Calvinism and Tulip theology

[Sagart]

That pastor is wrong, I for one have never read anything by Calvin and I read the first book you mentioned and I did not see it. Then I did a study on man and God's view of man, then I realized that if it were not for God I would of never even gave Him a second thought. I realized that it was not my faith that saved me it was God's grace, because with out it I would never believe, because of my spiritual blindness, loving darkness rather than the light. Then the song amazing grace made complete sense to me, I thought I understood it, but I didn't.

One need not read anything written by Calvin to be exposed to, and influenced by, his theology. Moreover, no one is denying that we are saved by grace through faith. God’s grace is the dynamic of God by which He saves us from sin and its consequences through our faith in Christ.

To say none of this came about until the 16th century is historically wrong, Augustus was in the 4th century and he had taught God's election and to say that it wasn't until the 4th century that this was discover is wrong as well, because Paul taught God's unconditional election, Peter taught that it is by the foreknowledge of the Father as does James, but it was Jesus that brought it to the New Covenant believers. But God's always chose people in many different ways, all because He wanted to it had nothing to do with anyone doing good or bad. He chose Abram and idolator and his offspring, He chose David as king and to be the human line of Jesus. So God has always elected people to be something, do something all because it's His nature. Jesus taught that no one comes to Him unless the Father draws him, Jesus also taught that the Father grants spiritual life by the Spirit and the flesh is of no help in that process. Sure I could post a bunch of Scripture but if you were/are a pastor that studied the Word of God you have already read them. If you don't believe them that's, fine but to say them don't exist is a denial of the Word of God.

I did not write that “none of this came about until the 16th century;” I wrote that “The doctrines known today as the five points of Calvinism were first conceived in the 16th century.” Augustine (not Augustus), bishop of Hippo, taught what he believed to be the biblical teaching of election (which was markedly different from what Calvin subsequently taught), but he did not teach or in any way demonstrate an awareness of any of the doctrines known today as the five points of Calvinism.

 

[Sagart]

Ephesians 2:8,9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith---and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast". This is from the Word of God. Our faith comes from God as a gift. If our faith is a gift from God doesnt it mean that God chooses who has faith? It doesnt say that this gift of faith is given to everyone. We cannot reveive a gift unless it is specifically given to us. Which means God chooses whom He gives it too.

Paul wrote in Greek, not English, and Greek nouns, pronouns, adjectives, participles, the definite article (there is no indefinite article in Greek) and some numerals are declined to express number, case, and gender.

Eph. 2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, Θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (NASB.1995)

In this sentence, the word πίστεως (faith) is a feminine noun; the word τοῦτο (that) is a neuter (rather than feminine) demonstrative pronominal adjective—and in Greek, adjectives must agree with the noun that they modify in number, case, and gender. Hence A. T. Robertson writes on page 704 of his grammar, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, that in Eph. 2:8 “there is no reference to πίστεως in τοῦτο, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before.” Therefore, it is difficult to argue that, according to Eph. 2:8, faith is a gift of God.

 

[Sac49]

Paul wrote in Greek, not English, and Greek nouns, pronouns, adjectives, participles, the definite article (there is no indefinite article in Greek) and some numerals are declined to express number, case, and gender.

Eph. 2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, Θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (NASB.1995)

In this sentence, the word πίστεως (faith) is a feminine noun; the word τοῦτο (that) is a neuter (rather than feminine) demonstrative pronominal adjective—and in Greek, adjectives must agree with the noun that they modify in number, case, and gender. Hence A. T. Robertson writes on page 704 of his grammar, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, that in Eph. 2:8 “there is no reference to πίστεως in τοῦτο, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before.” Therefore, it is difficult to argue that, according to Eph. 2:8, faith is a gift of God.

Then do explain what the "gift" that is not "of yourselves" "by God" is refering.

 

[Ariel82]

Ephesians 2:8,9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith---and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast". This is from the Word of God. Our faith comes from God as a gift. If our faith is a gift from God doesnt it mean that God chooses who has faith? It doesnt say that this gift of faith is given to everyone. We cannot reveive a gift unless it is specifically given to us. Which means God chooses whom He gives it too.

You can get a gift in the mail and stamp "return to sender" unopened.

The parable of the 4 types of soil shows that God plants the seed in many different types of hearts and not all receive it and bear fruit: a faith of Christ redeeming work unto salvation.

PS I agree that faith is a gift of God.

 

[Ariel82]

One need not read anything written by Calvin to be exposed to, and influenced by, his theology. Moreover, no one is denying that we are saved by grace through faith. God’s grace is the dynamic of God by which He saves us from sin and its consequences through our faith in Christ.



I did not write that “none of this came about until the 16th century;” I wrote that “The doctrines known today as the five points of Calvinism were first conceived in the 16th century.” Augustine (not Augustus), bishop of Hippo, taught what he believed to be the biblical teaching of election (which was markedly different from what Calvin subsequently taught), but he did not teach or in any way demonstrate an awareness of any of the doctrines known today as the five points of Calvinism.

So what did Augustine teach about election?

 

[FranC]

The limited atonement is the most unbiblical of these, its so easily refuted as someone already pointed out.

But what I like to ask about this time around is the perseverence of the saints.
I feel like its a mind trick being played on people, they are being told that the saints will persevere, dont worry about it, but then on the other hand if you dont stop sinning you arent one of the elect.
Naturally this will cause people who join these congregations to clean up their act, atleast on the surface.

I've listened to someone like James White debates on this topic, surely I can see he is well educated in many religions and traditions, but I just cant get past the feeling that this grace lottery system is just all about making people feel special and elect.

I can also understand how someone can look at calvinism and say that its great God is in control of everything, everything has a purpose we are in good hands etc. That all sounds good I guess, but there sure is a lot of wickedness in the world and id hate to pin that on God by saying He allows it for X unknown reason.

As negative as my posts come off as, dont get me wrong I'd love to be a calvinist, its a care free system, but I just cant see it. I'll keep on praying and investigating tho.

You'd love to be a Calvinist?
Why?
You'd NEVER be sure of your salvation!!

Since the choice is not YOURS...

 

[Ariel82]

Nicodemus should have been capable of deducing from Scripture John 3:10 and following. IOW he didn't need a proof text stating what Jesus said word for word, so in conclusion none need a proof text to deduce from Scripture that Jesus only died for the sins of His people, who are in every tribe and nation, a.k.a. "the world".

I'm wary of people who cannot see this truth and need a "proof text" when the evidence is insurmountable otherwise.

That isn't even a logical argument.

You just string assertation and assumptions together as your "proof" and it wouldn't hold up if a two year old blew on it.

1. The text is about being born again and Jesus was saying Old Nic should have been able to understand the concept from scriptures but he didn't.
2. Jesus didn't tell old nic "too bad, so sad" he actually explained the concept of being born again.

3. How does a passage about Jesus explaining to Nic about being born again, "prove" that when the Bible says the "whole world" it only means God's elect in all nations?

Limited atonement, limits God.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, just as God let's it rain and the sun shine on both sinner and saint.

Rejecting limited atonement does not mean I accept the false accusation of universalism.

God is much more powerful and wise than we can ever be.

We look at our own futures and see maybe two or three paths.

God looks and sees a lol the possibilities for all of the world.

He sees the crossroads in our lives and knows which path if left alone we would chose. (by His grace he sometimes intervenes before we fall into a pit, but other times he lets us fall and waits for us to cry out to Him before rescuing us)

Satan and his minions also see our lives and our past choices and they set up temptaions to lead us astray from the path God wants us to walk.

Satan thought he won when he got people to nail Jesus to the Cross, but what Satan didn't know and cant plan for is God's will and His ways.

God changed the rules by making a covenant of Grace with humanity.

Agape love given by God and made manifest through His People are changing the world and the destinies of many who encounter it's life giving water. God's elect are those who walk according to the light of God, washed clean by the Blood of the Lamb, lead by the Holy Spirit to set the captives free.

 

[Marano]

Ephesians 2:8,9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith---and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast". This is from the Word of God. Our faith comes from God as a gift. If our faith is a gift from God doesnt it mean that God chooses who has faith? It doesnt say that this gift of faith is given to everyone. We cannot reveive a gift unless it is specifically given to us. Which means God chooses whom He gives it too.

This, faith is a gif of God, He gives it to whom He wants to.

 

[Sac49]

Twhis, faith is a gif of God, He gives it to whom He wants to.

Yes, that is what i said. So since this is what i said i was wondering why i cannot use that verse as a defense of my argument? Since our faith is given us by God and He chooses who He gives it too then we can also say we are "elected" by God. He is "electing" who He gives faith too.

 

[Marano]

Yes, that is what i said. So since this is what i said i was wondering why i cannot use that verse as a defense of my argument? Since our faith is given us by God and He chooses who He gives it too then we can also say we are "elected" by God. He is "electing" who He gives faith too.

Absolutely I agree with you.

 

[Sac49]

You can get a gift in the mail and stamp "return to sender" unopened.

The parable of the 4 types of soil shows that God plants the seed in many different types of hearts and not all receive it and bear fruit: a faith of Christ redeeming work unto salvation.

PS I agree that faith is a gift of God.

The easiest way i can explain the "soil" in the parable by Jesus is that the "good soil" that accepts the Word of God is a heart that is prepared by God. Unless God prepares the heart the Word will be rejected. Only the heart prepared by God will accept the Word.

 

[Sac49]

Absolutely I agree with you.

Oops sorry i got my replies all mixed up. It was someone else who said Eph 2:8 cannot be used. Sorry, please forgive me.

 

[Rockrz]

What's a Calvanist?
And who's Calvan?

Apparently they were religious rappers from the dark ages.

I think their hit song was...

"Who can be saved, but only a few
Don't do as you do, do as we do

No need to get uptight
only what we teach is right"

And, I think they wore their robes down in the back...

 

[FreeNChrist]

Then do explain what the "gift" that is not "of yourselves" "by God" is refering.

Salvation.

 

[Sac49]

Salvation.

True we are given the gift of salvation but we are also given the gift of faith to accept it.

 

[FreeNChrist]

True we are given the gift of salvation but we are also given the gift of faith to accept it.

Therein lies the "rub". What would it say about the character of a God who would withhold "gifting" to some the very faith needed for salvation?

 

[Ariel82]

The easiest way i can explain the "soil" in the parable by Jesus is that the "good soil" that accepts the Word of God is a heart that is prepared by God. Unless God prepares the heart the Word will be rejected. Only the heart prepared by God will accept the Word.

I AGREE that God prepares the soil. However, salvation is offered to the three other types of soil also.

Jesus died for everyone, but not everyone's heart accepts his free gift of redemption.

 

[valiant]

I AGREE that God prepares the soil. However, salvation is offered to the three other types of soil also.

Jesus died for everyone, but not everyone's heart accepts his free gift of redemption.

therefore His atonement is limited to those who do

 

[Rockrz]

therefore His atonement is limited to those who do

But, God is not th One limiting the atonement... people are.

Those that reject what Jesus has done for them have limited themselves to going to hell seeing there are only two options... accept Jesus or not.

 

[notuptome]

True we are given the gift of salvation but we are also given the gift of faith to accept it.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger