Christ took God's wrath for you

thecreationtutor · Oct 15, 2013

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Psalm 7
11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day

Isaiah 6 - HE IS HOLY and We are not
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.
6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purge

1 John 4:10 . . . this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

I. relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation
A. used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins expiated); hence the lid of expiation, the propitiatory
B. an expiatory sacrifice
C. a expiatory victim

hilastērion G2435 Propitiation
Thankful that Jesus absorbed and payed for the wrath that was due this sinner!

IntoTheVoid · Oct 15, 2013

Just so I know. You say Jesus did this for me.

At the moment now I'm sitting on the sofa after a days work and about to make food.

How would my day have been different if the crucifixion didn't happen? What impact would it have to my life?

Genuine question. I admit I don't know enough about the purpose of the crucifixion.

crossnote · Oct 15, 2013

IntoTheVoid said:

If the crucifixion had never happened you would have never happened as Adam and Eve would have had no future promise of a Redeemer.

RedTent · Oct 15, 2013

IntoTheVoid said:

The difference is like living in a different world. The world would be without even knowledge of sin if we had the same as was first created, if we lived in the Garden of Eden before the first man chose to know about sin. The Hebrews have a word for what it was like: shalom. It is a feeling of contentment, completeness, wholeness, well being and harmony. That is the world God wants for us, and God sent His Son to handle sin in our lives so we can achieve that.

This gives a sort of different dimension that is here in the world, it is a spiritual understanding of what is here. It cannot be taught like we teach arithmetic, it is supernatural. It can be experienced by accepting all that is in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. That physically happened and history can tell you about it. The forgiveness of our sins that happened at Christ's crucifixion has to be experienced, we have to accept it to experience it.

Living a life without Christ, and without Christ's forgiveness can almost look the same, but it doesn't feel the same at all. We might sit on the davenport and fix dinner the same, but with the forgiveness of Christ it includes "shalom".

thecreationtutor · Oct 15, 2013

IntoTheVoid said:

well if we were still in Old testament times - which the death of Christ represents - the Crucifixion. we would just have the Jewish people and their sacrificial system, and everyone not under that covenant (OT) who died would go to hell.

I don't think it's really possible to imagine life without the Crucifixion, the death burial and Resurrection of Christ.

How many times were there, B.C., where the Jewish people underwent persecution to the point of being ethnically cleansed?

I could imagine that God would have already came in vengeance and there wouldn't be pagans anymore but His children - But then none of the prophecies of Christ would have been fulfilled from the Old Testament.

Your immediate day probably would not exist at all

and now - if we are apart from Christ in how the world is now - we go about our day and to that person it doesn't affect them (to them) For we are blind outside of Christ: yet we have a sense of justice, a desire to do good, and secretly we know that what we do isn't good. We know something is wrong, without being able to pinpoint just what that is. We know that we are aging, and that we will die sooner or later, though we fight that reality.

To the believer - Thanksgiving should come out, worship, Joy, the desire for others to know this truth of the Good news of forgiveness in Christ and reconciliation towards God

RickyZ · Oct 15, 2013

IntoTheVoid said:

When someone sins their soul is lost to God. God allowed the sacrifice of an innocent animal to cover that loss from sin, ie the animal's soul would then be lost, not yours. Jesus, as the sacrificial lamb, was crucified so that we all may be found innocent of all our sins, once and for all. But even tho He was sacrificed, He did not loose His soul, rising again to life and paving the way for us to do the same.

How would life be different if it had never happened? Without His sacrifice, mankind would have no eternal hope. The world would be in even more and deeper despair than it is now. There would be no Holy Spirit to give us guidance. And the dead would remain just that - dead and lost forever.

IntoTheVoid · Oct 15, 2013

So if he was crucified to remove our sins... Why are we still born in sin?

svedbygrace · Oct 15, 2013

Not if His Wrath is abiding on you. Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

A person cannot believe in Christ while under God's wrath !

thecreationtutor · Oct 15, 2013

svedbygrace said:

sorry I had to read that a few times - wouldn't God's wrath abide on you until you believed? Those who do not beleive are condemned already to God's wrath John 3:16-20

BradC · Oct 15, 2013

svedbygrace said:

Why can't they believe being under God's wrath positionally?

svedbygrace · Oct 15, 2013

BradC said:

Who said they were under God's wrath postionally ? They are just under God's wrath, and since Christ removed God's wrath for those He died for, then those He did not die for have not God's wrath removed from them.

svedbygrace · Oct 15, 2013

thecreationtutor said:

God's wrath does not abide on anyone Christ died for before thy believed. How could it, when they were reconciled to God by Christ's death while they were enemies. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we[believers] were enemies[unbelievers], we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Davonson · Oct 15, 2013

thecreationtutor said:

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Psalm 7
11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day

Isaiah 6 - HE IS HOLY and We are not
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.
6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purge

1 John 4:10 . . . this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

I. relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation
A. used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins expiated); hence the lid of expiation, the propitiatory
B. an expiatory sacrifice
C. a expiatory victim

hilastērion G2435 Propitiation
Thankful that Jesus absorbed and payed for the wrath that was due this sinner!

So if we were created in Gods image wouldnt we be representing God, as Christ is representing God in the Holy trinity? That would defeat the purpose why he would die for us if we were already part of Him in partaking of His image. That would disprove his prefection in his work which represents him.

thecreationtutor · Oct 15, 2013

svedbygrace said:

hmmz - i don't know if I am totally convinced by limited atonement - but vs 10 adding the brackets that helps a bit - This is the one point that does not totally make sense

Like i know when God says that He wills that all men would be saved - there is a difference between desire and He's what actually happens - For god so loved the world, whosoever wills may come etc

I guess that's why unlimited limited atonement makes more sense if I can use that word
Sin and righteousness does nothing to God - He is completely separate from His creation. I would never use that as an excuse to sin - don't take it that way

the Desire that all be saved - but the real knowledge that not all will be saved - God does not delight in the death of sinners and the wicked - but His holiness demands it

Some people think that the doctrines of grace make God out to be a monster, but that seems like an unbelievers argument that i can't believe in a God who would kill hundreds of people

My question to that as well is - if God was a monster - that's His choice and what are you to do about it - He's God

SpiritofFire · Oct 16, 2013

thecreationtutor said:

hmmz - i don't know if I am totally convinced by limited atonement - but vs 10 adding the brackets that helps a bit - This is the one point that does not totally make sense

Like i know when God says that He wills that all men would be saved - there is a difference between desire and He's what actually happens - For god so loved the world, whosoever wills may come etc

I guess that's why unlimited limited atonement makes more sense if I can use that word
Sin and righteousness does nothing to God - He is completely separate from His creation. I would never use that as an excuse to sin - don't take it that way

the Desire that all be saved - but the real knowledge that not all will be saved - God does not delight in the death of sinners and the wicked - but His holiness demands it

Some people think that the doctrines of grace make God out to be a monster, but that seems like an unbelievers argument that i can't believe in a God who would kill hundreds of people

My question to that as well is - if God was a monster - that's His choice and what are you to do about it - He's God

My God does what pleases Him. And if He "desires" all to be saved and is ABLE TO DO IT BEING ALL POWERFUL, then it is WE who are in disagreement with Him.

Sanashankar · Oct 16, 2013

IntoTheVoid said:

Nowhere does the bible say that Christ came to "remove" our sins....we are all sinning machines and it is impossible to not to sin. Jesus never "removed" the sins of the world. Rather, Jesus is "the propitiation for our sins and the sins of the whole world".

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

Jesus DIED for our sins. But Jesus did not REMOVE the sins of the world. The salvation of humankind is a process.There is much we need to overcome to receive the salvation, and the first thing to overcome is "sin".

This is the order of what happens to sin:

1. Forgiveness
2. Repentance
3. Cleansing

God forgave us for our sins through Jesus Christ's crucification. the same way a hebrew man's sins were forgiven through the sacrifice of the lamb, the sin offering, according to the old testament law....now our duty is to repent and be ready for the cleansing....God does the cleansing thru chastisement.

Katy-follower · Oct 16, 2013

IntoTheVoid said:

Every one of us inherited sin from Adam and Eve.

Romans 3:23 says: "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"

Romans 3:10-12: “There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”

If you ever broke one of God's commandments in your life then you are guilty of breaking them all. For example, if a person ever told a lie in their life then that would make them a liar. In God's eyes they have sinned and just breaking one makes them guilty of breaking them all.

The wages of sin is death, but God in His perfect plan became a man - Jesus - and He died on the cross taking the penalty that we deserve. He took our place. Who has ever done that for you in your life? He shed His blood for us and is the only One that can pay our sin debt. Jesus then rose from the dead, proclaiming His victory over sin and death. Through Jesus Christ we can be forgiven of our sins. We can walk out of the courtroom with no charges against us. We can be completely forgiven.

John 3:16-17 says: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved"

Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus"

As I said, all are born as sinners and if a person dies without Christ then they will pay the price for that sin, which is eternal punishment in Hell. Only Jesus can pay the price and we only have this life to make that choice on whether we accept or reject Him. It's too late once we're dead... and you will never know when your last breath will be.

He said that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. He also said we will no longer be condemned. We are guilty of sin and deserving of punishment but He said He will let us leave the courtroom with a clean slate, no longer condemned. How amazing is that! The free gift is offered but you have to accept it.

Here is just a sample prayer to help. The prayer itself doesn't save you, you have to place your faith in Jesus...

"God, I know that I have sinned against You and I'm deserving of punishment. But Jesus Christ took the punishment that I deserve so that through faith in Him I could be forgiven. I believe that Jesus died for my sins and I trust in Him alone to save me. I place my trust in You for salvation. Thank You for Your wonderful grace and forgiveness! Amen!"

Skinski7 · Oct 16, 2013

IntoTheVoid said:

We may be born into a sinful world surrounded by sin but we are not born sinners.

The Bible teaches this...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The purpose of His death was to redeem us from all iniquity and to make us pure. Redeem means to "release one from bondage by payment of a ransom."

Sinners have sold themselves into bondage the bondage of sin through choosing to sin (sin is always a choice). Human beings sell themselves into an addicted state of serving the passions of the flesh in disregard for righteousness.

To escape this state we die with Christ whereby our old man is crucified once and for all which effects the destruction of the body of sin. The body of sin is underlying draw that keeps an individual serving sin. The old man is the natural man walking according to carnal desire.

This crucifixion is effected by godly sorrow working a genuine change of mind. This is where we die with Christ. We die to sin and thus the service of sin. This is what Romans chapter 6 is all about...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

You see dying with Christ is to partake in His sufferings and it is through the partaking in His sufferings that we no longer serve the lusts of men.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Thus we escape the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The notion of "escaping the corruption that is in the world through lust" has all but been eliminated from modern Christianity because they teach the "born in sin" doctrine and thus don't teach that sin involves the choice of yielding to temptation (yielding the lusts of the flesh [see Jam 1:14-15]).

Hebrews 9 explains the death of Christ...

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The death of Christ has to do with putting into force the New Covenant by the death of the Testator. It also has to do with the purging of sin (Jesus offered Himself as a sin expiating offering).

We are enjoined into Covenant with God through the blood of Jesus Christ for it is via the blood that we approach God in a new and living way with a true heart. It is through this method that we are cleansed (see Heb 10:19-29) of sin once and for all. Jesus is our High Priest, our Advocate, who offers up our sacrifice of a broken and contrite spirit to God which is acceptable to God and due to God's grace we may find forgiveness. This is what the Bible teaches.

God is not unjust in forgiving sins because those whom he forgives have been made clean inwardly and thus have no intention to sin again and therefore treat the grace of God with contempt.

Skinski7 · Oct 16, 2013

Basically false presentations of the death of Christ treat the blood as a cloak for an ongoing state of wickedness. Those who uphold this error will always defend ongoing sinning and inward depravity in a Christian. They will never preach on the heart of the redeemed being pure where one can then walk blameless in the will of God by the Spirit. To these people sin is more powerful than Jesus Christ because even though they profess to be in Christ they cannot overcome sin.

BradC · Oct 16, 2013

svedbygrace said:

The reconciliation of the world that was accomplished on the cross is a reconciliation that has been positionally put in place by God for man when all of man's sin was placed and judged on the cross through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Sin is what stood in the way from man being reconciled to God, so all sin had to be judged through death so make reconciliation possible. God's wrath abides upon the sinner until they are experientially reconciled to God when they believe upon the gospel of the Son by faith through the finished work of the cross.

Christ took God's wrath for you

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

BradC

Guest

Banned

Banned

Davonson

Guest

Senior Member

Banned

Sanashankar

Guest

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

BradC

Guest