water baptism is not an absolute requirement for one to be resurrected into life and that both the saints and prophets of the OT and NT benefit form Christ’s resurrection from the death and ascension into heaven. The OT saints and prophets did not get baptized with water. Why, because Christ had not been crucified and resurrected from the dead during their time and the New covenant was not yet establish. That’s why the baptism of John was not indicative of having received the holy spirit as one with the soul of Christ. The rituals of water baptism and the last supper celebration point back to the events that cause us to receive our salvation. Water baptism is done once as an outward sign of being married to the new covenant through Christ, and the last supper points back to Christ’s sacrifice to continually cleanest us from sin and its consequent death. Both are ceremonial acts of obedience and are done if possible. It is the blood of the Lamb that cleanest us from sin and not water.

Heb 10:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called (both OT and NT saints) might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Comment: Both the saints and the prophets of old are washed by the blood of Christ and not by water.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

[preston39]

Hi All,

The whole point of my posts 899 and 902 is to show that water baptism is not an absolute requirement for one to be resurrected into life and that both the saints and prophets of the OT and NT benefit form Christ’s resurrection from the death and ascension into heaven. The OT saints and prophets did not get baptized with water. Why, because Christ had not been crucified and resurrected from the dead during their time and the New covenant was not yet establish. That’s why the baptism of John was not indicative of having received the holy spirit as one with the soul of Christ. The rituals of water baptism and the last supper celebration point back to the events that cause us to receive our salvation. Water baptism is done once as an outward sign of being married to the new covenant through Christ, and the last supper points back to Christ’s sacrifice to continually cleanest us from sin and its consequent death. Both are ceremonial acts of obedience and are done if possible. It is the blood of the Lamb that cleanest us from sin and not water.

Heb 10:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called (both OT and NT saints) might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Comment: Both the saints and the prophets of old are washed by the blood of Christ and not by water.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

T....,

You are wrong. But, you must be convinced with scriptures.

Therefore, you have a perfect challenge here; you should post each reference of baptism in The Bible and explain why they do not render your conclusion void.

You want to take that challenge?...I will list them for you....if you would like.

 

[DiscipleDave]

This came up in another thread and I didn't want to move that thread off topic so I started another.

Is it required to be baptized in water?

Personally, I do not believe it is required.

John the Baptist, the greatest prophet to ever live, plainly taught us "I indeed baptize you with water, but He that is coming after me, shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with Fire" So you tell me which baptism is for Salvation? and which one we should do if we are able to do so, even as we should feed the hungry, cloth the naked, help the needy, Things we should do, but not required to do for Salvation. There is ONE Baptism, which one do you think that is for Salvation?

Water baptism is symbolic.
Holy Ghost baptism is when your heart is changed, you are no longer the same person that you use to be prior to being Holy Ghost baptized.

Did Jesus have to get water baptized to be SAVED? NO, but He was able to do it, to fulfill all righteousness, so He did. Therefore we should do likewise, if you are able to get water baptized, then you should do it. But it is NOT required for one to be Saved.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[sharii]

Yes. I was never baptized with water, but I KNOW,and FEEL the spirit, the Comforter, guiding me and helping me to understand spiritual things
just like Jesus promised us.

 

[sharii]

That is, yes, I agree with Disciple Dave.....we do not need to be baptized with water,it is sufficient to baptized with the Holy Spirit, the Comforter.

 

[Katy-follower]

Pretty sure most of the scriptures have come up already, like the 2 births mentioned in John 3 (flesh versus Spirit), which has nothing to do with water baptism.

Here's one I thought of. So where is the mention of water baptism here, because Paul does not mention it at all...


1 Cor 15:1-11:

"Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed"

 

[Katy-follower]

Galatians 1:8-10: "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ"

 

[Truthcomber]

John the Baptist, the greatest prophet to ever live, plainly taught us "I indeed baptize you with water, but He that is coming after me, shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with Fire" So you tell me which baptism is for Salvation? and which one we should do if we are able to do so, even as we should feed the hungry, cloth the naked, help the needy, Things we should do, but not required to do for Salvation. There is ONE Baptism, which one do you think that is for Salvation?

Water baptism is symbolic.
Holy Ghost baptism is when your heart is changed, you are no longer the same person that you use to be prior to being Holy Ghost baptized.

Did Jesus have to get water baptized to be SAVED? NO, but He was able to do it, to fulfill all righteousness, so He did. Therefore we should do likewise, if you are able to get water baptized, then you should do it. But it is NOT required for one to be Saved.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

your post is right on the mark

 

[Truthcomber]

T....,

You are wrong. But, you must be convinced with scriptures.

Therefore, you have a perfect challenge here; you should post each reference of baptism in The Bible and explain why they do not render your conclusion void.

You want to take that challenge?...I will list them for you....if you would like.

There is enough posts and information on this thread to go around. If you think I am wrong, show me.

 

[preston39]

Absolutely!

m...,

Again....... startled.

Why were you baptized all the while advocating against baptism?

 

[notuptome]

m...,

Again....... startled.

Why were you baptized all the while advocating against baptism?

Arise from your slumber. Hear that water baptism is not what we advocate against. The necessity of water baptism to be saved is what is being contested.

You should receive water baptism as part of your witness for Christ. You should also endeavor the witness to the lost that they should come to a saving knowledge of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[preston39]

Arise from your slumber. Hear that water baptism is not what we advocate against. The necessity of water baptism to be saved is what is being contested.

You should receive water baptism as part of your witness for Christ. You should also endeavor the witness to the lost that they should come to a saving knowledge of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

N...,

Scripture does not allow you to have it both ways.

Why spend time on the issue ...if not important to the repented?

 

[mailmandan]

m...,

Again....... startled.

Why were you baptized all the while advocating against baptism?

Why startled? I'm not advocating against believers receiving water baptism, but only against salvation by water baptism or baptismal regeneration. I was water baptized because we are commanded to be water baptized and it's our public confession of faith that signifies we have been buried with Him in baptism and raised with Him to walk in newness of life. Water baptism does not literally save believers, but is a symbol of salvation in that it depicts Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences.

 

[DJ2]

Why startled? I'm not advocating against believers receiving water baptism, but only against salvation by water baptism or baptismal regeneration. I was water baptized because we are commanded to be water baptized and it's our public confession of faith that signifies we have been buried with Him in baptism and raised with Him to walk in newness of life. Water baptism does not literally save believers, but is a symbol of salvation in that it depicts Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences.

I'm not advocating against believers receiving water baptism,

Moot point since no one is advocating baptizing unbelievers.

but only against salvation by water baptism or baptismal regeneration

Also a moot point since no one is advocating salvation by water baptism or baptismal regeneration. But you most certainly are advocating faith alone regeneration.

I was water baptized because we are commanded to be water baptized and it's our public confession of faith that signifies we have been buried with Him in baptism and raised with Him to walk in newness of life.

Nothing could be further from the truth. A person professing faith and being immersion under water does not prove or signify a reality. Many people are "rebaptized", this rebaptism shows that our acts, (no matter how sincere) can never prove a reality. Many cults perform "baptisms" it does not signify they were buried or raised.

Water baptism does not literally save believers, but is a symbol of salvation in that it depicts Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences.

Again, just a distraction. No one is proclaiming water immersion "literally" saves. But neither is it a simple symbol of that salvation since a symbol does not proof a reality. Peter did not call it a "symbol" in Acts 2:38 nor did Jesus command belief and a "symbol" for those who are saved in Mark 16:16.

Baptism does not save but it is the ordained point/moment of the forgiveness of sins. Dying with belief in Jesus Christ but without the forgiveness of sins is much like going to the wedding feast but not wearing the proper clothing.

 

[notuptome]

Again, just a distraction. No one is proclaiming water immersion "literally" saves. But neither is it a simple symbol of that salvation since a symbol does not proof a reality. Peter did not call it a "symbol" in Acts 2:38 nor did Jesus command belief and a "symbol" for those who are saved in Mark 16:16.

Baptism does not save but it is the ordained point/moment of the forgiveness of sins. Dying with belief in Jesus Christ but without the forgiveness of sins is much like going to the wedding feast but not wearing the proper clothing.

Acts 2:38 is not water baptism. The word baptize in the original Greek is to immerse like a sunken ship. If you place someone under the water like a sunken ship they will drown. This baptize can only refer to the baptism of the Holy Spirit that accompanies regeneration which is an irreversible immersion into the Holy Spirit and into Christ the Savior.

The same Greek word is used in Mark 16:16 which again confirms that it is not water baptism but Holy Spirit baptism being spoken of in the passage.

You continue to ignore proper hermeneutics so you cannot arrive at a correct understanding of the passage. Your preset dogma does not determine how the passage is understood.

Good grief man wake up arise from your slumber.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[DJ2]

Acts 2:38 is not water baptism. The word baptize in the original Greek is to immerse like a sunken ship. If you place someone under the water like a sunken ship they will drown. This baptize can only refer to the baptism of the Holy Spirit that accompanies regeneration which is an irreversible immersion into the Holy Spirit and into Christ the Savior.

The same Greek word is used in Mark 16:16 which again confirms that it is not water baptism but Holy Spirit baptism being spoken of in the passage.

You continue to ignore proper hermeneutics so you cannot arrive at a correct understanding of the passage. Your preset dogma does not determine how the passage is understood.

Good grief man wake up arise from your slumber.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I would like to respond but I don't live in your world.