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A
This had a delightful unexpected result. I got to find a few "Ain't I perfect" folks that I haven't ignored yet. Thank you.
First, I didn't know why I couldn't understand why I never could get what some were saying. (Ever notice how long it takes them to defend their position, but after all the time they take, the position isn't any clearer than it was to start with?)
Second, now I understand it wasn't me being particularly dumb at the time.
So, yay! Less time spent trying to understand senselessness. Thank you!
First, I didn't know why I couldn't understand why I never could get what some were saying. (Ever notice how long it takes them to defend their position, but after all the time they take, the position isn't any clearer than it was to start with?)
Second, now I understand it wasn't me being particularly dumb at the time.
So, yay! Less time spent trying to understand senselessness. Thank you!
J
I logged back on, thinking the tweak a blog post I made of this thread, as it speaks to the Christians of Hebrews and their struggles, how, when we fall short and despair, we should not despair, as we are sometimes chastised by the Lord for our sin, as well a suffer worldly tribulations: nonetheless, that we are children of our faithful Father, never to be cast off, though we may suffer, have weakness and doubts. The video is a great teaching of this, densely scriptural. I added this to the blog post,
Come to find, of the following gem of a video, in words of one of my favorite preachers of old, that this problem has existed for sometime, clearly, to have been addressed in olden days. But in this old sermon, it is pointed out the clarity in scripture our relationship as children of God, even of being blessed by chastisement for our sins, to strengthen and further purify us, but never cast off by our faithful and holy Father, we His children by writ of holy promise, that we of the Spirit are works in progress, in the Refiner's fire, and never to despair of our salvation.
Hebrews 12:5-8 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him; For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Come to find, of the following gem of a video, in words of one of my favorite preachers of old, that this problem has existed for sometime, clearly, to have been addressed in olden days. But in this old sermon, it is pointed out the clarity in scripture our relationship as children of God, even of being blessed by chastisement for our sins, to strengthen and further purify us, but never cast off by our faithful and holy Father, we His children by writ of holy promise, that we of the Spirit are works in progress, in the Refiner's fire, and never to despair of our salvation.
Hebrews 12:5-8 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him; For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Hmm..
Matthew 23:23-4 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees [those who promote traditions over truth] , hypocrites! for ye pay tithe [interesting...] and have omitted [meaning excluded; left out] the weightier matters of the law: judgment [right/good vs wrong/evil in God's eyes], mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave [them] undone. Ye blind guides [meaning can't see], which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel [those who fixate on minor issues and completely overlook major issues]."
Judgment
Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."
Mercy
John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more [means stop sinning].
John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more [means stop it], lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Faith
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
John 3:18-19 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness [sinfulness] rather than the Light [sinlessness], for their deeds were evil [they rather continue in their sin than actually follow Christ]
Sinless Perfection = "I have never sinned (I am not guilty of breaking God's law). I do not need forgiveness or a savior."
Sinless Perfection =/= "I have been forgiven (I was once guilty of breaking God's law) and through Christ's strength I (eventually) sin no more."
Grace =/= Licence to sin for a guilty conscience ("I can't stop sinning so Christ's blood covers my sinfulness")
Grace = Power Salvation through cleared conscience for those who believe ("I can do all things through Christ's strength"; Christ's blood cleanses me of my sinfulness")
Matthew 23:23-4 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees [those who promote traditions over truth] , hypocrites! for ye pay tithe [interesting...] and have omitted [meaning excluded; left out] the weightier matters of the law: judgment [right/good vs wrong/evil in God's eyes], mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave [them] undone. Ye blind guides [meaning can't see], which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel [those who fixate on minor issues and completely overlook major issues]."
Judgment
Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."
Mercy
John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more [means stop sinning].
John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more [means stop it], lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Faith
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
John 3:18-19 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness [sinfulness] rather than the Light [sinlessness], for their deeds were evil [they rather continue in their sin than actually follow Christ]
Sinless Perfection = "I have never sinned (I am not guilty of breaking God's law). I do not need forgiveness or a savior."
Sinless Perfection =/= "I have been forgiven (I was once guilty of breaking God's law) and through Christ's strength I (eventually) sin no more."
Grace =/= Licence to sin for a guilty conscience ("I can't stop sinning so Christ's blood covers my sinfulness")
Grace = Power Salvation through cleared conscience for those who believe ("I can do all things through Christ's strength"; Christ's blood cleanses me of my sinfulness")
No dear sir. You are not reading the passage at face value and believing it. Three things you are ignoring in that passage.
#1 - he that suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin.
#2. - as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind:
#3 - he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, bu to the will of God.
Questions on each point above:
#1 - so if he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, then how exactly can they have ceased if they have not ceased from sin?
#2 - if Christ suffered in the flesh in doing good we are to do the same thing, how exactly can one go against that?
#3 - we are to no longer live according the lusts of the flesh but to God but we can also live in them on occasion?
#1 - he that suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin.
#2. - as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind:
#3 - he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, bu to the will of God.
Questions on each point above:
#1 - so if he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, then how exactly can they have ceased if they have not ceased from sin?
#2 - if Christ suffered in the flesh in doing good we are to do the same thing, how exactly can one go against that?
#3 - we are to no longer live according the lusts of the flesh but to God but we can also live in them on occasion?
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I keep hearing this accusation, But I have yet to see ANYONE profess this.
when are you legalists going to stop making false accusations, and start humbling yourself and trying to find out what people really believe.
these programmed responses I have been hearing for decades now are so old, they have absolutely no power at all. other than to make the person who uses them look spoonfed.
when are you legalists going to stop making false accusations, and start humbling yourself and trying to find out what people really believe.
these programmed responses I have been hearing for decades now are so old, they have absolutely no power at all. other than to make the person who uses them look spoonfed.
E
if you go back and look, it was a major issue in the OT. Jesus fought this very thing when he walked the earth.
It is men trying to be spiritual. and so afraid of sin, they add all the external rules and regulations (like do not listen to rock and roll or read Steven King) to the commands, so they do not break the real commands (make it harder) from whence we get all of the extra add on laws Jesus purposely broke while he walked the earth and offended the religious.
it is one of them that seems good at first. but after years. these man mad laws become part of Gods laws (as we saw in Israel and see today) and people start seeing themselves as so righteous, because they follow all these laws. they think they are sinless, or at least so righteous, God will save them as along as they do not fall.
It is men trying to be spiritual. and so afraid of sin, they add all the external rules and regulations (like do not listen to rock and roll or read Steven King) to the commands, so they do not break the real commands (make it harder) from whence we get all of the extra add on laws Jesus purposely broke while he walked the earth and offended the religious.
it is one of them that seems good at first. but after years. these man mad laws become part of Gods laws (as we saw in Israel and see today) and people start seeing themselves as so righteous, because they follow all these laws. they think they are sinless, or at least so righteous, God will save them as along as they do not fall.
I don't believe in sinless perfection. Paul gave us a set of verses that confirm he couldn't do it because he lived in sinful flesh. All of this is in present tense, not past tense.
Romans 7:14-25 (KJV) [SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. [SUP]15[/SUP]For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. [SUP]16 [/SUP]If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Yes, this scripture is complicated, I know. But, it speaks to Paul's current status as an apostle & he admits as long as we live in our fleshly bodies, we will fall into sin. We even see examples in scripture where Paul calls the high priest a "whited wall", then repents of it when rebuked. The only one who had sinless perfection was Jesus, & he did that while still under the Law.
I wish I could be that perfect..... but I'll never see it till I see Jesus face to face.
Romans 7:14-25 (KJV) [SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. [SUP]15[/SUP]For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. [SUP]16 [/SUP]If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Yes, this scripture is complicated, I know. But, it speaks to Paul's current status as an apostle & he admits as long as we live in our fleshly bodies, we will fall into sin. We even see examples in scripture where Paul calls the high priest a "whited wall", then repents of it when rebuked. The only one who had sinless perfection was Jesus, & he did that while still under the Law.
I wish I could be that perfect..... but I'll never see it till I see Jesus face to face.
In Romans chapter 7, Paul was primarily talking about his experience as a Jew who struggled to obey the Law before he was a Christian. For he gives the solution to struggling with sin at the end of the chapter. That solution is Jesus Christ. For he says, thank God thru Jesus Christ. Also, if Paul was talking from his experience as a Christian, then we would have a contradiction in Scripture. For in Romans 7:14, Paul says he is sold under sin. Yet, in Romans 8:1, Paul says he is free from sin. So which is it? Does Paul have a split personality? Now, you may not be OSAS, but I can tell you what the OSAS proponent will think in this situation, though. For they think Romans 7:25 is their solution. They think it says that a believer can sin in the flesh and yet in their spirit they do not sin. However, if that was true then why does Romans 8:1 say that if we walk after the Spirit (And not after the flesh) you are not under the Condemnation? How does the OSAS proponent get around Romans 8:1 with the thinking they can walk after the flesh and yet not be under the Condemnation? For Romans 8:13 says that if one walks after the flesh, they will die.
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It talks about suffering as Christ suffered. And suffering brings patience etc etc.
It does not say they are sinless. It says they no longer spend their lives trying to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. HUGE difference.
lol. Christ did not suffer to do Good, when you KNOW LOVE as God KNOWS LOVE, doing good is not painfull, in fact, doing bad is painfull (it is against your nature, which is love) doing good becomes natural. and in fact. we are happy (blessed) when we do it.
again, you do not understand what true love is, that is why you will not understand this until you repent.
see here you go again with your strawman. If I say do not go above 55 miles an hour. and you trust me, and do everything you can to obey that law. but one day you end up late for work. and your flesh tells you if you go 70 MPH you will not be late, and it will be ok, and YOU SUCCUMB.
Have you done something so evil you will be kicked out of my (Gods) family)
You see Scripture says if you break the LEAST of the law, your guilty of the WHOLE law. So in that moment when you broke the 55 MPH speed limit, you just because a murderer, an adulterer, a fornicator, a liar, one who direspects his parents, and does not love God.
It is a HUGE difference is saying it is OK to fall. than saying I will not be to PROUD to say I will never fall.
When are you going to get rid of your pride?
It does not say they are sinless. It says they no longer spend their lives trying to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. HUGE difference.
lol. Christ did not suffer to do Good, when you KNOW LOVE as God KNOWS LOVE, doing good is not painfull, in fact, doing bad is painfull (it is against your nature, which is love) doing good becomes natural. and in fact. we are happy (blessed) when we do it.
again, you do not understand what true love is, that is why you will not understand this until you repent.
see here you go again with your strawman. If I say do not go above 55 miles an hour. and you trust me, and do everything you can to obey that law. but one day you end up late for work. and your flesh tells you if you go 70 MPH you will not be late, and it will be ok, and YOU SUCCUMB.
Have you done something so evil you will be kicked out of my (Gods) family)
You see Scripture says if you break the LEAST of the law, your guilty of the WHOLE law. So in that moment when you broke the 55 MPH speed limit, you just because a murderer, an adulterer, a fornicator, a liar, one who direspects his parents, and does not love God.
It is a HUGE difference is saying it is OK to fall. than saying I will not be to PROUD to say I will never fall.
When are you going to get rid of your pride?