BAPTISM --- TWICE ??
- Thread starter FranC
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I would add...and am not saying the two sons as a parable does not represent what is written The title of that parable is not inspired by God. I view that parable more as the “Waiting Father” used to represent our Father in heaven who had gave a eternal inheritance and in his foreknowledge knew the son would return. We can deny Him in unbelief but He cannot deny he has given the eternal inheritance.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
How far off ?… an eternity. No man can come unless the father working in them to both will and does His good pleasure as a imputed righteousness draws us.
The elder son as in most cases with two sons represented natural unconverted man .He did not enter the house.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
How far off ?… an eternity. No man can come unless the father working in them to both will and does His good pleasure as a imputed righteousness draws us.
The elder son as in most cases with two sons represented natural unconverted man .He did not enter the house.
I do believe I'll start a thread on this. This week.
Please join.
Consider what you've said here:
I view that parable more as the “Waiting Father” used to represent our Father in heaven who had gave a eternal inheritance and in his foreknowledge knew the son would return. We can deny Him in unbelief but He cannot deny he has given the eternal inheritance.
Does foreknowledge cause something to happen?
It would seem that this is what you're saying...
Please join.
Consider what you've said here:
I view that parable more as the “Waiting Father” used to represent our Father in heaven who had gave a eternal inheritance and in his foreknowledge knew the son would return. We can deny Him in unbelief but He cannot deny he has given the eternal inheritance.
Does foreknowledge cause something to happen?
It would seem that this is what you're saying...
E
I see it this way, The HS coming in you is the anointing of the spirit,
The Holy Spirit placing you into (baptize) the death, burial and body of Christ, where your sins are washed away, (titus 3: 5) This is the baptism of the HS
When a man immerses you (baptize) in water, this is water baptism.
they are three separate events, One happens the moment you are born again, it is called the washing and renewal of the HS. followed by the other, the anointing of the spirit. And then after all this is done, We have a choice to obey God, and allow a man to baptize us in water, in a ceremony and testimony of an inward fact, God has washed you and made you clean, and adopted you into his family.
Titus 3:5, not by works of righteousness which we have done, He saved us by the WASHING and renewal (new birth) of the Holy Spirit.
it is the HS who does the work, he is not obligated to wait until a man baptizes you in water to do this work, he can do this at any time.
The Holy Spirit placing you into (baptize) the death, burial and body of Christ, where your sins are washed away, (titus 3: 5) This is the baptism of the HS
When a man immerses you (baptize) in water, this is water baptism.
they are three separate events, One happens the moment you are born again, it is called the washing and renewal of the HS. followed by the other, the anointing of the spirit. And then after all this is done, We have a choice to obey God, and allow a man to baptize us in water, in a ceremony and testimony of an inward fact, God has washed you and made you clean, and adopted you into his family.
Titus 3:5, not by works of righteousness which we have done, He saved us by the WASHING and renewal (new birth) of the Holy Spirit.
it is the HS who does the work, he is not obligated to wait until a man baptizes you in water to do this work, he can do this at any time.
Matthew 20:22
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
Perhaps Matthew 20:22 is speaking of being plunged (baptized) into sufferings, sorrows, reproaches and death.
Crucified in this sense.......
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2 Timothy 3:12
Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
Perhaps Matthew 20:22 is speaking of being plunged (baptized) into sufferings, sorrows, reproaches and death.
Crucified in this sense.......
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2 Timothy 3:12
Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness... 
E
I will try to answer everything, it is hard when you insert a comment into the quote, because it does not carry over into the reply.
1. As for phillipians, Paul is talking about the reward he will recieve in heaven, Not heaven itself. A reward is a payment for a work done, Salvation is by grace it can not be earned, so paul would never call it a reward.
We should all press forward to the prize of the high calling of Christ as his children.
2. What does the NT say about your salvation.
A. It says you have been saved (a completed act) by Gods mercy
titus 3: 5, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy HE SAVED US by the washing and renewal of the HS.
B. It says we have been saved (again a completed act) by grace through faith
Eph 2:8 - 9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
C. It says since we have been justified (which is a completed act, and as a result) and reconciled to God, we will be saved from wrath.
Rom 5: 9-10 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 or if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
D. He saved us (a completed action) and called us (a completed action) by a holy calling, not according to our works, but by his mercy and grace
2 Timothy 1: 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
there are many more, but the scripture is clear, we are saved, and shall be saved by Gods wrath,
Matt 7 is gods warning to those tryign to earn their way to heaven by good deeds, They come to him praising all their great works in Jesus name, Jesus replay, I never knew you , depart from me.
ok the next one i have to copy and paste what is said, could be confusing.
We are saved by faith how many times does scripture say this?
God said come to him, all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest you did not know this?
And finally, eph 2: 10, We are saved (made a new creation) for good works.
No, because when people argue against a doctrine, they argue against its merit, even if it has some basis of truth, Also. Most people do not even really understand what the doctrine says, so again, Will cause nothing but confusion.
To me, OSAS simply is a short cut for saying once a person is saved by grace, they are saved forever. It has nothign to do wiht the doctrine as imposed by calvin and the tulip principles. So when you argue against OSAS to me, you are not even aguing against something I believe.
As i have said before
a work of the flesh is a work to gain something for self
a work of the spirit is a work that serves others, or God, and does not expect anything in return.
1. As for phillipians, Paul is talking about the reward he will recieve in heaven, Not heaven itself. A reward is a payment for a work done, Salvation is by grace it can not be earned, so paul would never call it a reward.
We should all press forward to the prize of the high calling of Christ as his children.
2. What does the NT say about your salvation.
A. It says you have been saved (a completed act) by Gods mercy
titus 3: 5, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy HE SAVED US by the washing and renewal of the HS.
B. It says we have been saved (again a completed act) by grace through faith
Eph 2:8 - 9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
C. It says since we have been justified (which is a completed act, and as a result) and reconciled to God, we will be saved from wrath.
Rom 5: 9-10 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 or if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
D. He saved us (a completed action) and called us (a completed action) by a holy calling, not according to our works, but by his mercy and grace
2 Timothy 1: 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
there are many more, but the scripture is clear, we are saved, and shall be saved by Gods wrath,
Matt 7 is gods warning to those tryign to earn their way to heaven by good deeds, They come to him praising all their great works in Jesus name, Jesus replay, I never knew you , depart from me.
ok the next one i have to copy and paste what is said, could be confusing.
We are saved by faith how many times does scripture say this?
God said come to him, all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest you did not know this?
And finally, eph 2: 10, We are saved (made a new creation) for good works.
No, because when people argue against a doctrine, they argue against its merit, even if it has some basis of truth, Also. Most people do not even really understand what the doctrine says, so again, Will cause nothing but confusion.
To me, OSAS simply is a short cut for saying once a person is saved by grace, they are saved forever. It has nothign to do wiht the doctrine as imposed by calvin and the tulip principles. So when you argue against OSAS to me, you are not even aguing against something I believe.
As i have said before
a work of the flesh is a work to gain something for self
a work of the spirit is a work that serves others, or God, and does not expect anything in return.
I think the word baptizo absolutely indicated water.... the concept of being immersed in anything other than water would have been a totally new concept to the people of those times, going all the way back into OT times...
It would be as if I said "you must be dunked"...... nobody would think I was talking about dunking you in sand, or just a "virtual" dunking.... the FIRST thing that would come to mind would be dunking in water...
It would be as if I said "you must be dunked"...... nobody would think I was talking about dunking you in sand, or just a "virtual" dunking.... the FIRST thing that would come to mind would be dunking in water...
E
1. Did his fathers blood stop running through his veins?
2. Did his fathers DNA stop being part of ever cell of his body (was he made a different creature that what he was when he lived in his fathers house?
3. Think of the times, The oldest son received the fathers inheritance, which was everything he had. The father still had stuff to give, which means the son did not receive all which was due him, The son just took what he thought he needed and moved on, And spent it prety fast.
what would have happened if the son died? The father would have heard about it, Went to get his body, bring it home, and bury it where it belonged
Why? He was his fathers son. and the father loved him with an unconditional love all fathers should have,
I was a prodigal son for 5 years. I happen to have experienced everything jesus said about the son, The reason I came back was because I lost everything and was without hope.. Just like the son.
so it is one thing to know what the word says, it is another to live it out.
By foreknowledge believing by exercising (working) ones creative faith as the faithful Creators work of faith or labor of love God said let there be... and there was.
No man can come unless he father is drawing them
I would offer because God is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul pleases. We look to Him as Emanuel "God with us". It is him that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure as a imputed righteousness that even gives us as a new creation a desire to look at his will.. We as a result work out that which he has freely given us and not work to gain it
Because Christian do have the Spirit of Christ the Holy Spirit of God our being yoked with him makes the work lighter.
If any man has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of God.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
No man can come unless he father is drawing them
I would offer because God is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul pleases. We look to Him as Emanuel "God with us". It is him that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure as a imputed righteousness that even gives us as a new creation a desire to look at his will.. We as a result work out that which he has freely given us and not work to gain it
Because Christian do have the Spirit of Christ the Holy Spirit of God our being yoked with him makes the work lighter.
If any man has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of God.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
EG,
I just read again your line above about me asking you things over and over just to upset you.
I don't like to upset people, especially MEN. I happen to like men. (they make more sense than women)
( I'm happily married)
Why would I want to upset you???
SOMETIMES YOU upset ME!!!
But I'm hoping those days are gone.
I like civil conversation.
We're doing good !
I just read again your line above about me asking you things over and over just to upset you.
I don't like to upset people, especially MEN. I happen to like men. (they make more sense than women)
( I'm happily married)
Why would I want to upset you???
SOMETIMES YOU upset ME!!!
But I'm hoping those days are gone.
I like civil conversation.
We're doing good !
E
lol, Have you ever studied the greek word? The word baptizo was a very popular word in greek culture, and very little of the word usage had anything to do with water.
so yeah, Sorry, but this is not true
Baptizo is a word which means to immerse or place into, it was also used in the day of a person who died garments (gave them their color) a baptizer was a person who did the dying.
so it had many uses, not just to immerse in water.
As for biblical support. Paul says the children of Israel were baptized into moses, No one would have though all the people of Isreal were taken to the river and immersed in water, EVERYONE would have understood they were placed into moses, moses being the spiritual head. Just like we are baptized into Christ, Christ being the spiritual head.
in fact, the whole issue comes to a word, Baptize is not even a native English word, and it is not the definition or interpretation of the Greek word (baptizo) it is a transliteration. Which was a huge mistake, if they just interpreted the word. we would not be having this conversation.
E
ink was involved in tie dying a garment, a baptizer was a person who dyed garments.
you baptize something by placing it into something, when it comes out, it is changed.
Jesus is said he will come with his robes dipped (bapto) in blood ( another form of the word)
this is one of those words were we need to study the history of the greek word, not the english, for the word is not a native english word.
you baptize something by placing it into something, when it comes out, it is changed.
Jesus is said he will come with his robes dipped (bapto) in blood ( another form of the word)
this is one of those words were we need to study the history of the greek word, not the english, for the word is not a native english word.
Agreed, and Jesus also said " No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."
Works accompany faith, it's not rocket science to all.
Btw, all glory be to God our Father who leads us in the power of His love, in Jesus Christ.
Good day to all of you.
May God's love,mercy and peace keep you all....... in Christ Jesus.
Works accompany faith, it's not rocket science to all.
Btw, all glory be to God our Father who leads us in the power of His love, in Jesus Christ.
Good day to all of you.
May God's love,mercy and peace keep you all....... in Christ Jesus.