Cessationism

[KelbyofGod]

" Most of the help I have received in my life was from others (vs. directly from the Lord) and was from the gifts(storehouse) those others have. Gifts are for edifying, after all. "

I'm posting that as a paraphrase, not a direct quote... because I thought the general ideas profound in their relation to this thread. (i hope I got it close enough to avoid offense)

People argue about whether gifts (spiritual gifts) are still here. When you consider some of the points in that 'quote', it seems much clearer whether they should be or not.


1. "most of the help I have received was from others (vs. directly from the Lord). "

We ALL have needs/shortages/weaknesses. Whether it be a financial need, emotional need, need of guidance/direction, need of wisdom, faith, hope, need to see we're on a wrong path, need of a healing...whatever. God would LOVE to give you the thing you need. But he's a gentleman and won't force it on us.

So... for whatever reason, God often cannot or does not give them to us DIRECTLY .
But he still wants us to have them.... So he uses OTHERS. I would venture to say he has to use others because if he could get it through to us directly, he already would have...and our inability to hear/see/receive in that area is often what caused our problem in the first place.

2. "and was from the gifts(storehouse) those others have."
OTHERS have weaknesses/shortages too, but they're often not the same shortages/weaknesses that WE have. If they happen to be strong (perhaps to the point of abundance) in that area, they can minister that strength or abundance to those who are weaker in those same areas... fulfilling (spiritually) Exodus16: 17-18

"And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less. And when they did mete(compare) it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating.

Our abundance can/should be used to fill the shortage/weakness of another... and vice versa.

3. "Gifts are for edifying, after all. " (I think that one explains itself.)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Depleted]

what do u guys think it means when they accusde them of being drunk? did they mumble in their speech or what was going on there u guys think?

I remember when I was first born again, or when the Lord did some whooooa-cool-man thing for me. I was giddy as a school boy. I was so happy I probably did seem drunk.

 

[Depleted]

I merely brought this up because reformers love to castrate other false profits that fill the airwaves and cable channels but hardly ever take to task their own. I feel the exact same way about Hillsong, Bethel, Steven Furtick, Benny Hinn, and the whole wrecking crew ring leaders of the prosperity message, headed up by Kenneth Copeland.

I am not against preachers being comfortable and blessed, but just how much square feet, how many cars and planes and bank accounts does a preacher need?

I castrate them because they teach a false gospel. I think they're jackasses for ripping off poor people. Worse yet, the damage caused when those people finally realize God isn't healing them.

 

[Depleted]

Don't forget ministries that promote planting a seed to get financial rewards in return; as in the prosperity gospel. Those defrauding con-artists are living in the lap of luxury at believers' expense in the hopes of gaining riches by giving to the ministries. Huge difference between ministers that don't give false promises to gain their earnings that way.

No idea if the people they're conning are believers.

 

[Depleted]

Buy my book is just as evil as give me $50 dollars and you will receive $100 back.

(Making note of who not to ask to buy my book, although my book makes no guarantees. It's just fiction. lol)

 

[Depleted]

Funny, I do not believe in the pre-trib rapture and you label me as such. Until you know what I believe I would appreciate you not projecting what you think I believe on the board.

This is how problems start.

Actually, funnier than you think. You thought I labeled you with one particular flavor.

Didn't label you at all, other than you have a certain eschatology. I've got no idea which version you have. I do know all versions have very few who believe the same thing, but you were talking about Beast, right?

You're right. This is how problems start -- when people don't read/listen to what others said.

 

[beastslayer1970]

Actually, funnier than you think. You thought I labeled you with one particular flavor.

Didn't label you at all, other than you have a certain eschatology. I've got no idea which version you have. I do know all versions have very few who believe the same thing, but you were talking about Beast, right?

You're right. This is how problems start -- when people don't read/listen to what others said.

Thank you for understanding and I see your point.

 

[Dino246]

... Now as for so-called "rowdy inappropriate worship", consider King David when the presence of the Lord arrived. It is right there in scripture. And God approved of his worship!

I agree. What is rowdy to one person is normal to another. One who works in a daycare might have a different perspective on "rowdy" than one who works in a care home or a library. As to "inappropriate", there are cultural standards, personal standards, biblical standards and legal standards. Some of them might even overlap!

I think it's worthwhile not to assume that either term, or their cognates, is automatically indicative of something truly disgusting, illegal, offensive to most, or "sinful". It's probably better to identify specific behaviours and avoid the broad-brushing, which ironically results in the critic appearing narrow-minded.

 

[Depleted]

" Most of the help I have received in my life was from others (vs. directly from the Lord) and was from the gifts(storehouse) those others have. Gifts are for edifying, after all. "

I'm posting that as a paraphrase, not a direct quote... because I thought the general ideas profound in their relation to this thread. (i hope I got it close enough to avoid offense)

People argue about whether gifts (spiritual gifts) are still here. When you consider some of the points in that 'quote', it seems much clearer whether they should be or not.


1. "most of the help I have received was from others (vs. directly from the Lord). "

We ALL have needs/shortages/weaknesses. Whether it be a financial need, emotional need, need of guidance/direction, need of wisdom, faith, hope, need to see we're on a wrong path, need of a healing...whatever. God would LOVE to give you the thing you need. But he's a gentleman and won't force it on us.

So... for whatever reason, God often cannot or does not give them to us DIRECTLY .
But he still wants us to have them.... So he uses OTHERS. I would venture to say he has to use others because if he could get it through to us directly, he already would have...and our inability to hear/see/receive in that area is often what caused our problem in the first place.

2. "and was from the gifts(storehouse) those others have."
OTHERS have weaknesses/shortages too, but they're often not the same shortages/weaknesses that WE have. If they happen to be strong (perhaps to the point of abundance) in that area, they can minister that strength or abundance to those who are weaker in those same areas... fulfilling (spiritually) Exodus16: 17-18

"And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less. And when they did mete(compare) it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating.

Our abundance can/should be used to fill the shortage/weakness of another... and vice versa.

3. "Gifts are for edifying, after all. " (I think that one explains itself.)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I was thinking I liked you before.

Now I'm sure I like you.

One correction, (and not what I wrote.) God really can give us everything we need without involving others. He's sovereign after all. That said, to me giving is like Christmas morning. I want to see the expression on someone's face when they open what I gave them. And, yeah, there might be a flicker of disappointment, in which case, that's when to tell them I kept the receipt, so what did they really want. BUT when I give something they really wanted -- better yet -- what they really needed, I get as much a thrill as they do.

"If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day. If you teach him to fish, you both have a great day." lol

I think God uses us to help others because it gives two people something good.

 

[Speak2Me]

All those gifts taught by Paul in detail about how the church should walk in them in different epistles only to be done away with in about 30 years. Riiiiiiiiight.
I guess we can cut all those pages out of our Bibles now that they don't mean nuthin.
What else is there those cessationists don't believe that we can cut out?
My Bible was too heavy anyway, especially with all those responsibilities in it they're tryin to get rid of.

 

[KelbyofGod]

And these signs shall follow them that believe...

Nehemiah6,
Thanks for replying and sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this topic. I'd actually posted my question about "sign gifts" and forgotten it. Just now did I reread and find this.

Btw, it was actually that passage of scripture (part of it) that I quoted to God in prayer as a new believer. Here's the verses for those who don't know them right off:

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I'll give just a bit of back story as to why I was praying on this particular topic...:

I'd been praying about salvation (what is REALLY required). Through my girlfriend, God brought me to someone who could tell me. They told me. I followed through. So now, according to them, I'm a new believer...according to them...but I'm not the most trusting individual. Meanwhile, my girlfriend is asleep on the floor. She had bad knees which would pop LOUDLY and give her great pain if she tried walking on her knees or crawling. again, she's asleep on the floor while I'm thinking of all this.

So I quietly laid hands on my girlfriend's legs and prayed " God, I've been told that I'm now a true believer. The bible says that the believers shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover... You DIDN'T say that they have to be awake when they're being prayed for. So I'm laying hands and asking you to heal her knees in Jesus' name."

When she woke up, she had no more pain or cracking in her knees. That was 29 years ago and she's still healed and is my wife to this day. So, yes, you're going to hear me adamantly say that the gifts are still here and operational...and God still honors that very scripture.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

Which is why I make the distinction that the real God's gift of tongues which is of other men's lips to speak unto the people is not really being practiced in today's churches when they insist they can use tongues privately also. When they claim they can do both, then I say they do not have the real God's gift of tongues that comes with interpretation.

The only reason there are cessationists, is because of the abuse of tongues and seemingly no discipline in the assembly. Confusion reigns which God is not the author of.

Enow,
Thank you for making a short and to the point reply...which also does a great job of isolating a finer point...which I call:

[Unknown] tongues VS. Diverse tongues. (I'll limit this post only to the latter...Diverse tongues. and we can talk later on the topic of IF there is anything such as "Unknown tongues" )

What you called "the real God's gift of tongues which is of other men's lips to speak unto the people" I call Diverse tongues... which is:

1) human dialects...(other than the natural dialect of the speaker)
2) spoken out loud...
3) supernaturally... (God directly giving the ability, as opposed to someone studying/learning the languages naturally)
4) for the intent of edifying the hearer(s)... (some might say for other intents as well)
5) because the hearer does understand the language being spoken (because it either IS their native language or a language they've learned along the way)

Actually my definition of diverse tongues stops there.
But to complete [what I think is] your definition, I have to add the following (because of your Interpretation comment at the end) :

6) which should be interpreted vocally (out loud)
7) by the hearer...
8) so the WHOLE body of listeners can be edified.

Is that fairly accurate so far?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[garee]

Nehemiah6,
Thanks for replying and sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this topic. I'd actually posted my question about "sign gifts" and forgotten it. Just now did I reread and find this.

Btw, it was actually that passage of scripture (part of it) that I quoted to God in prayer as a new believer. Here's the verses for those who don't know them right off:

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I'll give just a bit of back story as to why I was praying on this particular topic...:

I'd been praying about salvation (what is REALLY required). Through my girlfriend, God brought me to someone who could tell me. They told me. I followed through. So now, according to them, I'm a new believer...according to them...but I'm not the most trusting individual. Meanwhile, my girlfriend is asleep on the floor. She had bad knees which would pop LOUDLY and give her great pain if she tried walking on her knees or crawling. again, she's asleep on the floor while I'm thinking of all this.

Many misunderstand the point that the signs follow after. They are not signs we see to require . We continue to walk by faith the unseen. Jesus says it an evil generation, as the generation of natural unconverted man that does seek after a signs and wonder gospel .

The casting out of demons comes as the gospel is applied to the heart. The gospel the new tongue. They will not be affected by false prophecy. the poison referred to. They will pray represented by laying on hands giving them a hope they will recover. .No guarantees..

Its is the kind of what scripture calls fast the disciples did not know of an why the signs did not follow them at that time period.

So I quietly laid hands on my girlfriend's legs and prayed " God, I've been told that I'm now a true believer. The bible says that the believers shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover... YouDIDN'T say that they have to be awake when they're being prayed for. So I'm laying hands and asking you to heal her knees in Jesus' name."

When she woke up, she had no more pain or cracking in her knees. That was 29 years ago and she's still healed and is my wife to this day.

So, yes, you're going to hear me adamantly say that the gifts are still here and operational...and God still honors that very scripture

The gifts are still here the earthen body will die. They simply are not seen .God heals the unjust as well as those he does justify, the final healing.

 

[garee]

Enow,
Thank you for making a short and to the point reply...which also does a great job of isolating a finer point...which I call:

[Unknown] tongues VS. Diverse tongues. (I'll limit this post only to the latter...Diverse tongues. and we can talk later on the topic of IF there is anything such as "Unknown tongues" )

What you called "the real God's gift of tongues which is of other men's lips to speak unto the people" I call Diverse tongues... which is:

1) human dialects...(other than the natural dialect of the speaker)
2) spoken out loud...
3) supernaturally... (God directly giving the ability, as opposed to someone studying/learning the languages naturally)
4) for the intent of edifying the hearer(s)... (some might say for other intents as well)
5) because the hearer does understand the language being spoken (because it either IS their native language or a language they've learned along the way)

Actually my definition of diverse tongues stops there.
But to complete [what I think is] your definition, I have to add the following (because of your Interpretation comment at the end) :

6) which should be interpreted vocally (out loud)
7) by the hearer...
8) so the WHOLE body of listeners can be edified.

Is that fairly accurate so far?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

The prophecy is the the interpretation of God. Not the private interpretations of men as to what think there imagination can come up with as there source of faith which the scripture call no faith or dead faith .

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.2Pe 1:20

God puts His word on the prophets lips, it give ears to hear what he saying to the church. There is no daysman as that seen like the Pope as an infallible interpreter, a umpire between between God and man . We walk by faith the unseen.

 

[KelbyofGod]

"If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day. If you teach him to fish, you both have a great day." lol

That's another one to think about.

 

[Nehemiah6]

When she woke up, she had no more pain or cracking in her knees. That was 29 years ago and she's still healed and is my wife to this day.

The Bible says that the prayer of faith shall heal the sick, so you prayed in simple faith and your prayer was answered.

Now what you need to tell us is whether you were given the gift of healings so that you would simply lay hands on people and they would be healed (or your shadow would fall on people and they would be healed), and if so you did your church members or others turn to your for healing simply by the laying on of hands? And did you perform a significant number of miracles in this manner?

We all know that God heals in answer to prayer, but that is not what we are discussing. It is signs, wonders, and miracles -- the sign gifts.

 

[KelbyofGod]

The Bible says that the prayer of faith shall heal the sick, so you prayed in simple faith and your prayer was answered.

Now what you need to tell us is whether you were given the gift of healings so that you would simply lay hands on people and they would be healed (or your shadow would fall on people and they would be healed), and if so you did your church members or others turn to your for healing simply by the laying on of hands? And did you perform a significant number of miracles in this manner?

We all know that God heals in answer to prayer, but that is not what we are discussing. It is signs, wonders, and miracles -- the sign gifts.

Granted, I asked for a healing and it was given. Sounds pretty simple, right? Simple to understand...Yes. But is it easy to do?

What marvels me is how you responded to that information. You could have taken it as an opportunity to learn. For example, "Hey, it sounds like you got it to work...were you able to do it again?...can you teach me how to do that?". But instead it seems you took it as an opportunity to express your assumptions as though they are a reliable standard.

Please forgive me. I've read many of your posts and it seems evident that you are well studied and diligent. Therefore, I do NOT want to offend you. But the skill of your assumptions requires a clear exposing of the error within them. I apologize for not having a more diplomatic method.

1). In my eyes, just one such miracle seems a significant number. In your eyes, How many miracles does one need to perform before it becomes significant?

2). The same way that God didn't say the person has to be awake when hands are laid on them...he also didn't say that the hands being laid somehow has to exclude a prayer that God will do the work. <--Why did you assume it has to exclude prayer?

3a). My definition of a gift is "something given". I asked for a healing and he gave me my request of a healing. To me, that's a gift of healing.

3b). I'm guessing that doesn't fit your definition of a gift of healing. It seems your definition includes some very specific results. So... Exactly how many (of the criteria you suggested) have to be present before it is enough to be considered a gift? or further...What exactly IS the biblical definition of "the gift(s) of healing(s)"?

Again, I appreciate your comments within the forums and I hope you will continue to contribute.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[DJ2]

The Bible says that the prayer of faith shall heal the sick, so you prayed in simple faith and your prayer was answered.

Now what you need to tell us is whether you were given the gift of healings so that you would simply lay hands on people and they would be healed (or your shadow would fall on people and they would be healed), and if so you did your church members or others turn to your for healing simply by the laying on of hands? And did you perform a significant number of miracles in this manner?

We all know that God heals in answer to prayer, but that is not what we are discussing. It is signs, wonders, and miracles -- the sign gifts.

A well said and reasonable point but unwelcome among the pentecostal groups.

 

[beastslayer1970]

The Bible says that the prayer of faith shall heal the sick, so you prayed in simple faith and your prayer was answered.

Now what you need to tell us is whether you were given the gift of healings so that you would simply lay hands on people and they would be healed (or your shadow would fall on people and they would be healed), and if so you did your church members or others turn to your for healing simply by the laying on of hands? And did you perform a significant number of miracles in this manner?

We all know that God heals in answer to prayer, but that is not what we are discussing. It is signs, wonders, and miracles -- the sign gifts.

James 5 says the prayer of faith is to be done with the elders and after they anoint you with oil. If Kelby was alone and laid hands on his girlfriend, he was not doing what James 5 commands and therefore the elders did not anoint his girlfriend with oil and did not collectively pray the prayer of faith. The gifts of healing flowed through Kelby on behalf of his wife.



The context for the command and the prayer of faith is below.

James 5:14-15

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; [SUP]15 [/SUP]and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.

Why are you breaking context of the command and the prayer of faith to just make your point about sign gifts?

 

[beastslayer1970]

Several years ago my wife and I were doing some work on our main clean out septic connection . Her glove was caught by the electric snake we were using and the snake coil wrapped around her fingers,hand and wrist. I was to far way from the machine to stop it or unplug it and she calmly commanded the machine stop in the name of Jesus.

It did instantly and we unwound the metal snake from her arm, hand and fingers. Our neighbor was with us and heard and saw what happened, he was a retired plumber and said it should have ripped of my wife arm. She had not have one mark, bruise or anything.

We tried to turn the machine on again but nothing happened. She then flipped the switch to the on position and commanded the machine in the name of Jesus to turn back on and it roared back to life .

We took it back to the rental shop and they checked it out to give us our deposit back and it was in perfect working order and no electrical, mechanical or flip switch problems.

The neighbor asked us about our "religion" after he saw and heard my wife do what she did.