Cessationism
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I do not see how an outward sign to be sought after can be a curse and a gift at the same time?
I think it applies to all the spiritual (unseen) gifts. I think its why they are called spiritual gifts,spiritual things There is no visual gift as a sign gift as if God’s healing are evidenced with human hands or interpreting his thoughts after the private interpretation of men (Tongues). Signs as false or lack of believing the real signs that follow after, are for those who believe not prophecy.
Those who believed not the prophecy were not given the faith to look as evidence of the faith that worked in them showing they believing the word. Those who did not believe the word spoken did not look, they died from the poison used to represent false prophecy..
The others began the healing when they first believed before they saw.
And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. Num 21:8
Then those who do not believed prophecy turned into a image idol to be sought after .God made it into powder and they drank it. It came out as draught to show it’s not what goes into man that defiles them but what comes out.
2Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan
While it is true that all the major versions of Scripture translate 'But the fruits of the Spirit' as 'But the fruit of the Spirit';
there is still a nine-fold manifestation of the fruit of the spirit. If by grafting, you create a tree that produces: Almonds, apricots peaches plums and nectarines in three varieties of each; you could rightly speak of either the fruit of the tree or the fruits of the tree. In much the same way I am not sure how wrong it is to view the nine-fold manifestation of the fruit of the Spirit as individual fruits rather than as 9 aspects of one fruit.
I think the point should be well taken that the fruit(s) of the Spirit are/is at least as important as the gifts.
Innerfire's observation that among some if not many Pentecostal/Charismatic groups and/or denominations there is a tendency to be disorderly and to not exhibit the fruit, is acknowledged by many people who also consider themselves Pentecostal/Charismatic but still consider Biblical teaching on order in the church important.
I can understand that some might feel offended by Innerfire's use of the word most "Yet you find arrogance, belittling, harshness, and volatile emotions with most." but he can only speak from his own experience. If those who consider themselves 'Spirit filled', in respect to the gifts; respond to him graciously, his opinion is likely to change with his experience.
there is still a nine-fold manifestation of the fruit of the spirit. If by grafting, you create a tree that produces: Almonds, apricots peaches plums and nectarines in three varieties of each; you could rightly speak of either the fruit of the tree or the fruits of the tree. In much the same way I am not sure how wrong it is to view the nine-fold manifestation of the fruit of the Spirit as individual fruits rather than as 9 aspects of one fruit.
I think the point should be well taken that the fruit(s) of the Spirit are/is at least as important as the gifts.
Innerfire's observation that among some if not many Pentecostal/Charismatic groups and/or denominations there is a tendency to be disorderly and to not exhibit the fruit, is acknowledged by many people who also consider themselves Pentecostal/Charismatic but still consider Biblical teaching on order in the church important.
I can understand that some might feel offended by Innerfire's use of the word most "Yet you find arrogance, belittling, harshness, and volatile emotions with most." but he can only speak from his own experience. If those who consider themselves 'Spirit filled', in respect to the gifts; respond to him graciously, his opinion is likely to change with his experience.
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The problem there is not with believing that the gifts are still in operation, but rather that there are people being deceitful to push said false doctrines. Scripture warns us of this and yes, it is a real problem. But I've seen and heard so many people use this as reasoning for why the gifts have ceased altogether which is a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Well, I am a little bit late to the party. My "personal experience" with the pentecostal/Charismatic Movement (since they value experience over the Bible) was that in 15 years, always waiting for a "new word from God," I never learned anything about theology, discipleship, caring for the poor, the fruits of the Spirit, and on and on.
I wish I had a quarter for every time I heard this verse quoted, as "the" definitive theology on everything.
"So then, exalted to the right hand of God, and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you both see and hear." Acts 2:32.
It is a doctrinal statement in some Pentecostal churches I attended. And the context is the birth of the church on the Day of Pentecost. But enough of silly exegesis!
But fortunately, I kept reading my Bible while I was in these churches, and I gradually realized I was starving for lack of good teaching. And I wasn't hearing in these churches what I was reading over and over in my Bible. I was also starving for lack of fellowship. Relationships were both trite and cliquey. I had better friends in hockey, and some of those hockey people were -well, not nice! But better friends!
Then, in a big Pentecostal church with 10 pastors, I asked for help. A church I had attended for years, taught Sunday School, played in the orchestra, my husband helped with the children's ministry and the school bus ministry. Where we faithfully tithed. Not one person was available, not now, and not in the future. So big, mistake number 2, I switched to a Vineyard Church, where I was lied to. Where I don't think I once heard the Bible preached. Oh, but the worship was crazy-crazy!
Next stop, and Evangelical Free church. For the first time in my Christian walk, I heard the Bible preached. I heard a pastor do good exegesis. (Maybe that he had an MDiv and a Ph.D, not just some experiences and a year of Bible school?) Wow! It was amazing!
We moved provinces and eventually ended up in a SBC church. The pastor also knew the Word and preached. And then, he didn't! He got off track. So please understand that I am not saying all non-charismatic churches are the best. But as for actually learning the Bible, Bible studies that studied the Bible, not topics, and good fellowship, that place was awesome. To say nothing of God calling me to seminary, where I learned the tools to correctly read the Bible.
Before anyone suggests I am putting down charismatics, perhaps there are churches where people really do preach the Word, and not just "revelations" and "experiences." And not all cessationist churches do this either.
But my experience was that lip service is paid to the Bible, and charismatic experiences are exalted. I could never attend a church again where the Bible was looked upon as secondary to "revelations." (I am not saying these revelations are true, just that they are touted as such!)
The Bible has to be the source of our faith. Not a few verses in 1 Corinthians or Acts. But the whole counsel of God. And how to correctly read the Bible context, would stop half the defenses and/or heresies that pass as "Biblical" in this forum.
I guess to me, sola scriptura is more important than sola charismania!
I wish I had a quarter for every time I heard this verse quoted, as "the" definitive theology on everything.
"So then, exalted to the right hand of God, and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you both see and hear." Acts 2:32.
It is a doctrinal statement in some Pentecostal churches I attended. And the context is the birth of the church on the Day of Pentecost. But enough of silly exegesis!
But fortunately, I kept reading my Bible while I was in these churches, and I gradually realized I was starving for lack of good teaching. And I wasn't hearing in these churches what I was reading over and over in my Bible. I was also starving for lack of fellowship. Relationships were both trite and cliquey. I had better friends in hockey, and some of those hockey people were -well, not nice! But better friends!
Then, in a big Pentecostal church with 10 pastors, I asked for help. A church I had attended for years, taught Sunday School, played in the orchestra, my husband helped with the children's ministry and the school bus ministry. Where we faithfully tithed. Not one person was available, not now, and not in the future. So big, mistake number 2, I switched to a Vineyard Church, where I was lied to. Where I don't think I once heard the Bible preached. Oh, but the worship was crazy-crazy!
Next stop, and Evangelical Free church. For the first time in my Christian walk, I heard the Bible preached. I heard a pastor do good exegesis. (Maybe that he had an MDiv and a Ph.D, not just some experiences and a year of Bible school?) Wow! It was amazing!
We moved provinces and eventually ended up in a SBC church. The pastor also knew the Word and preached. And then, he didn't! He got off track. So please understand that I am not saying all non-charismatic churches are the best. But as for actually learning the Bible, Bible studies that studied the Bible, not topics, and good fellowship, that place was awesome. To say nothing of God calling me to seminary, where I learned the tools to correctly read the Bible.
Before anyone suggests I am putting down charismatics, perhaps there are churches where people really do preach the Word, and not just "revelations" and "experiences." And not all cessationist churches do this either.
But my experience was that lip service is paid to the Bible, and charismatic experiences are exalted. I could never attend a church again where the Bible was looked upon as secondary to "revelations." (I am not saying these revelations are true, just that they are touted as such!)
The Bible has to be the source of our faith. Not a few verses in 1 Corinthians or Acts. But the whole counsel of God. And how to correctly read the Bible context, would stop half the defenses and/or heresies that pass as "Biblical" in this forum.
I guess to me, sola scriptura is more important than sola charismania!
Okay, okay, I'll stop while I'm ahead. Haha.