Charismatic - Losing Faith (Healing)

[garee]

I would think it’s the whole idea as the false doctrine called “sign gifts”. Looking for where and when the idea of “sign gifts” could help to get the good soil of the matter as a sure foundation.

Where falsely trusting in what we do as experience (walking by sight) is the validator of the unseen and not prophecy alone is where people have their differences..

Solve the foundation crisis to where the idea comes from, solve the differences.

Tongues is not the only sign that shows a person has gone above that which is written ,The healing gift works the same way. If they say the healing proves a person has the Spirit of Christ, that sign shows us they are not walking by faith but again after their own experiences. You could say self fulfilled prophecy according to the experience.

God heals the unjust just as he heals those who are justified by Christ’s work of faith. He brings the rain of His gospel on the just and unjust.

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to “them” that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for “them which believe”.

No such thing as using both words together to represent as gift. Signs according to the law of God are for those who rebel.

Christ declared ...it an evil generation (the generation of natural man) separated from God that does seek after signs, and.......wonders. Again prophecy for those who walk by faith (the unseen)

 

[UnderGrace]

Amen, garee amen!!

God's grace is more than sufficient for me.

Each day He pours His joy and love into my heart in all situations.
His love (not signs and wonders) is the light to a broken and dying world, that they might also believe.

When I do not have the words He supplies the words directly to my heart, words that I understand, so that I have complete understanding.

It is indeed the appeal to the natural mind that seeks to add to God's love and grace, either by the law or by signs and wonders or maybe even both.

I would think it’s the whole idea as the false doctrine called “sign gifts”. Looking for where and when the idea of “sign gifts” could help to get the good soil of the matter as a sure foundation.

Where falsely trusting in what we do as experience (walking by sight) is the validator of the unseen and not prophecy alone is where people have their differences..

Solve the foundation crisis to where the idea comes from, solve the differences.

Tongues is not the only sign that shows a person has gone above that which is written ,The healing gift works the same way. If they say the healing proves a person has the Spirit of Christ, that sign shows us they are not walking by faith but again after their own experiences. You could say self fulfilled prophecy according to the experience.

God heals the unjust just as he heals those who are justified by Christ’s work of faith. He brings the rain of His gospel on the just and unjust.

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to “them” that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for “them which believe”.

No such thing as using both words together to represent as gift. Signs according to the law of God are for those who rebel.

Christ declared ...it an evil generation (the generation of natural man) separated from God that does seek after signs, and.......wonders. Again prophecy for those who walk by faith (the unseen)

 

[hornetguy]

Just a saying. A parallel to his character and pattern. It is just always been his ways.

God most always works through one man.

Think about it. It is actually hard to miss.

I must be pretty simple, cause I missed that conclusion...

You mean, like when he worked through Moses AND Aaron? Or Paul and Barnabas?

I still don't get it.. Probably never will..

 

[Cee]

When Jesus said this, it was after the Pharisees ignored all the signs they had seen, i.e. Him healing people.

And then He finished with you will see another sign, which is the sign of Jonah, which was His death and resurrection.

And also Scripture says: if you don't believe me for My words, believe me for the Works sake, which then He declares we will do as He did. If Jesus needed to show Works why would we need only Words?

This idea that God died to give us Scripture is crazy. Absolutely crazy. He is the same today, as He was when He was on the Earth. The problem is people don't BELIEVE it.

Why do you think He said WILL I FIND FAITH WHEN I RETURN? And people argue away His words, with statements like oh I don't need gifts, blah blah. It's complete disregard for Scripture that says TO desire gifts. At least come to grips with the fact that you're arguing against Scripture and not following it.

Signs and wonders will follow those who believe. Not those who believe before Scripture is completed. The world STILL needs signs. Jesus still LOVES the world. And He still HATES the works of darkness.

1 John 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

And NOW He calls US, His Body, and His Disciples to walk like He did! The Spirit of Christ is with us!

Here Jesus is linking His frustration with His disciples not having faith in Him:

Mat 17:16And I brought him to your disciples, and they could not heal him.” 17And Jesus answered, “O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him here to me.” 18And Jesus rebuked the demon,[SUP]b[/SUP] and it[SUP]c[/SUP] came out of him, and the boy was healed instantly.[SUP]d[/SUP] 19Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?” 20He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”[SUP]e[/SUP]

I would think it’s the whole idea as the false doctrine called “sign gifts”. Looking for where and when the idea of “sign gifts” could help to get the good soil of the matter as a sure foundation.

Where falsely trusting in what we do as experience (walking by sight) is the validator of the unseen and not prophecy alone is where people have their differences..

Solve the foundation crisis to where the idea comes from, solve the differences.

Tongues is not the only sign that shows a person has gone above that which is written ,The healing gift works the same way. If they say the healing proves a person has the Spirit of Christ, that sign shows us they are not walking by faith but again after their own experiences. You could say self fulfilled prophecy according to the experience.

God heals the unjust just as he heals those who are justified by Christ’s work of faith. He brings the rain of His gospel on the just and unjust.

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to “them” that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for “them which believe”.

No such thing as using both words together to represent as gift. Signs according to the law of God are for those who rebel.

Christ declared ...it an evil generation (the generation of natural man) separated from God that does seek after signs, and.......wonders. Again prophecy for those who walk by faith (the unseen)

 

[Cee]

Just a few days ago I prayed for a lady who had been prayed over MULTIPLE times for parasites, I woke up to an excited and HOPEFUL text because she felt different and had some parasites exit her body. Now she is praising God and having hope in His goodness. This is NOT a bad thing, but what IS a bad thing is attacking people who are following the commands of the Lord to pray for the sick. Look you think it's easy to pray for people? To get out your comfort zone and approach people? To believe and hope with people? To see sick people die? NO. It's not at all. But we do it because it's a command of the Lord. And we don't always see healing, in the Scripture I posted above the disciples didn't always see healing either. But when we do, when I see that look in people's eyes when they realize Jesus is real its so incredible. And until you go out there and have faith God is who He says He is, you won't see it. If your experiences are anything like mine, it won't be 100% percent because we are continually growing in our faith and removing doubts from our heart. That's all part of the process. But don't sit here and attack people who are doing what the Lord commands. If you think Jesus is all about us sitting in this little forum and arguing doctrine there's a lot of Scripture that you haven't understood. This has got to correlate into something real, something tangible, because the dying world out there needs the living Savior in you. In us.

And the idea that God gives us sickness is even more ridiculous. Because if that was the case going to doctors would be against His will. But He does give us doctors because He is a God of Life! The devil is the worker of sickness, death, and disease. But Jesus gives us LIFE! I don't ever look down on a person for going to a doctor, I just want to see them well. But I believe our first option should always be faith in Him as our Healer. And HE works through His Body, His Disciples, His Church!!!

 

[notuptome]

Just a few days ago I prayed for a lady who had been prayed over MULTIPLE times for parasites, I woke up to an excited and HOPEFUL text because she felt different and had some parasites exit her body. Now she is praising God and having hope in His goodness. This is NOT a bad thing, but what IS a bad thing is attacking people who are following the commands of the Lord to pray for the sick. Look you think it's easy to pray for people? To get out your comfort zone and approach people? To believe and hope with people? To see sick people die? NO. It's not at all. But we do it because it's a command of the Lord. And we don't always see healing, in the Scripture I posted above the disciples didn't always see healing either. But when we do, when I see that look in people's eyes when they realize Jesus is real its so incredible. And until you go out there and have faith God is who He says He is, you won't see it. If your experiences are anything like mine, it won't be 100% percent because we are continually growing in our faith and removing doubts from our heart. That's all part of the process. But don't sit here and attack people who are doing what the Lord commands. If you think Jesus is all about us sitting in this little forum and arguing doctrine there's a lot of Scripture that you haven't understood. This has got to correlate into something real, something tangible, because the dying world out there needs the living Savior in you. In us.

And the idea that God gives us sickness is even more ridiculous. Because if that was the case going to doctors would be against His will. But He does give us doctors because He is a God of Life! The devil is the worker of sickness, death, and disease. But Jesus gives us LIFE! I don't ever look down on a person for going to a doctor, I just want to see them well. But I believe our first option should always be faith in Him as our Healer. And HE works through His Body, His Disciples, His Church!!!

Are you willing to sacrifice your body for God's glory?

You probably don't get much out of the book of Job.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass

 

[wattie]

On the contrary Wattie, I've noticed most on this site do not believe in the gifts for today. I believe God heals in many different ways and takes us through the journey. I'm considered a "newbie" when it comes to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I have been saved since 1982 and we never learned about the gifts for today. And so we always went to those kinds of churches and never heard any thing else but "God may heal but often uses sickness to teach us lessons. God is not going to shield you from sickness and you are just like the rest of the world when it comes to sickness. The rain falls on the just and the unjust.... "

Now I do not believe that way since learning about the love of God in Christ. About who I am in Jesus and the things He provided for me as a daughter in the new covenant of grace. His righteousness is a gift., not something I do. The righteousness of Christ is a gift given when we get saved but many and most Christians are like I was believing we "do" righteous and that means we "are" righteous. We think we go in and out of righteousness like a door. But that was totally not true.

To be a son of Adam I only had to be born. Having done no good or bad thing I was born into Adam's fallen race condemned and cursed because of sin. But when I got saved, Jesus provided a new birth into His race (if you will) I'm now a daughter., a saint., a sheep of His pasture. Born again INTO Christ. Having His righteousness on me and no longer in Adam. How great is that!!??? Before I was in a place basically called sin. Now I am in a place called righteousness. I have His righteousness now.
Is Adam's positions stronger than the one Jesus died to give us? NO

I only learned this recently. Most believe in order to be forgiven you must confess every sin and make sure you don't miss confessing a sin or it won't be forgiven. Who can do that? I never could and always walked in condemnation because the ones I did remember were so stupid I wondered how come I don't have the discipline to just be good all the time and be able to do what is required to please God?? What is wrong with me?? My heart is not good., I prayed that God would "create in me a clean heart oh God., Let me be like You in all my ways.... I sang the song all the time and never got changed. (until I believed in the finished work of Jesus and His righteousness being a gift I received)

I was a daughter of the King but walked around like a poor and needy pauper. My problem was I didn't know I was already new and already had a clean heart. It was given at salvation. David wrote that Psalm and he was not in the new covenant like I am. He had the Holy Spirit come on him but not be in him like I do. The Holy Spirit came and went from people in David's time.

This was a major revelation to me Wattie. And just the beginning of a major change in how my behavior has changed. That verse in Galatians For I am crucified with Christ never the less I live yet not I but Christ lives in me., and the life I now live I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Gotta go., finish later.

Ya Jesus makes us righteous.. not us making ourselves righteous. I agree

We are saved eternally.. justified. Not by our own doing.

I am agreeing with you on what Jesus does for someone.

 

[Cee]

Are you willing to sacrifice your body for God's glory?

You probably don't get much out of the book of Job.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass

There's a lot I could say about the book of Job, but one thing I will say is this, Job was healed about 40 days later and it's recorded he received double what was taken. If we are not being healed and receiving double we aren't having a Job experience.

 

[Cee]

And according to Jesus God is glorified when people are healed not made sick.

 

[oldethennew]

He gives us what He wants us to have, be grateful and humble yourself for your blessings...

 

[Ariel82]

There's a lot I could say about the book of Job, but one thing I will say is this, Job was healed about 40 days later and it's recorded he received double what was taken. If we are not being healed and receiving double we aren't having a Job experience.

If we don't look towards eternal life with Christ, we are shortsighted.

If we teach people to lust after things of this world instead of store up treasurers in heaven, we are teaching adultery with the world and are enemies to God.

 

[ladylynn]

I have trouble wrapping my head around a God who would create us...just to play a game of who goes to hell and who doesn't. There has to be more to our purpose than just that

The enemy soooooo enjoys and wants us to reason in our minds and go around and around the "whys" and "how comes" of God. To try to judge God according to our own ideas of right behavior that we have observed from ourselves and people in life is not the criteria.

I find rest in the truth that God is not like us. His goodness love (grace) goes beyond what we can see right now in ourselves and others. It's times like you are going through Ed that rest is required.

And when I start to doubt Him in any way that is the time I have to remember that Jesus said "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father"

It always comes back to Jesus and Jesus healed and made whole. Simplicity is a wonderful thing to come back to when we have stepped off the platform of faith. One question always leads to another and another so before we know it we are questioning God Himself and why He had to send Jesus to die when He could have done this whole sin and payment thing totally differently so no one had to die. He is God right? so He could do anything He wants and He doesn't have to answer to anyone so He could have made salvation be payment free and not allowed sin to come in in the first place. Round and round we can go in that scenario.

But that is not where He wants us to go in our minds. The mysteries of God are actually only opened up when we are walking by faith. And that means faith comes by hearing His Word. But sadly., the last place we go when we lack faith is to the Word because we are disappointed at the time that it doesn't make sense and it's MORE discouraging.... and yet that is where we NEED to go all the more. So just in that alone is counter reasoning for a human brain. So is faith counter reasoning for the human brain.

So I see my human reasoning will take me farther and farther from the truth., not closer to it. And I'm sure you have read the verse in the Bible that says there is a way that seems right to a man., but the ways there of are the ways of death. The more we reason within ourselves the farther we go away from Him and are out in the open sort of speak like a sheep without a shepherd who wandered off and is caught up in the brush.

Soooo the answer is to wait on Him and stop the human revolving door of reasoning. I found in times like that is when we NEED to be ministered to. Put on messages from good teachers that lift up Jesus and talk about who He is to us and who we are to Him.

Listen to how other saints contended for the faith and how the Holy Spirit revealed the truth from the Bible about how to escape such thinking and get back to peace., the kind that "passes alllll our understanding" So you see., we are right back to places that surpass our understanding. We are not meant to know it all. We are meant to trust Jesus who knows it all. Be a sheep who is protected by Him. Read Psalm 23. He loves you Ed and is not playing games but has a wise and lovely purpose for all that He does.

 

[garee]

I must be pretty simple, cause I missed that conclusion...

You mean, like when he worked through Moses AND Aaron? Or Paul and Barnabas?

I still don't get it.. Probably never will..

Amen its two .Two by two.

One to represent the eternal unseen father, the other in respect the temporal , the Son of man, seen.

Moses to represent our one Holy Father in heaven and Aaron the one voice, or messenger , Paul and Barnabas, a husband and wife e.t.c.

 

[Cee]

If we don't look towards eternal life with Christ, we are shortsighted.

If we teach people to lust after things of this world instead of store up treasurers in heaven, we are teaching adultery with the world and are enemies to God.

Yes I hear you. But we don't desire things of the world, we desire things of God. And that includes the things He wants to give us. Sometimes the church teaches don't DESIRE ANYTHING, but that's gnostic thinking. Remember it was Jesus who said He gives us the desire of our heart and that our joy may be full. This doesn't mean we get them APART from God, that's another lie of independence. But look at it like this, if you don't feel like God wants to bless you, what testimony will you give when you are blessed? This allows ANOTHER lie to creep in which is orphanism, which teaches if you want to make something of yourself you have to work HARD and then people will teach that they need to work hard to get ahead in life. This is commonly taught today because of rampant gnosticism in the church. God is not ONLY in the church, He is at work with us, He is with us everywhere we go. And everything we receive we give Him blessing! Including healing and provision.

A lot of people say seek first the Kingdom, but then have a huge problem when "all these things" get added.

C.

 

[Ariel82]

Yes I hear you. But we don't desire things of the world, we desire things of God. And that includes the things He wants to give us. Sometimes the church teaches don't DESIRE ANYTHING, but that's gnostic thinking. Remember it was Jesus who said He gives us the desire of our heart and that our joy may be full. This doesn't mean we get them APART from God, that's another lie of independence. But look at it like this, if you don't feel like God wants to bless you, what testimony will you give when you are blessed? This allows ANOTHER lie to creep in which is orphanism, which teaches if you want to make something of yourself you have to work HARD and then people will teach that they need to work hard to get ahead in life. This is commonly taught today because of rampant gnosticism in the church. God is not ONLY in the church, He is at work with us, He is with us everywhere we go. And everything we receive we give Him blessing! Including healing and provision.

A lot of people say seek first the Kingdom, but then have a huge problem when "all these things" get added.

C.

People should know they are beloved children of God. Avoid the extremes of feeling like orphans or acting like spoiled brats, but learn to be mature in Christ.

 

[Cee]

People should know they are beloved children of God. Avoid the extremes of feeling like orphans or acting like spoiled brats, but learn to be mature in Christ.

I totally agree! In learning to be children, we discover how to be mothers and fathers! And that's the example of God this world desperately needs. As we grow in Christ, we show the world what He looks like through our lives. Our lives are the only Scripture some people will ever read.

Paul speaks this truth in this beautiful passage of Scripture here:

2 Co 3:2 You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all.3It is clear that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

It's so profound.

Paul says here that his flock is written on his heart. And through this ministry the Spirit of Christ writes on their hearts. We need mothers and fathers to rise up and disciple the sons and daughters of God (and not of God yet) with their own lives. But this starts with us first knowing WE are sons and daughters, so that we can grow into mature fathers and mothers.

 

[Depleted]

Agreed - I'm sure this will bring lively discussion. And I see a LOT of people that have your same story because they're still poor, still sick, still just messed up in general...and what worries me is that...I feel called to teach and preach...and honestly...most everything Hagin says "sounds" like God to me...I just don't want to be causing people to fall away...so I need to settle this.

Well, a couple of church leaders came up to hubby to tell him they thought they heard God telling them that he as a teacher. Then they wanted to teach.

He couldn't. You have to know something and then you have to know how to teach before becoming a teacher. He had neither. So, he did the obvious, started learning what he needed to know -- God's word. It took him a couple of years before realizing something -- what these men were teaching was wrong on so many levels. The two men who told hubby he should be a teacher didn't believe in studying or preparing a sermon. They winged it. And in winging it, they talked a lot but it usually had very little to do with the Bible. We ended up leaving that church because hubby learned that.

So, you think God has called you to teach? Well, you already learned that the message your church is teaching isn't Biblical. Why not study what IS Biblical? Then you learn what the real God sounds like.

 

[RickyZ]

The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass

The Bible is a light that exposes truth in the darkness... and divides right from wrong. It informs discernment. It shines the spotlight on sin. It brings what is small and hidden into view. It is a magnifying glass... it magnifies the glory of God.

A mirror produces a false image, the reverse of what is true. A mirror can only reflect what is put before it, it shines no light of it's own. A mirror can be used to trick and deceive, and is easily shattered.

You, my friend, have such a backwards understanding of things. This new phrase of yours explains a lot - and issues you a new warning. The Bible you know is a mirror reflection of yourself. The Bible you read speaks only the words YOU put into it. The Bible most of the rest of us know provides us magnification of the light, that we may see more clearly.

The Bible magnifies God. Your beliefs are a mirror of your self. And as with all mirror images, it is again completely backwards.

 

[Depleted]

I agree with a lot of this in a lot of cases...but

1) I asked my doctor if my heart disease was due to a poor diet - I'm not obese, but I do eat my McDonald's here and there like any other person. She (my doctor) said that she wouldn't even expect my arteries to look like they do if I had eaten absolutely horribly and I was 65. And that's when I was 31. So if God can heal me - awesome. If God can heal me, but isn't - why? If God can't heal me because healing was only for Jesus' time - then why me, God?
I don't know if I can follow or even wrap my head around believing that there is a God out there that would let his children be sick and not provide a Healer for them. I mean if I were to inject one of my children with a needle full of cancerous cells - I would be put in prison in any country in the world or put to death in many. I just can't believe that God would ever "use" an affliction to further someone's walk...that doesn't sound like God. I'm digressing here and talking to a lot of posters and not just you, but...to the people that mentioned Paul's thorn in his flesh...there are plenty of exigetical writings do prove/provide good apologetics that the thorn was actually PERSECUTION...and NOT sickness.

2) Why didn't God use doctors back then? He used Jesus and others after Jesus to cure people supernaturally. And what about all of the people who came down with afflictions over the years BEFORE medicine was able to cure them. They're just out of luck? What kind of God would He be if He did that?

Please don't take my tone as angry - I know writing can be interpreted incorrectly very easily. I'm very calm as I say all this...I just think they are valid questions for me or anyone else to be asking.

Thanks for your post.

Really? You could have been healed five years ago. God did provide you a healer. You refused the bypass.

And you can't believe God would give one of his children a sickness? Have you never heard about Miami being given leprosy from God?

I see the problem here. You are displeased that the god you invented doesn't play by your rules either.

 

[BenFTW]

There's a lot I could say about the book of Job, but one thing I will say is this, Job was healed about 40 days later and it's recorded he received double what was taken. If we are not being healed and receiving double we aren't having a Job experience.

LOL! I always strongly disliked *cough* hated *cough* that concept where people said they were going through a "Job experience" or someone in the church says it of another. VVhat you just said is hilarious and a great retort. "Oh, you are going through a Job experience? Tell me when you are healed and receive double." That made me laugh.

I just find the concept, in consideration of a post-cross view, unsettling when people think the devil has a sway on God's blessing in our lives when in Christ Jesus the promises of God are "Yes" and "Amen." It just irked me.