Catholic believe pope is infallible

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Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
793
158
43
#21
As notuptome stated, Catholics believe that the Pope is only infallible only "ex cathedra" - when he is making official statements regarding church matters/beliefs, etc., otherwise, he's just as prone to errors as anyone else.

I'm not sure if this concept holds true of the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs as well (??).

Just a note - Catholics do not worship Mary, nor do they pray to her - she, like the saints, does act as an intercessor, but no Catholic is required to ask for her intercession. Not saying I'm for or against the idea, just stating fact. That said, I think there's a very fine line between 'praying to Mary' and 'asking for her intercession.' And, yes, before sending a bazillion posts or opening up a can of worms, I'm aware of the Protestant concept of 'no intercessor but Jesus.'

As an aside, RC priests do not marry on the preface that Jesus was never married (well, guess it depends on who you talk to) - that said, Catholic priests who follow the Eastern Rite (i.e. Ukraine Catholic Church, Polish National Catholic Church) may marry before they are ordained. If their spouse dies after they are ordained, they may not remarry. Back in college my Russian teacher's father was the local Ukraine Catholic priest.

As far as a Pope goes - up until the late middle ages (I forget the year), the only requirement for the office was that the person had to be male and Catholic - that's it. I think a few early Popes were married. In many ways, in the early church, it was more a political office than a religious one - at one time, the Pope was more powerful than any emperor or king so many families from various families of nobility installed "their man" in the office (the 'di Fieschi' family, a line of Italian nobility, had a few Popes in it). he was looked at as a great and powerful ally to have in times of war.

Yes, Pre-Vatican II belief (not "official doctrine" as far as I know, but was certainly taught as if it were) was that there was no salvation outside the Catholic church. I suspect that's an old concept stemming from the days of the Protestant Reformation and was used as a sort of "scare tactic" to ensure that no one even thought of leaving.

That, of course, is not the view today, so that's why I don't think it was ever an official doctrine.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
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#22
I ask my friend why you believe Mary hear your pray, he said, it doesn't mattes what you say, that fact is Mary help me a lot.

The problem is how he prove that the help come from Mary
The bible...There is 1 (one) mediator between God and men.....the man Christ Jesus....

1+0=1<--JESUS
1+anything = more than 1 and is false.....
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#23
As notuptome stated, Catholics believe that the Pope is only infallible only "ex cathedra" - when he is making official statements regarding church matters/beliefs, etc., otherwise, he's just as prone to errors as anyone else.

I'm not sure if this concept holds true of the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs as well (??).

Just a note - Catholics do not worship Mary, nor do they pray to her - she, like the saints, does act as an intercessor, but no Catholic is required to ask for her intercession. Not saying I'm for or against the idea, just stating fact. That said, I think there's a very fine line between 'praying to Mary' and 'asking for her intercession.' And, yes, before sending a bazillion posts or opening up a can of worms, I'm aware of the Protestant concept of 'no intercessor but Jesus.'

As an aside, RC priests do not marry on the preface that Jesus was never married (well, guess it depends on who you talk to) - that said, Catholic priests who follow the Eastern Rite (i.e. Ukraine Catholic Church, Polish National Catholic Church) may marry before they are ordained. If their spouse dies after they are ordained, they may not remarry. Back in college my Russian teacher's father was the local Ukraine Catholic priest.

As far as a Pope goes - up until the late middle ages (I forget the year), the only requirement for the office was that the person had to be male and Catholic - that's it. I think a few early Popes were married. In many ways, in the early church, it was more a political office than a religious one - at one time, the Pope was more powerful than any emperor or king so many families from various families of nobility installed "their man" in the office (the 'di Fieschi' family, a line of Italian nobility, had a few Popes in it). he was looked at as a great and powerful ally to have in times of war.

Yes, Pre-Vatican II belief (not "official doctrine" as far as I know, but was certainly taught as if it were) was that there was no salvation outside the Catholic church. I suspect that's an old concept stemming from the days of the Protestant Reformation and was used as a sort of "scare tactic" to ensure that no one even thought of leaving.

That, of course, is not the view today, so that's why I don't think it was ever an official doctrine.
Good post, though a lot do pray to Mary and the saints not sure where you got that info from, but the Roman Catholic they do.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#24
The bible...There is 1 (one) mediator between God and men.....the man Christ Jesus....

1+0=1<--JESUS
1+anything = more than 1 and is false.....
yup and if there is help, come from the devil. Several years ago I read in Indonesian news paper a catholic testified heal from cancer after praying rosary to Mary 1500 time.
I believe it is the power of the devil. In Moses time, when he turn a stick to snake, the shaman did the same. Demon can also make miracle
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
1,099
41
48
#25
You better read MARK; 3;22-30 and ask God to forgive you, because according to scripture, he will not in this world or the world to come.
 
W

WingsOfFidelity

Guest
#26
i do not know if true Christian worship Mary

as far as I am centain, every Christian denomination declare Bible as the only text book, catholic use tradition and bible
I beg the differ. Many other Christian churches also use tradition. It's not only the catholic church. This is one reason why my husband and I do not attend a physical church.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#27
You better read MARK; 3;22-30 and ask God to forgive you, because according to scripture, he will not in this world or the world to come.
That's interesting to drive out a demon staff is quite different than the demon entering into a staff is a whole another story.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#28
Good post, though a lot do pray to Mary and the saints not sure where you got that info from, but the Roman Catholic they do.
I do not know english version but in the official catholic web in indonesia, there is a pray direct to Mary

Doa Penyerahan Kepada Maria
Madah Bakti, 1991, No. 52
Santa Maria, Bunda Tuhan kami Yesus Kristus, engkaulah Ratu dunia termulia. sudilah engkau menjadi ratu kami semua. Tunjukanlah kepada kami jalan menuju kesucian dan bimbinglah kami supaya jangan tersesat.
Kuasailah budi kami, supaya kami hanya mencari yang benar.
Kuasailah kehendak kami, supaya kami hanya menginginkan yang baik.
Kuasailah hati kami, supaya kami saling mengasihi sebagi saudara.
Kuasailah diri kami masing-masing dan segenap anggota keluarga.
Kuasailah segenap warga masyarakat, segala bangsa dan pembesar-pembesar dunia.
Sudilah engkau menjadi tali pengikat mereka semua dalam persatuan yang teguh.
Kuasailah seluruh umat manusia.
Bukakanlah jalan iman bagi mereka yang belum mengenal Putramu, Yesus.
Bantulah agar segala bangsa bersatu padu, hidup rukun dan damai.
Naungilah seluruh umat manusia, lebih-lebih yang dianiaya dan dikejar-kejar.
Tabahkanlah mereka di dalam penindasan dan terangilah mereka di dalam kegelapan, agar tetap setia kepada Yesus, Puteramu.
Hantarlah semua permohonan kami kepada Putramu, sang Maharaja kerajaan damai, tempat setiap doa permohonan dikabulkan, setiap beban hati diringankan dan segala kelemahan disembuhkan.
semoga orang yang mengenal kekuasaan-Nya dan menaruh harapan pada-Nya. sekali waktu melihat kemegahan kerajaan Putramu, yang bersama Bapa dan Roh Kudus hidup dan berkuasa, kini dan sepanjang masa. Amin


I used google to translate as below

The prayer of submission to Mary
Madah Bakti, 1991, No. 52

Santa Maria, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, you are the glorious Queen of the world. Be you queen of us all. Show us the way to holiness and guide us not to get lost.
Master our minds, that we may seek only the right.
Strengthen our will, so we just want the good.
Master our hearts, that we love one another as brothers.
Take charge of each and every member of the family.
Strengthen all citizens, all nations and great men of the world.
May you be the ropes of all of them in a firm union.
Master the whole human race.
Pray the path of faith for those who have not known your Son, Jesus.
Help all nations to come together, live in harmony and peace.
Nourish all mankind, especially those who are persecuted and persecuted.
Surrender them in oppression and shine them in darkness, to remain faithful to Jesus, your Son.
Please submit all our requests to your Son, the royal prince of peace, where every prayer of petition is granted, every burden of the heart is lightened and all weaknesses healed.
May those who know His power and put His hope in Him. At times see the splendor of your Son's kingdom, which with the Father and the Holy Spirit lives and reigns, now and throughout time. Amen


If it is intercession, it will say, Mary please pray for me,

if if we want our pastor to pray for us, we not going to say pastor pleas bless me, heal me

we will say pastor pray for me

that is the different between ask to pray and pray to

catholic pray to Mary
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#29
I do not know english version but in the official catholic web in indonesia, there is a pray direct to Mary

Doa Penyerahan Kepada Maria
Madah Bakti, 1991, No. 52
Santa Maria, Bunda Tuhan kami Yesus Kristus, engkaulah Ratu dunia termulia. sudilah engkau menjadi ratu kami semua. Tunjukanlah kepada kami jalan menuju kesucian dan bimbinglah kami supaya jangan tersesat.
Kuasailah budi kami, supaya kami hanya mencari yang benar.
Kuasailah kehendak kami, supaya kami hanya menginginkan yang baik.
Kuasailah hati kami, supaya kami saling mengasihi sebagi saudara.
Kuasailah diri kami masing-masing dan segenap anggota keluarga.
Kuasailah segenap warga masyarakat, segala bangsa dan pembesar-pembesar dunia.
Sudilah engkau menjadi tali pengikat mereka semua dalam persatuan yang teguh.
Kuasailah seluruh umat manusia.
Bukakanlah jalan iman bagi mereka yang belum mengenal Putramu, Yesus.
Bantulah agar segala bangsa bersatu padu, hidup rukun dan damai.
Naungilah seluruh umat manusia, lebih-lebih yang dianiaya dan dikejar-kejar.
Tabahkanlah mereka di dalam penindasan dan terangilah mereka di dalam kegelapan, agar tetap setia kepada Yesus, Puteramu.
Hantarlah semua permohonan kami kepada Putramu, sang Maharaja kerajaan damai, tempat setiap doa permohonan dikabulkan, setiap beban hati diringankan dan segala kelemahan disembuhkan.
semoga orang yang mengenal kekuasaan-Nya dan menaruh harapan pada-Nya. sekali waktu melihat kemegahan kerajaan Putramu, yang bersama Bapa dan Roh Kudus hidup dan berkuasa, kini dan sepanjang masa. Amin


I used google to translate as below

The prayer of submission to Mary
Madah Bakti, 1991, No. 52

Santa Maria, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, you are the glorious Queen of the world. Be you queen of us all. Show us the way to holiness and guide us not to get lost.
Master our minds, that we may seek only the right.
Strengthen our will, so we just want the good.
Master our hearts, that we love one another as brothers.
Take charge of each and every member of the family.
Strengthen all citizens, all nations and great men of the world.
May you be the ropes of all of them in a firm union.
Master the whole human race.
Pray the path of faith for those who have not known your Son, Jesus.
Help all nations to come together, live in harmony and peace.
Nourish all mankind, especially those who are persecuted and persecuted.
Surrender them in oppression and shine them in darkness, to remain faithful to Jesus, your Son.
Please submit all our requests to your Son, the royal prince of peace, where every prayer of petition is granted, every burden of the heart is lightened and all weaknesses healed.
May those who know His power and put His hope in Him. At times see the splendor of your Son's kingdom, which with the Father and the Holy Spirit lives and reigns, now and throughout time. Amen


If it is intercession, it will say, Mary please pray for me,

if if we want our pastor to pray for us, we not going to say pastor pleas bless me, heal me

we will say pastor pray for me

that is the different between ask to pray and pray to

catholic pray to Mary
Few things I keyed in on in that prayer is where the mentioning of Jesus to guide us and or the Holy Spirit. seems whacked out to pray to the queen of the world or even they call her the queen of heaven thats bogus, the queen of heaven is Wisdom.
 

lastofall

Senior Member
Aug 26, 2014
609
38
28
#30
Until the universals rid themselves of allowing blasphemous titles which by the way are designated for their chief bishop in Rome which are written within their one square mile of property they rule over (see below) and such like exaltation's they have for men (and women) all over that compound; another words except this entity repents, its sins shall remain left untouched.

Title given to their bishop in Rome:

"Dominus Deus noster papa" - Our Lord God the pope
"Deus alter in terrâ" - Another God on earth
"Idem est dominium Dei et papae" - The dominion of God and the pope is the same

(Matthew 15:13-14)
"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."
 
C

CaptainGoat

Guest
#31
Maybe the pope can swim well? (Not sure what infallible means so I'm assuming it is like the closest sounding word).
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#32
I doubt that all Catholics believe the pope is infallible.

The Catholic church believes that the pope is infallible when speaking from the chair. A practicing Catholic would believe this.
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
793
158
43
#33
Good post, though a lot do pray to Mary and the saints not sure where you got that info from, but the Roman Catholic they do.


I have to agree - no, the RC church teaches that you're not supposed to pray to Mary (or the saints), but many do just that - as I mentioned, there's a very fine line as to what's asking for intercession and direct praying. I would argue that many Catholics probably do not know the difference or are even aware that that's what they're doing.


"Dominus Deus noster papa" - Our Lord God the pope
"Deus alter in terrâ" - Another God on earth
"Idem est dominium Dei et papae" - The dominion of God and the pope is the same

These 'titles' are in no way official - The first, for example, comes from a gloss written on the side of a copied document (the original does not have this gloss) which was done many years (up to 350 in one case ) after the original was written. The point being is that the 'titles' are taken out of the context in which they first appear.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#34
Good post, though a lot do pray to Mary and the saints not sure where you got that info from, but the Roman Catholic they do.


I have to agree - no, the RC church teaches that you're not supposed to pray to Mary (or the saints), but many do just that - as I mentioned, there's a very fine line as to what's asking for intercession and direct praying. I would argue that many Catholics probably do not know the difference or are even aware that that's what they're doing.


"Dominus Deus noster papa" - Our Lord God the pope
"Deus alter in terrâ" - Another God on earth
"Idem est dominium Dei et papae" - The dominion of God and the pope is the same

These 'titles' are in no way official - The first, for example, comes from a gloss written on the side of a copied document (the original does not have this gloss) which was done many years (up to 350 in one case ) after the original was written. The point being is that the 'titles' are taken out of the context in which they first appear.
I'm willing to listen can show from the doctrine of the RC or main web site that states that the RC congregation as not to pray to Mary?
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
793
158
43
#35
OK - I stand corrected......mixed up 'worship' with 'pray'. Catholics may pray to Mary (as well as the saints) to intercede for them, but they may not worship her (or the saints). Big difference.

I would argue that despite this, many do in fact worship her; but I'd also argue that of those, most are probably not even aware that that's what they're actually doing.

My own feeling is that it may be just a matter of time before Mary attains an official status of 'goddess' - the RC church would deny such a thing is possible, but she's already more than halfway there in my opinion. In many Central and South American versions of Catholicism, she has, for all intents and purposes, essentially replaced the former various indigenous 'earth goddesses'.

This concept ties in with a bringing back of the 'divine feminine' into the concept of "God". Won't happen in my lifetime nor my children's children's, but I'd be willing to bet within the next millennium Mary will be worshiped as the goddess by some denominations.

This isn't anything new, by the way. Many cultural legendary folk heroes have attained the status of "god" simply because their followings or 'cult' was so strong after their deaths. I'm thinking here of a lot of the pre-Christian Celtic deities - many were once just legendary hero-kings, but after their deaths, eventually attained the status of 'god'. Mary may end up being no different.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#36
You can find many vids on YouTube and watch the worshipping of idols statues. here's just one. I'm out for the weekend I didn't watch it just posted it but there's many out there.

[video=youtube;glGCaD1fdIY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glGCaD1fdIY[/video]
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#37
it is in her official doctrine

Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church."[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP]
This doctrine was defined dogmatically in the First Vatican Council of 1869–1870, but had been defended before that, existing already in medieval theology and being the majority opinion at the time of the Counter-Reformation.[SUP][3][/SUP]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility
Every Sunday when I walk into my church, I pass a statement describing what my church believes. But it is nonsense. Nobody ever asked what I believed, and I know people of my church have varied beliefs. And I have no doubt people in every church in the world have varied beliefs.
 
Dec 19, 2009
27,513
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#38

The Catholic church believes that the pope is infallible when speaking from the chair. A practicing Catholic would believe this.
No. People who follow Jesus know the pope is not infallible. You can follow Jesus and still be Catholic.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#39
No. People who follow Jesus know the pope is not infallible. You can follow Jesus and still be Catholic.

I have Catholic friends and they are wonderful people but are very misled when it comes to their beliefs. If you are Christian you need to come out of the Catholic church. There are too many false beliefs to stay in that church and give it your support.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
#40
No. People who follow Jesus know the pope is not infallible. You can follow Jesus and still be Catholic.
This immediately puts one at extreme odds with the RCC.
If you don't believe that the Pope is infallible you are in fundamental contravention of the articles of faith of the RCC!
Makes this part a bit difficult:
You can follow Jesus and still be Catholic.
​I would submit not....