BEWARE!

[Reborn]

I think its pretty acceptable these days to throw an apostle of Jesus Christ the Lord under the bus, whether someone has been somewhere for one hour or 20 years, the acceptance of that just confirms to me the times we are living in.

Correct!.....Christianity and it's followers can be a huge disappointment.
I say the same for those who label someone from an opinion on one topic.
Sad.
So judgmental.
Yes, it takes WEEKS to get to know someone overall sis.

Do you even know Hiz's background?
No?

You have ANY idea where he is starting from? What he came from to even get to this?
Yes, he tends to dig too deep...but to say he is not a Christian? Rubbish.

You don't even know the guy......but I know something about you now!!!!

I think that is obvious.

You should really let it go.

 

[ISeeYou]

Incorrect, the times are just that, the times that are.

Its not judgmental to acknowledge the same.

I dont want to know or even need to know anyone (or their backround) who claims to be a brother but who would throw the Lords apostle under the bus, thats irrelevant.

If you want to receive someone bringing another gospel and partake of those evil deeds in doing so that would be your choice, and if you want to play that, this tells me a little about you as well.

 

[Jackson123]

This is just my opinion.

Either you believe osas or not. You have to believe that if branch not bear the fruit, mean not abide to vine than will be throw to the lake of fire/hell/not save.

I don't think this is our focus. Our focus is to abide in the vine.

 

[Gandalf]

Beware! Non-Pauline Christians are no Christians at all. They look like a lamb on the outside, but they speak with the mouth of a Dragon.

They deny the grace of the gospel in Jesus Christ by promoting salvation through the works of the law. Beware, they are working in these forums.

LOL so I guess you are saved by the grace of Paul then? no my friend, even without Paul you can still get to know Yeshua the Messiah and you will be ok...

One thing all parties involved in these arguments should remember is that Abba Father warns us not to add or take away from His Word.

 

[crossnote]

Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles.
Those who have trouble with Paul normally are those who desire to bring the Gentiles under the law.

Eph 3:2-9 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: (3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, (4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) (5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; (6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. (8) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; (9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

These truths of God's mystery, the anti Paulines haven't a clue. The only language they speak is that of law-law-law. The Grace of God on account of Christ is nothing more than a vitamin pill to help you do-do-do. For them, all glory goes to them even though they will mouth 'praise the Lord' and it is witnessed by their incessant focus on self and not Christ.

 

[Reborn]

Incorrect, the times are just that, the times that are.

Its not judgmental to acknowledge the same.

I dont want to know or even need to know anyone (or their backround) who claims to be a brother but who would throw the Lords apostle under the bus, thats irrelevant.

If you want to receive someone bringing another gospel and partake of those evil deeds in doing so that would be your choice, and if you want to play that, this tells me a little about you as well.

You know something about me?
Are you claiming that because I stuck up for a brother, (that you guys prematurely attacked btw), an example of the great apostasy of the end times?

Lame.
I feel no need to defend myself. I am defending who I believe is an honest seeker.

The love of most will wax cold? Is that a sign of the times?

I do/did not stick up for His thoughts on Paul, I stated that.
I do not know where Hiz's walk is, nor his true heart. Only God does.
Did he ever bash Christ? ......So....... who are we to say where he is with God?

I do not know you or the guy who started this post....but if you guys think that it's okay to call out a brother in some lame attempt to "point out heresy" or to maybe even embarrass him a little...that's just tacky.

When I said drop it, I was giving you advice.
Remember, there are still rules to the game and around the sandbox here.
You may not "care" what others think, but if you ever decide to join in on any BDF debates....Hiz is always there, and highly respected for the other 95% he brings to the table.

 

[Karraster]

Hiz is saying the translation is a bit off in some verses. I agree. For goodness sakes, who here really thinks the KJV is perfect? The Word handed down in the original was perfect, but there are a few things not perfect in translations.

Pretty sad seeing people talking bad about Hiz...he certainly would never do that to you.

 

[Karraster]

Mr Reborn, what is BDF debates? TIA

 

[ChristIsGod]

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT PAUL - NOT OSAS !

Incorrect, the times are just that, the times that are.

Its not judgmental to acknowledge the same.

I dont want to know or even need to know anyone (or their backround) who claims to be a brother but who would throw the Lords apostle under the bus, thats irrelevant.

If you want to receive someone bringing another gospel and partake of those evil deeds in doing so that would be your choice, and if you want to play that, this tells me a little about you as well.

Exactly .... Throwing Paul under a bus seems to be getting lost with this OSAS debate again.

The OP and most posts are in opposition of coming against Paul and as ISeeYou has said - "throwing a GOD Chosen Apostle under a bus" as in getting us to believe that the writings of Paul are not to be taken seriously and I wonder where you all have been that don't realize that this is what has happened this week.

I've also seen this way of teaching on the internet for the 12 yrs that I've been on it. From Messianic Groups to Hebrew Roots Movement groups.

This is not the argument about OSAS - Kenneth and all - this is someone that is literally saying that Paul contradicts himself, is not to be trusted, and is posting in so many words that the Apostle Paul was a fraud.

If it were my dearest friend on earth - if I saw that I can't convince them otherwise - then I have to tell them that they've gone way too far and are in serious danger to defame an Apostle chosen by Christ - struck down on his way to Damascus and given charge to be the Apostle to the Gentiles and wrote almost 14 books of our N.T..
The Apostle that suffered more in the flesh then any of the others until he was finally killed in Rome.
And not only that - but as soon as you accuse any books of the Bible to be written in error - you've opened a door to those less learned to begin to think that the whole of God's Word is not to be taken seriously as it has errors in it.

Could we Please get off of the topic of OSAS and get to the topic that this is about --- it's about throwing Paul out of the N.T. and I don't care who the person is that does this - they are dangerously wrong to have done so and a danger to others that are trying to believe in the innerancy of the Scriptures and can put doubt in the young in Christ that the Bible as we have it is not Divinely Inspired.... so then where do they turn for TRUTH?

Paul was a special man in more ways than one could list in a post. Specially chosen to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles though he himself at one time was a Pharisee. The man had incredible wisdom and could speak to the Greeks as well as the Jews and Gentiles.

Throwing Paul out is throwing out the heart of the Gospel to the Gentiles and the same man that said that he would be willing to GO TO HELL for his fellow Israelites.

Stay on topic here - this is an important topic and "ISeeYou" even gave a link to one of the places that has thrown out Paul and why they have - because they've gone back under the law of Moses - not the law of Christ.

Frustrating when others don't read posts but comment anyway and take the thread far off topic.
I wouldn't care if it were a light topic - but this topic is another form of the Falling Away that Christ spoke about BY PAUL and Peter was rebuked for this topic BY PAUL.

The two extremes - far to one end of the spectrum is antinomianism and the other extreme is going back under the letter of the law and not understanding the spirit of the law that Christ brought and making it law to call God and Jesus by their Hebrew Names ... as if we can reach every nation on earth with differing languages and make them stop calling Jesus - Yesu in Africa, etc. etc.

Do you think that we should disregard Paul or not? Are you going to believe that Paul preached ERROR or not? That's what this thread's about --- and not the OSAS topic again.
And are you going to believe, that you're sinning if you don't use the Hebrew Names for God or Jesus or Christ?

Far extremes on this forum and this is just the opposite extreme of "do as thou wilt and you'll still be saved"... that even the Reformed Theology folks do not preach!

 

[ChristIsGod]

Hiz is saying the translation is a bit off in some verses. I agree. For goodness sakes, who here really thinks the KJV is perfect? The Word handed down in the original was perfect, but there are a few things not perfect in translations.

Pretty sad seeing people talking bad about Hiz...he certainly would never do that to you.

Not true Sis. You are not reading that thread closely that has his name in the title.

 

[Reborn]

Mr Reborn, what is BDF debates? TIA

BDF=Bible Discussion Forum

Everyone who reads this:
I believe in helping others, not writing them off...or judging them, until discernment is needed, when all else fails.
Don't be fooled anyone, this thread is NOT and never was about Paul,..... it is a lame attempt to call out Hiz's character.
People were trying to help/guide him, in other threads.....this thread needs to be done with.

 

[breno785au]

Some people should just admit they're wanna-be Jews.

Paul was a good bloke.

 

[Karraster]

Not true Sis. You are not reading that thread closely that has his name in the title.

granted, I have not read very much, didn't care to because Atwood started the thread not Hiz...u do know that, right? Anyhow, what seems to me is Atwood edited part of Hiz comment from another thread, it says so in the OP. Now I ask u, how sincere is it for a member to start a thread and put someone elses name on it? No, it is rude and presumptuous, and very un-christian. but then atwood disappears, or did he?

anyhow, i've been discussing Bible with Hiz for as long as I've been a member here. I find him to be very sincere in his search for truth, and that is refreshing and inspiring. I have not seen him say Paul was false, but there are problems here and there in translations. I agree, there is..whether anyone wants to face it there is. I found another one today....the sun of righteousness, with healing in his rays...What? rays? that is a gross mistranslation! (forgot what version at the moment)

I think everyone should cool down and back away for a bit. sometimes we all get carried away and say too much, we are family, we get over it.

 

[Karraster]

Some people should just admit they're wanna-be Jews.

Paul was a good bloke.

Ok, i wanna be a Jew, big time! I like Paul too, he was Jew ya know.

Seriously tho, what kind of a comment is that? Scriptures were written by Hebrews, when a Gentile writes some scripture, then I'll study that, but till it happens, yeah..

 

[ChristIsGod]

Sis, you need to read all of Hiz's posts on that thread. Although I was upset that Atwood handled it that way and thought it was quite cowardly in the sense that he posted it and we didn't see anymore of him either --- the posts by Hiz totally floored me and before that thread - I had probably been one of Hiz's biggest fans. Just the first page alone has 5 posts against Paul and it doesn't end with that page 1.

I'm sorry - but that's why I was so shook by this whole thing. I truly have defended him and sided with him more than most because I didn't want him to be misunderstood to be what some fear is the extreme of Messianics - but this week I had to find out that he is.

Still have tears on this one, Sis. I'm just in shock from this week's exposures.

I read the Textus Receptus that is the Greek the N.T. was written in and the better Hebrew versions - both from the KJV because of their use of those both and I've never seen "rays" because I won't bother with other versions except those numbered to the closest to the originals that we have.

Paul comes before my friendship with anyone, Sis - even Hiz. I'm sorry that you haven't had time to read that other thread carefully. I don't "turn on Friends" like Hiz was to me for senseless, non-salvational issues - not by a long shot.

 

[ISeeYou]

[/FONT]

You know something about me?
Are you claiming that because I stuck up for a brother, (that you guys prematurely attacked btw), an example of the great apostasy of the end times?

Lame.
I feel no need to defend myself. I am defending who I believe is an honest seeker.

The love of most will wax cold? Is that a sign of the times?

I do/did not stick up for His thoughts on Paul, I stated that.
I do not know where Hiz's walk is, nor his true heart. Only God does.
Did he ever bash Christ? ......So....... who are we to say where he is with God?

I do not know you or the guy who started this post....but if you guys think that it's okay to call out a brother in some lame attempt to "point out heresy" or to maybe even embarrass him a little...that's just tacky.

When I said drop it, I was giving you advice.
Remember, there are still rules to the game and around the sandbox here.
You may not "care" what others think, but if you ever decide to join in on any BDF debates....Hiz is always there, and highly respected for the other 95% he brings to the table.[/FONT]

When I didnt take your advice that was just sort of my way of blowing it off.

I might not have called Hizi out on a topic, as we were running into him on topics already, and I have chosen to ignore him

However, I would just rather stand behind an apostle of Jesus Christ, but you are more then welcome to count as your brother one that seeks to undermine the apostle of our Lord.

Thats is your choice.

I might highly respect the Lord choice for the apostle Paul, you might highly respect someone who disrepects the Lord's choice, and thats fine too.

Again, thats your choice.

But this does not surprise me given the times we live in.

I'm just not sold on all the respects of a persons as you might be, I am aparently not as impressed as you are.

The apostle Paul did more as a minister to the Gentiles than anyone, especially anyone here in this little sandbox.

But nearly 2000 years after Jesus Christ we have these young respected experts coming forth who can give us the heads up on our Lord Jesus sending his churches this unearned title "the false apostle Paul".

And the likes of them being strengthened by others support in standing with them?

It is sad, but its not like its a bad thing to begin to see the line in the sand

 

[JesusistheChrist]

What law was in effect from the very foundation of the world, and how were those prior to the law of Moses saved (if salvation comes by faith in the law) as suggested. Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Don't get me wrong...I agree with what you're saying:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God." (I Peter 1:18-21)

Jesus was "foreordained before the foundation of the world" to be "a lamb without blemish and without spot" and GENTILES (the first to be saved "by faith") like Abel, Enoch, Noah and even Abraham were all saved "by faith" in Him long before "the law" was given to Moses at Mt. Sinai. In fact, they were all given as examples of persevering in the faith to THE HEBREW Christians in the epistle to THE HEBREWS. This I've believed and taught for many, many years as at least one member here who knows me from another forum could easily attest to. Anyhow, when I have more time, then I'll have to check out some of those other threads which I haven't read yet to get up to speed with what has actually been said here recently. If anybody's attacking Paul and his writings, then I'd certainly be the first to defend Paul as, again, I've never seen even a hint of contradiction between his writings and the words of Jesus or the words of any other apostles for that matter.

 

[ISeeYou]

Re: THIS THREAD IS ABOUT PAUL - NOT OSAS !

Exactly .... Throwing Paul under a bus seems to be getting lost with this OSAS debate again.

The OP and most posts are in opposition of coming against Paul and as ISeeYou has said - "throwing a GOD Chosen Apostle under a bus" as in getting us to believe that the writings of Paul are not to be taken seriously and I wonder where you all have been that don't realize that this is what has happened this week.

I've also seen this way of teaching on the internet for the 12 yrs that I've been on it. From Messianic Groups to Hebrew Roots Movement groups.

This is not the argument about OSAS - Kenneth and all - this is someone that is literally saying that Paul contradicts himself, is not to be trusted, and is posting in so many words that the Apostle Paul was a fraud.

If it were my dearest friend on earth - if I saw that I can't convince them otherwise - then I have to tell them that they've gone way too far and are in serious danger to defame an Apostle chosen by Christ - struck down on his way to Damascus and given charge to be the Apostle to the Gentiles and wrote almost 14 books of our N.T..
The Apostle that suffered more in the flesh then any of the others until he was finally killed in Rome.
And not only that - but as soon as you accuse any books of the Bible to be written in error - you've opened a door to those less learned to begin to think that the whole of God's Word is not to be taken seriously as it has errors in it.

Could we Please get off of the topic of OSAS and get to the topic that this is about --- it's about throwing Paul out of the N.T. and I don't care who the person is that does this - they are dangerously wrong to have done so and a danger to others that are trying to believe in the innerancy of the Scriptures and can put doubt in the young in Christ that the Bible as we have it is not Divinely Inspired.... so then where do they turn for TRUTH?

Paul was a special man in more ways than one could list in a post. Specially chosen to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles though he himself at one time was a Pharisee. The man had incredible wisdom and could speak to the Greeks as well as the Jews and Gentiles.

Throwing Paul out is throwing out the heart of the Gospel to the Gentiles and the same man that said that he would be willing to GO TO HELL for his fellow Israelites.

Stay on topic here - this is an important topic and "ISeeYou" even gave a link to one of the places that has thrown out Paul and why they have - because they've gone back under the law of Moses - not the law of Christ.

Frustrating when others don't read posts but comment anyway and take the thread far off topic.
I wouldn't care if it were a light topic - but this topic is another form of the Falling Away that Christ spoke about BY PAUL and Peter was rebuked for this topic BY PAUL.

The two extremes - far to one end of the spectrum is antinomianism and the other extreme is going back under the letter of the law and not understanding the spirit of the law that Christ brought and making it law to call God and Jesus by their Hebrew Names ... as if we can reach every nation on earth with differing languages and make them stop calling Jesus - Yesu in Africa, etc. etc.

Do you think that we should disregard Paul or not? Are you going to believe that Paul preached ERROR or not? That's what this thread's about --- and not the OSAS topic again.
And are you going to believe, that you're sinning if you don't use the Hebrew Names for God or Jesus or Christ?

Far extremes on this forum and this is just the opposite extreme of "do as thou wilt and you'll still be saved"... that even the Reformed Theology folks do not preach!

You nailed it sis, being newer here I wasnt understanding why some people here hit posts with that "OSAS" or not (with the sarcasms) in thm. This is somewhat new not to mention a little strange to me, it was getting lost on me.

I just dont use any catch phrases that arent scripture, I do the same with the word trinty, I will only fully acknowledge the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost but thats me, I prefer that. Im like that with all other words and various doctrinal catch phrases though, I refused to adopt them or use them as some kind of a lense through which to see all scripture. To me, its like making the scripture subject to it.

But I am apparently not seeing some underlying forum tensions between the two different views.

I hope you dont mind I took the liberty to highlight portions of your post, so if any chose to rush through that, those key points would be less likely to go unnoticed.


You are correct this is not about OSAS its about undermining Paul the apostle,

God bless you sis

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Anyone who says they believe the words of Messiah, but at the same time reject the words of Paul as truth, is nothing more than a liar and a deceiver.

First let me say I stand by my statement above 100%, no exceptions, no matter who they are. Also this is not a OSAS thread as suggested, but a defending the Truth thread.

 

[grebtrah]

Report them. Throw them out. That easy. Get out the wolfs of the sheep area.