BAPTISM --- TWICE ??
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This is a great post MMD.
A lot of work went into it.
But do you believe it doesn't matter whether or not one is baptized?
It sounds like this.
Jesus specifically said to baptize:
Mathew 28:19
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
verse 20
"and teachng them to obey everyhting I have commanded you. And surely I am with you Always to the very end of the age."
Persons such as yourself who believe that salvation cannot be lost, like to use Mathew 28:20 as a proof verse saying that Jesus will be with us till the end.
So if you accept verse 20, must you not also accept verse 19?
The early Church theologians believed that water baptism washed away sins. They felt is was important to do.
I understand all the symbolism of baptism, but frankly, I've never understood WHY it should be necessary.
AND, I do not believe that a person is lost if they are saved but not baptized.
I just think we should do what Jesus commanded us to do.
The Israelites had to GO THROUGH THE WATER to be saved. If they had stayed on the Egyptian shore, they would have been killed by the soldiers.
Noah had to GO THROUGH THE WATER to be saved. If he had stayed on land, he would have died (and his family).
So baptism is very symbolic.
But the early theologians believed it was more than symbolic. They believed it washed sins away.
Here's Justin Martyr:
Justin Martyr
As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father... and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
A lot of work went into it.
But do you believe it doesn't matter whether or not one is baptized?
It sounds like this.
Jesus specifically said to baptize:
Mathew 28:19
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
verse 20
"and teachng them to obey everyhting I have commanded you. And surely I am with you Always to the very end of the age."
Persons such as yourself who believe that salvation cannot be lost, like to use Mathew 28:20 as a proof verse saying that Jesus will be with us till the end.
So if you accept verse 20, must you not also accept verse 19?
The early Church theologians believed that water baptism washed away sins. They felt is was important to do.
I understand all the symbolism of baptism, but frankly, I've never understood WHY it should be necessary.
AND, I do not believe that a person is lost if they are saved but not baptized.
I just think we should do what Jesus commanded us to do.
The Israelites had to GO THROUGH THE WATER to be saved. If they had stayed on the Egyptian shore, they would have been killed by the soldiers.
Noah had to GO THROUGH THE WATER to be saved. If he had stayed on land, he would have died (and his family).
So baptism is very symbolic.
But the early theologians believed it was more than symbolic. They believed it washed sins away.
Here's Justin Martyr:
Justin Martyr
As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father... and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
The early Church Fathers, or theologians, believed babies should be baptized.
I'll post some of what they said...
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Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life" (On Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).
When we are about to enter the water — no, just a little before — In the church and under the hand of the bishop, we solemnly profess that we renounce the devil and his pomps and his angels. Thereupon we are immersed three times (The Crown 3:2 [A.D. 211]).
Hippolytus
Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).
Recognitions of Clement
But you will perhaps say, 'What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?' In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).
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I'll post some of what they said...
ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life" (On Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).
When we are about to enter the water — no, just a little before — In the church and under the hand of the bishop, we solemnly profess that we renounce the devil and his pomps and his angels. Thereupon we are immersed three times (The Crown 3:2 [A.D. 211]).
Hippolytus
Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).
Recognitions of Clement
But you will perhaps say, 'What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?' In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).
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I agree that it's great to be born again at an early age.
Some persons that have this experience at a later age are sorry that they "wasted" such a big part of their life -- before they knew Jesus, since they're so much happier and more fulfilled now.
I'm just not sure we should be baptizing children. The early theologians thought children shoud be baptized --- I looked it up.
If baptizm has a regenerating effect, then children would have to be baptized too...
Maybe the question is: What Is Baptism?
(I mean REALLY)
Some persons that have this experience at a later age are sorry that they "wasted" such a big part of their life -- before they knew Jesus, since they're so much happier and more fulfilled now.
I'm just not sure we should be baptizing children. The early theologians thought children shoud be baptized --- I looked it up.
If baptizm has a regenerating effect, then children would have to be baptized too...
Maybe the question is: What Is Baptism?
(I mean REALLY)
Yes!
A true jew is one who has had his heart circumcised - not his flesh.
And a true Baptism is not performed by human hands either.
Each man should follow his own conscience in this. If he has never been baptized in water but he has received the Holy Spirit and his conscience is not bothered, no man should disturb him, because he realizes the sacraments of the church are pictures of the real matter, in spirit.
If another man is bothered in conscience, no one should disturb him either if he wants the sacrament of the church. He won't be harmed by it. Only his suit may be harmed!
A true jew is one who has had his heart circumcised - not his flesh.
And a true Baptism is not performed by human hands either.
Each man should follow his own conscience in this. If he has never been baptized in water but he has received the Holy Spirit and his conscience is not bothered, no man should disturb him, because he realizes the sacraments of the church are pictures of the real matter, in spirit.
If another man is bothered in conscience, no one should disturb him either if he wants the sacrament of the church. He won't be harmed by it. Only his suit may be harmed!
Something Dcon touched on...
The signs of the Covenants.
In the O.C. the sign was circumcision. Babies were circumcised.
In the N.C. the sign is baptism. So if we're going to substitute circumcision with baptism, MAYBE babies should be baptized...
(some theologians believe communion is the sign of the N.C. because of the Last Supper)
Hi NNM
It would seem, by reading the early Church fathers (or theologians) that baptism is needed because it "washes your sins away".
Jesus did tell the Apostles to baptise in Mathew 28:19.
However, I do believe it's the sacrifice of Jesus that saves.
I cannot imagine someone believing in Christ, living as He commanded (the best we can) and then throwing us into hell because we were never baptized.
OTOH, He DID SAY to do this. We should do what He said, even if we don't understand it.
It would seem, by reading the early Church fathers (or theologians) that baptism is needed because it "washes your sins away".
Jesus did tell the Apostles to baptise in Mathew 28:19.
However, I do believe it's the sacrifice of Jesus that saves.
I cannot imagine someone believing in Christ, living as He commanded (the best we can) and then throwing us into hell because we were never baptized.
OTOH, He DID SAY to do this. We should do what He said, even if we don't understand it.
John 3:5
Some churches believe that the water represents natural Birth, as you've stated.
Some churches believe that the water represents baptism.
Now, dcontroversal has given you a Like, which confuses me because he stated that he believed
the water in John 3:5 represents baptism.
Maybe he could clarify...
Some churches believe that the water represents natural Birth, as you've stated.
Some churches believe that the water represents baptism.
Now, dcontroversal has given you a Like, which confuses me because he stated that he believed
the water in John 3:5 represents baptism.
Maybe he could clarify...
I would say that the two are unable to be compared. Circumcision was mandated by God under the Abrahamic covenant to specifically be done at 8 days old.
Genesis 17:12-13 reads: Throughout your generations, every male among you at eight days old is to be circumcised. This includes a slave born in your house and one purchased with money from any foreigner. The one who is not your offspring, a slave born in your house, as well as one purchased with money, must be circumcised. My covenant will be marked in your flesh as an everlasting covenant.
Whereas in water baptism we read in Acts 2:38: “Repent,” Peter said to them, “and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
Repenting comes first, then the baptism. Since an infant is unable to repent, it is something that would have to be done later in life.
Genesis 17:12-13 reads: Throughout your generations, every male among you at eight days old is to be circumcised. This includes a slave born in your house and one purchased with money from any foreigner. The one who is not your offspring, a slave born in your house, as well as one purchased with money, must be circumcised. My covenant will be marked in your flesh as an everlasting covenant.
Whereas in water baptism we read in Acts 2:38: “Repent,” Peter said to them, “and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
Repenting comes first, then the baptism. Since an infant is unable to repent, it is something that would have to be done later in life.
