catholic religion??

[wit2Christlv]

So I woke up today and this was on my mind and I couldnt go back to sleep... so I was raised Catholic but now Im a Christian so I know a little bit about Catholic faith. I still have family members that are still in that faith and I want to inform them but I want to get some opinions before I do cus one gets real offense if you question their beliefs. Anyways so Catholics pray to other saints including the virgin Mary. But in the Bible Exodus 20:3-5 you shall not have no others gods before me.... Wouldnt that be against Gods law to pray to other saints? and with taking communion every sunday, they require that you be baptisted and have your first communion before you part take and that happens usually when your a kid. In 1Corinthians 11:27-32 ( im not going to post it but please look it up) and it talks about how if you take communion in an unworthy manner then you bring judgement on yourself. Now just because I was baptisted ex as a kid doesnt mean as an adult Im right with the Lord. Back then, yes I would go to church and pray every now and then but I wouldnt say I was right with the Lord. So unknowingly I was bring judgement on myself, right? So shouldnt they explain that more to the people that partake in communion, so they dont bring judgement on themselves. When I started going to Christian church they explained it in detail why we should and shouldnt partake in it. Why doesnt the Catholic church do that? Well some may but the one I used to go to didnt. I didnt become Christian till after I was paralzed. It kind of make me think...

 

[nathan3]

Well, its your family, i would be careful how you " inform them" .. I don't see how your going to talk to them if your asking questions yourself here. You should be sure that your informed yourself and know that your right, before you try to correct some one about this ..

I would just set a good example of love for people. family . If you really think you need to talk to them, just be upfront and honest what you want to talk about, if they say no, then leave it at that. Don't let that bother you.

In the meantime study the Bible an set a good Christian example in ur life.. In time they will maybe seek u out for answers

 

[wit2Christlv]

I know I dont really want to say anything if Im wrong so that was one of the reasons to post this thread so I could get opinions from people that really understand the scriptures. Im still learning but if their faith is teaching them wrong doctrine isnt that part of being a follower of Christ, to help correct wrong teachings? Are should I just leave it to God?

 

[nathan3]

I know I dont really want to say anything if Im wrong so that was one of the reasons to post this thread so I could get opinions from people that really understand the scriptures. Im still learning but if their faith is teaching them wrong doctrine isnt that part of being a follower of Christ, to help correct wrong teachings? Are should I just leave it to God?

From what i have seen since i joined, i would not be asking here, you'll likely end up being sent down the wrong path if you follow some of the things you hear here without really checking it out in the Bible. No one here really, fully understands all the Bible, that's what i have observed . I dont either. So you'll end up with half and 3 quarter answers . that are not even close to the mark in most cases.

If your serious with wanting the answers for those questions, I think your safest bet is to , take time to study everyday, and prayer for understanding, and mean it,. IM sure you'll cover major ground in time.

 

[danschance]

We can't change people's mind easily when it comes to religious beliefs. God can. You can try to witness to them but only the Holy Spirit can change a person's heart. I think prayer and fasting would be a good choice. You could make a list and pray it daily. I was once unsaved but the faithful prayers of my sister were heard in Heaven and here I am today. She rarely spoke to me about her faith. Instead she always invited me to her church, of which I declined a hundred times. Then one the hundred and first time, I agreed to go. God had already transformed my heart before she asked tho.

 

[kenisyes]

Wit2, you have to understand first, that the Catholics teach that Scripture can only be properly interpreted by the "Magisterium". In practice, this amounts to "the Scripture does not mean what it says, it means what we say it says." It is therefore useless to bring up a Scripture argument as you propose. They will simply cite an approved teacher of theirs who disagrees with you, and claim that their teacher came first, so you are the one who is in error.

For example, Catholics do not consider a saint to be a god, therefore Ex. 20 does not apply. As far as I Cor. 11, taking communion unworthily is defined by the Catholics as taking communion in mortal sin, or without keeping the required fast.

Catholicism, according to their own sociologist Andrew Greeley, is as much a sub-culture as it is a church. You cannot pull them out of it, because their entire identity, life script structure, and social life depends on keeping to the practices of their childhood. Ask them how they feel about Jesus. It is a doctrine of the Cath. Ch. that Jesus is the son of God, and that He died for our sins. We all agree on that. The disagreement occurs over whether a man is necessary as an intermediary between Jesus and a saved person.

Most of the people I know who left the church (including me) began to question it as a result of the church breaking faith with them. Typical ways are refusing to acknowledge a divorce from a wife-beating spouse, refusing to acknowledge ministries, etc. There was almost a pattern in South America back in the 1990's, where promotion of a Catholic man to authority in an American based corporation, was routinely followed by his conversion to Pentecostalism. The Catholic insistence on submission is incompatible with the authority his job gave him and put food on his preoviously poor family's table.

 

[vin]

well, friend thank God for the grace of God foe making d right decision 4 I ve come across many catholic members that refuses to drop their believe even after been showed d scriptures u quoted n others.There is nothin u can do 4 God make u to come encounter wit d light so that u can brig ur family members into d light,although it may not be easy,they may quarrel wit u.But go a head n do ur prt n let God do mHis by His spirit,pray b4 speakin 2 anyone of them.For apostle paul wrote 4 necesity is laid upon him 2 preach d gospel n woe unto him if he preacher nt.I think as tis issue is troublin ur mind,probably God speakin 2 u abt tis matter.

 

[Tearose84]

Thank you, kenisyes....that was really informative!

 

[crossnote]

Another angle. I would wait until you are comfortable enough with sharing your faith without becoming all riled up when challenged or mocked. This is very important and is a testimony in and of itself.

 

[SparkleEyes]

I though the OP's statement "I was raised Catholic but now Im a Christian" is interesting. The Catholic faith is based on Christianity, just as is any Protestant faith. BUT....IMO, the Catholic church has really separated themselves from the Christian faith creating, as kenisyes implies, their own culture. The OP was raised Catholic, but doesn't/didn't even think of it as a part of Christianity. Really interesting.

I could go on about things that are "interesting" about the Catholic world, but I won't. Too much material for a platform like this!!

 

[JaumeJ]

I am pasting below the article on the aftermath of a Catholic procession here in Spain, Alicante to be exact. The link and the text in Spanish is being pasted. There is an annual "romeria" where the Catholic participants follow a cloth that they claim to be Veronica's cloth to a chapel outside of Alicante in order to venerate the cloth. In the aftermath of this procession many of the participants went to stores to buy liquor, being so happy. They filled dozens of shopping carts with liquor to have an outdoor drunken bash on a public beach in San Juan outside of Alicante. The article is about the stores denouncing the theft of dozens of shopping carts by these faithful. The article refers to the suspects as adolescents, but you must keep in mind, here in Spain they refer to people up to their late 30's as youths, especially if they have done something wrong.

These people are Catholics celebrating and venerating the alleged cloth of Veronica. I think it safe to say that all of the tens of thousands of Catholic fiestas have the a good number of the celebrants drinking themselves silly or using it for an excuse for whatever pleasures they seek.

The Popes have always been aware of this type of activity, but as long as it keeps Catholics Catholic it appears they do not mind. This is nothing like what we are taught in the Word. All anyone need do is do searches of each Catholic country on their fiesta activities, and he will be abhorred. Similar debauchary is cropping up in many countries to where these people have immigrated in number.



Supermercados denuncian el robo de carros para el botellón a la Guardia Civil
Los comercios cifran en 180 euros cada uno de los elementos sustraídos por los adolescentes
13.04.2013 | 01:20

Supermercados denuncian el robo de carros para el botellón a la Guardia Civil - Informacion.es
Supermercados denuncian el robo de carros para el botellón a la Guardia Civil

Fotos de la noticia
PINO ALBEROLA Suciedad y carros, muchos carros abandonados. Es la estampa que ayer se podía ver en los descampados aledaños a la playa de San Juan, donde el día anterior miles de jóvenes celebraron un macrobotellón tras la romería a la Santa Faz.
Los supermercados están más que hartos de que los jóvenes usen sus carros para cargar las bebidas que después de la romería consumen en la playa. En este sentido, durante la jornada del jueves al menos un establecimiento presentó una denuncia por estos hechos ante la Guardia Civil. "Cada carro cuesta hasta 180 euros y a nosotros nos robaron casi 20 colándose por la parte trasera del supermercado", señalaba la responsable de una superficie de alimentación de San Vicente. Esta trabajadora señaló ayer que las pérdidas, en su caso, ascienden a 2.000 euros y se quejó de la respuesta que obtuvo por parte de la Guardia Civil. "Nos dijeron que el año que viene pongamos un guardia de seguridad".
A la espera de que sean retirados por los equipos de limpieza, trabajadores de algunas superficies comerciales se desplazaron ayer a la zona en furgonetas para recoger sus carros, según relataron ayer algunos testigos. Los restos del enorme botellón también eran patentes ayer a mediodía, con botellas y vasos tirados por los alrededores de la playa de San Juan. Cerca de 200 personas tuvieron que ser atendidas por los equipos de emergencia movilizados con motivo de la Romería.
Las lipotimias y las intoxicaciones etílicas sumaron buena parte de las atenciones que este año se han incrementado, entre otros factores, por el calor.

 

[wit2Christlv]

God is awesome, now I know when I have questions like this go straight to God. He lead me to some scriptures that totally gave me understanding and I met this guy by chance today. Prob a divine appt, but we were just chating it up about the Lord. Anyways thanks everyone for your input but the Lord took care of the answer. Praise God for wisdom and understanding.

 

[Maynard]

so I was raised Catholic but now Im a Christian.

Catholics are Christians, whose origins date back to Christ and his first apostles. Catholics were Christian long before any protestant, obviously. Be careful trying to convert Christians from their church to your own. It's evident from your words above that you do not even know what is Christian. Imagine how you will offend your family when you approach them with this assumption of yours that they are not Christian and telling them to abandon their own Christian faith for yours.


Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world. Have mercy on us.

 

[jb]

In the OP's circumstances, there is a saying that could apply (if they are not already Christians): 'before you can preach the Gospel, you have to live it and if you live it, you won't have preach it.' 1Peter 3v1'...they, without a word, may be won by the conduct...' Yahweh Shalom...

 

[RedTent]

It is wonderful when our eyes are opened to a closer, more truthful walk with our Lord. Sometimes are eyes are opened through seeing the mote in our brother's eye like it says in Matt. It is easier to spot other people's problems than it is to see our own. I see beams in my very own church and shutter at some of the misunderstandings I had very few years ago. Do you suppose I see only clearly now? Don't answer that!!!

My saintly Catholic neighbor has helped me see some things clearly I didn't before, while at the same time stands firm on some things I find absolutely opposite to God's teachings.

We have to be careful we aren't pots who call the kettle black. Just suggest on cc that we clear out everything from our worship that isn't in scripture, and honor all that is! Or to rid ourselves of what is man's ideas and only take on what came from God. Then stand back!!

 

[tielbird]

I think it safe to say that all of the tens of thousands of Catholic fiestas have the a good number of the celebrants drinking themselves silly or using it for an excuse for whatever pleasures they seek.

Sure, it's safe to bash us Catholics. Let's see you bad-mouth some Muslim extremists and let us know how "safe" works out for you.

 

[trukin]

wit2Christlv, i was baptized Catholic myself, as my mom was a devout catholic, but we attended my father's Lutheran church. i attended maybe one or two masses with my mom, so i was never really a practicing Catholic. i became a born again christian in my early 20's. my mom tried desperately to get me to go back to being Catholic but i had to disappoint her. i never really tried to convert her because i knew it would be fruitless. she passsed away some 7 years ago now as well as my father, but i wish i could offer you some advise. i will copy and paste some interesting reading though that i found on Catholic and other faiths.

 

[trukin]

[h=1]Is Roman Catholicism and Christianity the same thing?[/h]
by Matt SlickNo, Roman Catholicism and Christianity are not the same thing. Christianity is properly defined by certain doctrines that are revealed in the Bible. It is not defined by simply saying that as long as you believe in Jesus, you're a Christian. Mormons believe in Jesus, but their Jesus is a brother of the devil in the pre-existence. The Jesus of the Jehovah's Witnesses is Michael the Archangel. So, just saying you believe in Jesus doesn't make you a Christian. This is why the Bible tells us who Jesus really is, God in flesh, creator of the universe. Likewise, there are essential doctrines, and if any of those essential doctrines are violated, then a church would only appear to be Christian but not really be Christian. What are those doctrines? The Bible tells us. Let's take a look.

• There is only one God and you are to serve no other gods (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8).
• Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4).
• Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).
• Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4).
• The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4;Gal. 1:8-9).
• God is a Trinity (Matt. 28:19; 1 Cor. 12:4-6; 2 Cor. 13:14).
• Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Matt. 1:25).

So, someone who is a true Christian will believe these things and not violate them. Roman Catholicism violates two of them (#1 and #4). First of all, by its practice of promoting Mary (and the Saints) to the level of God-like capabilities, they break the commandment to have no other gods before the true and living God. In Roman Catholicism, they say that Mary is the mediatrix (Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 969); Mary made atonement for the sins of man (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, page 213); Mary is the subject of preaching and worship (Vatican Council II, p. 420); etc.
Also, Catholicism violates the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone. Paul the apostle, for example, tells us in Romans 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness." But Roman Catholicism denies that and says, "...so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments," (CCC, par 2068). Also, consider this:
"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).
So, even though Roman Catholicism claims to be Christian and that it is the one true church, it violates the essentials of the Christian faith. It goes beyond what is written in God's word (1 Cor. 4:6). It denies the sole and true sovereignty of the living God by promoting prayer to and the worship of Mary. Also, it denies justification by faith alone in Christ alone. It is not a Christian church.

 

[trukin]

PART 1


[h=1]Roman Catholicism[/h]
by Matt Slick
There is so much about the Catholic Church that is fascinating. They teach many orthodox things, and then they teach so many non orthodox doctrines. Following are some of them in an easy-to-cut-and-paste arrangement. Also, check out the Roman Catholicism section on CARM.

1. Apocrypha
   1. Athanasius (300?-375) excludes apocrypha from canon of scripture: "But since we have made mention of heretics as dead, but of ourselves as possessing the Divine Scriptures for salvation...some few of the simple should be beguiled from their simplicity and purity, by the subtility of certain men, and should henceforth read other books--those called apocryphal--led astray by the similarity of their names with the true books...3...to reduce into order for themselves the books termed apocryphal, and to mix them up with the divinely inspired Scripture...it seemed good to me also, having been urged thereto by true brethren, and having learned from the beginning, to set before you the books included in the Canon, and handed down, and accredited as Divine; to the end that any one who has fallen into error may condemn those who have led him astray; and... 4 There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews;5 Again it is not tedious to speak of the [books] of the New Testament..." [the apocryphal books are excluded!] (Athanasius, Festal Letter 39:2-5)
   2. Jerome (347-420) says Judith, Tobit, Maccabees not scripture: "As, then, the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical Scriptures, so let it read these two volumes for the edification of the people, not to give authority to doctrines of the Church." - (Jerome, Prefaces to the Books of the Vulgate Version of the Old Testament, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs).
   3. Julius Africanus (160 - 240) says the apocrypha book of Susanna is a forgery. "In your sacred discussion with Agnomon you referred to that prophecy of Daniel which is related of his youth. This at that time, as was meet, I accepted as genuine. Now, however, I cannot understand how it escaped you that this part of the book is spurious. For, in sooth, this section, although apart from this it is elegantly written, is plainly a more modern forgery. There are many proofs of this....But a more fatal objection is, that this section, along with the other two at the end of it, is not contained in the Daniel received among the Jews." (Julius Africanus, A Letter to Origen from Africanus About the History of Susanna)
2. Authority
   1. "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ," (CCC par. 85).
   2. " The Church's Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ…” (CCC, par. 88).
   3. “But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me,” (CCC, 119).
   4. "The power which they [catholic bishops] exercise personally in the name of Christ, is proper, ordinary, and immediate, although its exercise is ultimately controlled by the supreme authority of the Church,” (CCC, par. 895).
   5. “Only priests who have received the faculty of absolving from the authority of the Church can forgive sins in the name of Christ,” (CCC, par. 1495).
   6. "The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God." (CCC 816).
3. Baptism saves
   1. ". . Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that 'we too might walk in newness of life,'" (Catechism of the Catholic Church par. 977).
   2. "Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy," (CCC, par. 2020).
   3. But the Bible says:
      1. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast," (Eph. 2:8-9).
      2. "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).
4. Catechism of the Catholic Church
   1. Become a god: CCC 460,, The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature": "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God." "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."
      1. Paste: Become a god: CCC 460, "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."
      2. Article: The CCC paragraph 460 and becoming gods.
   2. Merit Grace unto Eternal Life: CCC 2010, "...Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life."
   3. Merit Grace unto Eternal Life: CCC 2027, "Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods."
   4. Observe the Commandments to attain Salvation: CCC 2068, "The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."
      1. Paste: Observe the Commandments to attain salvation: CCC 2068, "the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."
      2. Counter Verses:
         1. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28).
         2. "For what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).
         3. "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5).
5. Forgiveness
   1. “Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of the forgiveness of sins: it unites us to Christ, who died and rose, and gives us the Holy Spirit,” (CCC 985).
   2. "In the forgiveness of sins, both priests and sacraments are instruments which our Lord Jesus Christ, the only author and liberal giver of salvation, wills to use in order to efface our sins and give us the grace of justification" (CCC 987).
   3. “Reading Sacred Scripture, praying the Liturgy of the Hours and the Our Father - every sincere act of worship or devotion revives the spirit of conversion and repentance within us and contributes to the forgiveness of our sins,” (CCC 1437).
   4. “The sacrament of forgiveness. “…Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification,” (CCC 1446).
   5. “It [penance] allowed the forgiveness of grave sins and venial sins to be integrated into one sacramental celebration,” (CCC 1447).
   6. “…obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance,” (CCC 1453).
6. Grace
   1. "Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it" (CCC, par. 2023).
   2. "...Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life," (CCC 2010).
   3. "Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods," (CCC 2027).
7. Interpretation
   1. "...no one, relying on his own skill, shall,--in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, -- wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,--whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,--hath held and doth hold," (Trent, Session 4, "Decree Concerning the Edition, and the Use, of the Sacred Books")
8. Islam
   1. The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (CCC, par. 841)
9. Justification
   1. "Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy," (CCC, par. 2020).
   2. "If any one saith, that it is an imposture to celebrate masses in honour of the saints, and for obtaining their intercession with God, as the Church intends; let him be anathema. (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 5)
   3. "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).
   4. "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14).
   5. Verses on Justification to counter the RC position
      1. "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,"(Rom. 3:24).
      2. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law,"(Rom. 3:28).
      3. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).
      4. "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5).
      5. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).
      6. "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him," (Rom. 5:9).
      7. "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved," (Rom. 10:9).
      8. "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace," (Rom. 11:6).
      9. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8).
   6. Trent anathematized anyone who claimed assurance of salvation (Canon 14 on Justification), contrary to the Bible (1 John 5:13). In Roman Catholic salvation initial justification is granted to you via baptism (Catechism of the Catholic Church par 2020; 1247), successive sacred rites (CCC 1248), not by faith alone (CCC 1815), but with service (CCC 1816).
   7. Justification can be lost by sinning. To regain the grace of justification you must participate in the sacraments and perform penance (CCC, par. 1446; Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, c. i).
   8. Natural Law
      1. "The specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the creator, is necessary for salvation," (CCC 2036). "The Decalogue contains a privileged expression of the natural law. It is made known to us by divine revelation and by human reason," (CCC 2080).
         1. Are you keeping enough of the law, the natural law (which includes the 10 Commandments) in order to be saved? Gal. 3:10 says, " For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”
         2. CCC 2036 says that you are required to keep the natural law in order to be saved (it is "necessary for salvation"). The Natural Law is the 10 Commandments (CCC 2080). Are you keeping the Natural Law? If you go to confession, then that is an admission that you are not. Therefore, you are lost.
         3. James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all." If are supposed to keep the natural law (because it is necessary for salvation CCC 2036), then you're not allowed to stumble and even one point otherwise you are guilty of breaking all of the law.
         4. 1 Cor. 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
      2. Love is the fulfillment of the Law
         1. The Catholics say that you must keep the Law of Love. Okay, Jesus said that the greatest commandment was to love God (Matt. 22:37-38 from Deut. 6:5). The 2nd greatest is to love your neighbor (Matt. 22:39 from Lev. 19:18). He said that the Law and Prophets were fulfilled in these two Laws. Therefore, to keep the Law of love, you must keep the commandments. You are still teaching being saved by keeping the Law -- even if you say it is faith, working in love, that keeps the Law.

 

[trukin]

PART 2

1. Mary per Catholicism
   1. Mary Full of Grace, According to Luke 1:28, the RCC says "full of grace" in reference to Mary, but in the Greek "full of grace" is "plaras karitos" which is not found in Luke 1:28. Instead it is "kexaritomena" which means "highly favored one".
      1. "Full of Grace" (plaras karitos) is found only in two places in the New Testament: John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
         Acts 6:8, "And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people."
   2. Entrust our cares to Mary: "Holy Mary, Mother of God...we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: 'Let it be to me according to your word.' [Lk 1:38] By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: 'Thy will be done,' (CCC 2677).
   3. Ask Mary to pray for us: "By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the 'Mother of Mercy,' the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender 'the hour of our death' wholly to her care." (CCC 2677).
   4. Mary is Advocate, Helper, Mediatrix: [Mary] "Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.'" (CCC, par. 969)
   5. Mary brings us the gifts of eternal salvation: Mary is "The mother of the members of Christ," (CCC par. 963). She was "Preserved free from all stain of original sin," (CCC, par. 966). She is "Queen over all things" (par. 966).
   6. Mary Delievers our souls: By Mary's prayers, she delivers souls from death (CCC par. 966).
   7. Mary brings us the gifts of Eternal Life: Mary, "...by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.... (CCC par. 969)
   8. Marian prayer is epitome of the gospel: "The Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix" (CCC par. 969).
   9. Marian Prayer: "The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, are an epitome of the whole Gospel," (par. 971).
   10. Pray to Mary: "Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father." (CCC 2679)
   11. Mary taken into heaven: Mary, "...when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven..." (par. 974).
   12. Mary is worshipped: "...when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son..." (Vatican Council II, p. 420). See quote in Context
   13. Mary is 2nd only to Jesus: "Mary has by grace been exalted above all angels and men to a place second only to her Son" (Vatican Council II, p. 421). "This mother...is waiting and preparing your home for you," (Handbook for Todays Catholic, p.31).
   14. Mary sits at the right hand of Christ: "...she is the supreme Minister of the distribution of graces. Jesus "sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high" (Hebrews i. b.). Mary sitteth at the right hand of her Son..." (Pope Pius X, 1835-1914, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum, 14).
2. Mary compare to God
   1. "so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother." (Vatican Website: Encyclical of Pope Leo 13th on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo 13th, 1903-1914)
   2. Mary made atonement for the sins of man: "Christ alone truly offered the sacrifice of atonement on the Cross...In the power of the grace of Redemption merited by Christ, Mary, by her spiritual entering into the sacrifice of her divine son for men, made atonement for the sins of man and (de congruon) merited the application of the redemptive grace of Christ. In this manner she cooperates in the subjective redemption of mankind." (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma4, Ott, page 213).
      1. Paste: Mary made atonement for the sins of man: "...Mary, by her spiritual entering into the sacrifice of her divine son for men, made atonement for the sins of man and (de congruon) merited the application of the redemptive grace of Christ. In this manner she cooperates in the subjective redemption of mankind." (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ott, page 213).
      2. They respond: "Because she said yes to God it changed the world". "Mary's blood was in Christ".
         1. But Mary did not physically atone. To atone requires the blood sacrifice (Lev. 17:11; Heb. 9:22) for sin to be cleansed. So, how did Mary atone, in the biblical sense?
   3. Mary not subject to corruption: "She, by an entirely unique privilege, completely overcame sin by her Immaculate Conception, and as a result she was not subject to the law of remaining in the corruption of the grave, and she did not have to wait until the end of time for the redemption of her body" (Pope Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus, # 5); "her sacred body had never been subject to the corruption of the tomb," (Pope Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus, # 14)
      1. Paste: Mary not subject to corruption: "..she was not subject to the law of remaining in the corruption of the grave, and she did not have to wait until the end of time for the redemption of her body" (Pope Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus, # 5); "her sacred body had never been subject to the corruption of the tomb," (Pope Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus, # 14)
   4. Mary crushed the head of the serpent: "All our hope do we repose in the most Blessed Virgin—in the all fair and immaculate one who has crushed the poisonous head of the most cruel serpent and brought salvation to the world," (Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus).
   5. Mary delivers souls from death: "...You [Mary] conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death." (CCC 966)
   6. Devotion to Mary: "The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary," (CCC. 971).
   7. Mary is full of grace: "The Holy Spirit prepared Mary by his grace. It was fitting that the mother of him in whom "the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" should herself be "full of grace." (CCC 722)
   8. Mary is the all holy one: "By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the 'Mother of Mercy,' the All-Holy One." (CCC 2677)
   9. Mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation: "...by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation...." (CCC par. 969)
   10. Look to Mary: "After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary," (CCC 972).
   11. Mary is Mediatrix: "Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.'" (CCC, par. 969)
   12. Mary is the 2nd Eve: It was she, the second Eve, who, free from all sin, original or personal, and always more intimately united with her Son, offered Him on Golgotha to the Eternal Father for all the children of Adam," (Mystici Corpois Christ, par. 110)
   13. Prayer to Mary: "Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father." (CCC 2679)
   14. Mary hears your prayers: "May the Blessed Virgin hear your every prayer." (Message of John Paul II, read by H. E. Msgr. Francesco Marchisano, Grotto of our Lady of Lourdes in the Vatican Gardens, Saturday, 31 May 2003)
   15. Mary is preparing a home for you: "This mother...is waiting and preparing your home for you" (Handbook for Today's Catholic, p. 31).
   16. Entrusting ourselves to Mary's prayer: "By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: 'Thy will be done,' (CCC 2677).
3. Mary per the Bible
   1. Mary, the very blessed woman, lost her virginity. "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took her as his wife, [SUP]25[/SUP] and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus," (Matt. 1:24-25).
   2. Mary the very blessed woman, needed a savior. Only sinners need saviors: "And Mary said: 'My soul exalts the Lord, [SUP]47[/SUP] And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior,'" (Luke 1:46-47).