Biblical Logical Fallacies?

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Nov 26, 2011
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#21
Skinski,

Even without a commandment (as you attempt to illustrate from Rom 7) people died from Adam to Moses due to sin.
They still sinned against conscience and thus sinned not after the similtude of Adam's sin. They sinned within the context of what Paul writes in Romans 2.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

All human beings whom have the capacity to reason have the choice between sinning and not sinning. Sin is a moral issue.

God is willing to forgive those who have chosen evil over good but only if they repent of that choice and yield to the truth.
 
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#22
Irrefutable: Adam--Sin--Death.

Romans 5:12-14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

To deny this is similar to denying that the fetus in the womb is truly human...one refuses to make the connection in face of clear proof.
I die as consequence of Adam sinning, not because I inherited his sin.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#23
Skinski,,
Sorry, I can't have a serious conversation with one who turns truths of Scripture into hyperbole.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#24
also - people will say that - John 3:16 refers to All, but then when Romans says ALL have sinned -- they don't believe it
in Rom 3:9 context "they' and "all" refer to the two groups Jew and Gentile that make up mankind. Jews have sinned, Gentiles have sinned so all have sinned. ALL does not include Christ or the newly conceived.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#25
Skinski,,
Sorry, I can't have a serious conversation with one who turns truths of Scripture into hyperbole.
That is quite alright. It is very rare that those who promote being "born a sinner" as truth will even attempt to directly engage what I write. Usually they will dance around my writings or ignore them altogether.

Your silence speaks volumes to those who seriously wish to examine the issue.



Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Sin is a moral issue not a birth defect which is why God presented Cain with a choice.
 
L

LT

Guest
#26
I hate seeing people fighting over the headship of Adam.
Legal/Federal Headship
Natural/Seminal Headship
It's not either/or
it's both.

Jesus was born of a virgin for what reason?
To not be born with the guilt of Adam's sin.

Christ was the 2nd Adam, the only other man born without guilt.
 
D

danalee

Guest
#27
Nowhere does the Book of Romans state that babies are sinful or under condemnation for the sin of another. You just engaged in what you are trying to speak against in your OP.

Romans is not a text in isolation but is rather a presentation consistent with many references to the Old Testament.

An example...
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Many theologians will quote that verse as a proof text that no-one is in fact righteous and that this therefore substantiates the necessity that the literal righteousness of Jesus must be forensically imputed to the account of those who can never be righteous otherwise.

Yet Rom 3:10 is a reference to the sentiment expressed in...

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
Psa 53:1 To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
Psa 53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
Psa 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

A sentiment presented within the context of those who "reject God." Romans 3:10 is also presented within the context of Paul comparing the Jews to the Gentiles that both bodies of people are guilty of iniquity before God. Paul is not categorically teaching that babies are born sinners or that all people are under condemnation save a foreign judicial imputation of the righteousness of another.



Likewise...
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


The above text is often used to prove that sin is literally passed down from parent to child and thus implies that babies are born sinners and therefore already guilty before God. Yet the text actually states that death is passed upon all men for all having sinned (not sinned "in Adam" as the Latin Vulgate erroneously states which is where Rom 5:12 was originally abused).

Rom 5:12 is not an isolated proof text but is written within a contextual framework of thought. Rom 5:12-14 cannot be separated from the sentiment of...

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Death (to God) is passed onto all men when all men actually sin. Physical death is passed down from Adam not spiritual corruption. Likewise there is sentiment expressed in...

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

One can do by "nature" do that which is in the law which is a direct contradiction to those who would use Rom 5:12 as a proof text that one is by nature evil to begin with.

Many theologians will also take this verse...

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

...and use it as a proof text that babies are automatically born sinners due to the conduct of Adam.

The sentiment of Jesus Christ utterly contradicts such notions of automatic sinfulness and automatic righteousness. Jesus was an example for people to follow, an example of an individual who walked in the Spirit of God. An example that people could follow and by doing so escape the corruption of this world. More than that Jesus was a propitiatory offering presented to God on our behalf whereby our former rebellion (having come to repentance) can be washed away whereby we can have fellowship with God through Jesus.

What the wolves in sheeps clothing do is isolate and proof text select passages out of context in order to establish Jesus Christ as a substitute for personal obedience and conduct. Hence, in their minds, reconciliation to God through Jesus Christ is based on a "substitutional provision" as opposed to a "transformation of the heart." They have taken the "transformation of the heart" and appended as something that may or may not happen sometime in the future which effectively serves to deceive people who remain dead in their sins into believing they have been reconciled to God. A masterful deception if I ever saw one.
Are you implying that it is possible for a person to be born and therefore be sinless? Like Christ?

At what age does the thirst for sin enter a person? At what age can a person be held accountable for sin?
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#28
I hate seeing people fighting over the headship of Adam.
Legal/Federal Headship
Natural/Seminal Headship
It's not either/or
it's both.

Jesus was born of a virgin for what reason?
To not be born with the guilt of Adam's sin.

Christ was the 2nd Adam, the only other man born without guilt.
Here is what the Bible specifically states about the reason for the virgin birth of Jesus...

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

It had nothing to do with some inherited sin nature being passed down via the male seed which need to be bypassed. That teaching is rooted in ancient Greek philosophy which later developed into the dualism of Gnosticism.

Is it reasonable that a just and holy God would declare someone guilty because their parent sinned? Think about the merit of such an idea, it is pure foolishness craftily dressed as theology.

Jesus was tempted in all points as we are and was without sin. Not because He wasn't born with some inherited sin nature as the root of sin but rather He abided in the Spirit of God whereby He loved the Father as well as His neighbour from a pure heart.

Christ was the second Adam indeed as a quickening Spirit. A Spirit whereby true righteousness is fulfilled in us if we abide in it.

1Co_15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

In Adam all die. In Adam as a beast man giving the lusts of the flesh over to the service of sin. That is the road to death. yet in Christ, the quickening Spirit, we may be made alive unto God being raised up from the service of sin unto the service of righteousness in spirit and truth.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

It is through Christ our hearts are made pure that we may partake in the resurrection unto life when we are given a new body free of physical corruption.

Original Sin is a vicious attack on the notion that human beings are responsible for their sin and that they can truly obtain a pure heart via faith. Original Sin is the foundation upon which a substitution message of death is preached which still leaves those whom believe it as slaves to their own inward corruption.

All babies are born without guilt. God does not condemn the innocent. A new born babe is not evil, nor is it righteousness. A new born baby is pure in the eyes of God until such a time they choose to defile themselves by giving themselves over to sin.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#29
Are you implying that it is possible for a person to be born and therefore be sinless? Like Christ?

At what age does the thirst for sin enter a person? At what age can a person be held accountable for sin?
Of course it is possible for a person to be born and remain sinless. If it wasn't then sin is a necessity and we are victims and are not really responsible.

To teach that sin is a consequence of being born is to put the blame on God for your sin.

Sin enters a person "figuratively" because sin is not a material substance but a state of being or an action taken. Sin is moral. Sin (unto death) is simply when one willfully makes the choice to serve that which is not right, in other words they make the choice to do evil. God holds us all accountable for our actions.

Now it is very unlikely that one would never sin because sinning is the path of least resistance. In the absence of understanding how sin truly offends God, how it is truly unloving towards one's neighbour, and in the absence of the true consequences of sin why would an individual choose to refrain from sin (we are not born righteous)? Yet despite sin being universal it does not preclude choice and therefore the full culpability of those who choose to sin.

One simply cannot be reconciled to God whilst one is still in the service of rebellion to God. Likewise an adulterous husband or wife cannot find reconciliation with the one they married unless they forsake the adultery.

Sinners must repent of their sin, forsake their sin, and yield their heart in truth to God. They must turn from their selfishness and yield themselves to God. This is the only way that genuine salvation can be found.

Salvation is not found in theologies and dogmas which excuse an ongoing filthy heart condition. Such theologies and dogma in fact deny the cleansing power of the blood of Christ. They deny genuine salvation and promote a counterfeit which easily deceives a multitude.
 
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Oct 31, 2011
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#30
I die as consequence of Adam sinning, not because I inherited his sin.
It was my understanding that when Adam and Eve decided to have knowledge of sin by eating the apple, this knowledge became who they were, and what all their children inherit.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#31
At what age does the thirst for sin enter a person?
The "thirst for sin" is simply temptation. The Bible says this...

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Jesus was tempted in this fashion but did not give Himself over to it. So Jesus had a "thirst for sin" if we define such a thing as "being tempted by the natural passions of the flesh."

Sin unto death requires knowledge for sin can only kill via law. Thus I don't think there is any specific age when this happens, it is simply when an individual has the full capacity to reason right from wrong and they choose the wrong. That brings condemnation which cannot be undone because it is impossible to stand before God blameless when one has done evil. It is only through the propitiatory offering of Jesus Christ that our conscience can be made clean.
 
L

LT

Guest
#32
Original Sin is a vicious attack on the notion that human beings are responsible for their sin and that they can truly obtain a pure heart via faith. Original Sin is the foundation upon which a substitution message of death is preached which still leaves those whom believe it as slaves to their own inward corruption.
From what I've read, you have no reason to reject 'imputed' guilt other than your perceived results.

"Born guilty" does not mean that babies go to hell if they die.

'Substitution' does not mean that we can't obtain victory in this life.

none of this would make God responsible for sin, other than your own perceptions. Why do you base your beliefs about God on your own limited understanding?!
 
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Nov 26, 2011
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#33
It was my understanding that when Adam and Eve decided to have knowledge of sin by eating the apple, this knowledge became who they were, and what all their children inherit.
I think they obtained the "experiential" knowledge of good and evil which is why they hid themselves in shame. Before this they had no knowledge of such a thing. This experiential knowledge is not a hereditary things and therefore all babies are born into the same spiritual state as Adam was created (innocent and pure) with the exception of having a developed intellect.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#34
From what I've read, you have no reason to reject 'imputed' guilt other than your perceived results.

"Born guilty" does not mean that babies go to hell if they die.

'Substitution' does not mean that we can't obtain victory in this life.
You have thrown reason out the window. You cannot be guilty of something you did not do.

The source of the imputed guilt of all mankind "in Adam" is a direct result of a mistranslation in the Latin Vulgate (which I outlined above) which Augustine of Hippo used as his premise for his development of Original Sin. Reformed theologians rest their theology heavily on the teachings of Augustine. These are facts.


Furthermore the "Wrath Substitution" and "Imputed Righteousness of Christ" teachings directly attack "heart purity as being inherent in salvation."
 
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danalee

Guest
#35
Of course it is possible for a person to be born and remain sinless. If it wasn't then sin is a necessity and we are victims and are not really responsible.

To teach that sin is a consequence of being born is to put the blame on God for your sin.

Sin enters a person "figuratively" because sin is not a material substance but a state of being or an action taken. Sin is moral. Sin (unto death) is simply when one willfully makes the choice to serve that which is not right, in other words they make the choice to do evil. God holds us all accountable for our actions.

Now it is very unlikely that one would never sin because sinning is the path of least resistance. In the absence of understanding how sin truly offends God, how it is truly unloving towards one's neighbour, and in the absence of the true consequences of sin why would an individual choose to refrain from sin (we are not born righteous)? Yet despite sin being universal it does not preclude choice and therefore the full culpability of those who choose to sin.

One simply cannot be reconciled to God whilst one is still in the service of rebellion to God. Likewise an adulterous husband or wife cannot find reconciliation with the one they married unless they forsake the adultery.

Sinners must repent of their sin, forsake their sin, and yield their heart in truth to God. They must turn from their selfishness and yield themselves to God. This is the only way that genuine salvation can be found.

Salvation is not found in theologies and dogmas which excuse an ongoing filthy heart condition. Such theologies and dogma in fact deny the cleansing power of the blood of Christ. They deny genuine salvation and promote a counterfeit which easily deceives a multitude.

Thank you for answering my questions.
 
L

LT

Guest
#36
You have thrown reason out the window. You cannot be guilty of something you did not do.

The source of the imputed guilt of all mankind "in Adam" is a direct result of a mistranslation in the Latin Vulgate (which I outlined above) which Augustine of Hippo used as his premise for his development of Original Sin. Reformed theologians rest their theology heavily on the teachings of Augustine. These are facts.


Furthermore the "Wrath Substitution" and "Imputed Righteousness of Christ" teachings directly attack "heart purity as being inherent in salvation."
Better for a man to say "I do not understand the mysteries of God", and submit to the weight of Scripture,
than to make yourself sovereign, and tell God how it should be (that people can only be held responsible for their personal sins.)
 
L

LT

Guest
#37
If 'heart purity' is the only obtainable salvation, then why did Christ die? If man had a way to save himself already, then why did Christ say that He is the Way?

This whole thing boils down to humanism, where man is in control of his own destiny,
vs
what the Bible says, where God alone has control.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#38
Better for a man to say "I do not understand the mysteries of God", and submit to the weight of Scripture,
than to make yourself sovereign, and tell God how it should be (that people can only be held responsible for their personal sins.)
All you offer is unsubstantiated off the cuff rhetoric as a response?

That speaks volumes to truth of your position. Original Sin is very easy to refute with Scripture, common sense and a cursory look at theological history.

The weight of Scripture does not support the notion of being "born a sinner." That is why this doctrine did not become accepted as orthodox until there was the Catholic Church structure in which professional theologians like Augustine could thrive.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#39
That is quite alright. It is very rare that those who promote being "born a sinner" as truth will even attempt to directly engage what I write. Usually they will dance around my writings or ignore them altogether.

Your silence speaks volumes to those who seriously wish to examine the issue.
Promote being born a sinner... Its a fact. Not something that needs to be promoted.

What do babies care about? Themselves and their flesh. When do they learn that this is the method of their sin, caving into this desire? Not until they come to Christ. Sometimes never...

Sin starts right away, at the first breath.

All you have to do is look back on your own life to know this.
 
L

LT

Guest
#40
All you offer is unsubstantiated off the cuff rhetoric as a response?

That speaks volumes to truth of your position. Original Sin is very easy to refute with Scripture, common sense and a cursory look at theological history.

The weight of Scripture does not support the notion of being "born a sinner." That is why this doctrine did not become accepted as orthodox until there was the Catholic Church structure in which professional theologians like Augustine could thrive.
I care little for the words of Augustine, Calvin, or even Luther.
I care for the Word of God, who declares all mankind as guilty.

You have not refuted original sin with Scripture yet. Where are these verses you claim?