Christian or Secular Counseling?

[Abiding]

totally depends on the reason. And then depends what the person knows.
God didnt only despence knowledge to believers, knowledge crieth in the streets.
See alot of Christian counselors that couldnt council a stuffed animal, and mess
up real people. I think a person should ask around for what they have done first
you dont take your car to a Christian mechanic or drink from a Christian cow do you?
Where do you think Christian counselors got their information? Id prefer it to be Christian
for sure, but id want results first which takes having the right knowledge.

 

[NiceneCreed]

totally depends on the reason. And then depends what the person knows.
God didnt only despence knowledge to believers, knowledge crieth in the streets.
See alot of Christian counselors that couldnt council a stuffed animal, and mess
up real people. I think a person should ask around for what they have done first
you dont take your car to a Christian mechanic or drink from a Christian cow do you?
Where do you think Christian counselors got their information? Id prefer it to be Christian
for sure, but id want results first which takes having the right knowledge.

There is no doubt there are bad Christian counselors, just as there are bad secular counselors. The point I was addressing, however, is whether or not you feel Christian counseling or secular counseling to be more effective in truly healing a person. And I never made the assertion secular professionals were not knowledgeable; merely, I wanted to ascertain if people felt they can be healed in the same way from a secular counselor as they can from a Christian counselor. Furthermore, I do feel secular counseling can be beneficial, as it helps facilitate in the healing process of those suffering from mental illnesses. Yet I do not believe true healing can begin for an individual, if the power of Christ is negated.


Grace and Peace!

 

[Abiding]

There is no doubt there are bad Christian counselors, just as there are bad secular counselors. The point I was addressing, however, is whether or not you feel Christian counseling or secular counseling to be more effective in truly healing a person. And I never made the assertion secular professionals were not knowledgeable; merely, I wanted to ascertain if people felt they can be healed in the same way from a secular counselor as they can from a Christian counselor. Furthermore, I do feel secular counseling can be beneficial, as it helps facilitate in the healing process of those suffering from mental illnesses. Yet I do not believe true healing can begin for an individual, if the power of Christ is negated.


Grace and Peace!

OK i see....well i dont think either secular or Christian counselors cant do any healing.
And I believe God will work through both. But i still think they have to know what they
are doing....if so they both can help tremendously helpful and the healing is going to be up to the
Lord in each case....sometimes healing isnt necessary, but understanding what our mess
is about is. In otherwords the Lord doesnt always want our healing to go as we would want.
Most of the time its a process and complicated interwoven with alot...no man can fix that.
Only the Lord.

I had secular counselling and changed my life. But i believe the Lord conducted it.

 

[BishopSEH]

First i need to say that a Christian Counselor is a misnomer. They are a counselor that is a Christian if they are to be effective. I don't care how good of a student you are being a Christian is a lifetime of study.

Secular counseling is based on treating the symptoms. If a person is going through something, lets say drug addiction. Secular counseling will focus in why they take the drugs, peer pressure, cultural pressure, environment and such. All good things but marginally effective because they don't deal with the core issues and with cycle breaking in the cases of addiction.

Given enough time and a phenomenal amount of effort secular counseling can win. Usually its because a person undergoing such counseling gets a tap on the spirit by God. At least that's what I call it.

Now for counseling done by a Christian can use secular counseling techniques that same way a Christian can build a house using the same skills an unbeliever uses. There is also a whole dimension of skills brought to the equation that a secular counselor can not begin to tap into.

First and foremost is a relationship with the Holy Spirit. Listening to Him can and often does provide insight and information into how to assist a person that a secular counselor simply does not have except in situations where God makes a choice to intervene.

Second of course is the Scriptures. An unbeliever can read the bible all they want they will come away with only surface wisdom. The believer on the other hand can, over time with study and meditation and prayer, can only increase in wisdom to pass on to the person to which they are providing counsel.

Third is purpose. I firmly believe that secular counselors want to help people as much as Christian that are counselors. At the end of the day though, for the secular counselor, its a job. For the believer, counseling is is an extension of their faith. It is another way of witnessing the redemptive power of Jesus into the life of another person. Case in point, the average income for a secular counselor is $47,000 a year. The Christian is $43,000 a year. Not a huge difference but consider that if money was the motivator would they not simply apply themselves to the more profitable secular?

The goal of the Christian in not to treat the symptoms, its to treat the person. Not just the body like M.D.'s do. Not just to treat the emotions or the mental aspects like the secular counselor. No its to treat the whole person, body, mind and spirit. Even if the "cure" is not complete the spirit is fed, the mind is soothed and the body is strengthened for the days ahead.

Of course there are mediocre people on both sides. If you come across them, go somewhere else. Yes a good secular counselor trumps a poor counselor Christian. In cases where the secular is the best option I simply recommend finding a Christian support group to augment the counseling.

In Christ,

Bishop SEH

 

[SparkleEyes]

I am going to twist (not in a bad way) your question. IMO, Pastors without counseling/therapy degrees have limited abilities to be effective. I think it is ok to speak to your pastor initially, but it is unwise to lean on him exclusively or heavily to really get insight into and change for a psychological/emotional/relational problem.

I do believe a christian counselor is preferable, but if he/she isn't good, then change and maybe go secular.

 

[BishopSEH]

The problem with a clergyman acting as a counselor is we simply do not have the time to devote to a practice. Just as the duties of a pastor requires a huge investment in time, energy, planning and study so to is that true for counselors. A pastor is simply not suited to be a counselor except in an advisory role. However, pastors do work hand in hand with most counselors locally and are not a resource to be overlooked. Further, congregants often report back to their pastor's in regards to the success of their counseling. This gives pastors, that take the time, a database for future referrals to best serve their congregation.

 

[NiceneCreed]

First i need to say that a Christian Counselor is a misnomer. They are a counselor that is a Christian if they are to be effective. I don't care how good of a student you are being a Christian is a lifetime of study.

Secular counseling is based on treating the symptoms. If a person is going through something, lets say drug addiction. Secular counseling will focus in why they take the drugs, peer pressure, cultural pressure, environment and such. All good things but marginally effective because they don't deal with the core issues and with cycle breaking in the cases of addiction.

Given enough time and a phenomenal amount of effort secular counseling can win. Usually its because a person undergoing such counseling gets a tap on the spirit by God. At least that's what I call it.

Now for counseling done by a Christian can use secular counseling techniques that same way a Christian can build a house using the same skills an unbeliever uses. There is also a whole dimension of skills brought to the equation that a secular counselor can not begin to tap into.

First and foremost is a relationship with the Holy Spirit. Listening to Him can and often does provide insight and information into how to assist a person that a secular counselor simply does not have except in situations where God makes a choice to intervene.

Second of course is the Scriptures. An unbeliever can read the bible all they want they will come away with only surface wisdom. The believer on the other hand can, over time with study and meditation and prayer, can only increase in wisdom to pass on to the person to which they are providing counsel.

Third is purpose. I firmly believe that secular counselors want to help people as much as Christian that are counselors. At the end of the day though, for the secular counselor, its a job. For the believer, counseling is is an extension of their faith. It is another way of witnessing the redemptive power of Jesus into the life of another person. Case in point, the average income for a secular counselor is $47,000 a year. The Christian is $43,000 a year. Not a huge difference but consider that if money was the motivator would they not simply apply themselves to the more profitable secular?

The goal of the Christian in not to treat the symptoms, its to treat the person. Not just the body like M.D.'s do. Not just to treat the emotions or the mental aspects like the secular counselor. No its to treat the whole person, body, mind and spirit. Even if the "cure" is not complete the spirit is fed, the mind is soothed and the body is strengthened for the days ahead.

Of course there are mediocre people on both sides. If you come across them, go somewhere else. Yes a good secular counselor trumps a poor counselor Christian. In cases where the secular is the best option I simply recommend finding a Christian support group to augment the counseling.

In Christ,

Bishop SEH

And I agree to an extent with the majority of what you said. It turns out that I am entering the seminary in a year or so, after I finish with my double major (Religion & Psychology, with a minor in Christian Counseling), and I also aspire to obtain a MSW from a state college, that way I have licensure. However, I do feel while even the most effective secular counselors can hope only to treat the symptoms of an illness, I also believe God can work miracles. There seems to be a general consensus among those who have posted in this forum that, neither Christian counselors or secular counselors can heal a person. Okay, I'll bite . . . But what I feel makes Christian counseling so effective is not the counselor himself, but the curative theology and biblical sanctification which takes place as a result of the Christian counseling. In other words, God heals the wounds of those who are suffering from spiritual and emotional distress. There are some secular counselors no doubt, who would find employing techniques which enable one to develop a closer relationship with God to be quite laughable. This is why I wrote in my short article (That is if anyone bothered to read it; this goes for everyone), one should not negate the healing power of Christ. Of course secular counseling can help to facilitate in the healing process of one who suffers from mental illness, but this process often time does not truly heal the issues, but instead, reduces the symptoms of the root cause. Christian counselors (And yes, I mean the effective ones, not the "bad" ones. How did that get brought up anyway?), to the contrary, show one how to develop a stronger relationship with Christ, and although the process can be a life long experience, a relationship with Christ address problems in the life of a believer like nothing else can. I hope this cleared things up a little bit for you and everyone else. Thank you for your interest in the topic, and God Bless!



Grace and Peace!

 

[BishopSEH]

And I agree to an extent with the majority of what you said. It turns out that I am entering the seminary in a year or so, after I finish with my double major (Religion & Psychology, with a minor in Christian Counseling), and I also aspire to obtain a MSW from a state college, that way I have licensure. However, I do feel while even the most effective secular counselors can hope only to treat the symptoms of an illness, I also believe God can work miracles. There seems to be a general consensus among those who have posted in this forum that, neither Christian counselors or secular counselors can heal a person. Okay, I'll bite . . . But what I feel makes Christian counseling so effective is not the counselor himself, but the curative theology and biblical sanctification which takes place as a result of the Christian counseling. In other words, God heals the wounds of those who are suffering from spiritual and emotional distress. There are some secular counselors no doubt, who would find employing techniques which enable one to develop a closer relationship with God to be quite laughable. This is why I wrote in my short article (That is if anyone bothered to read it; this goes for everyone), one should not negate the healing power of Christ. Of course secular counseling can help to facilitate in the healing process of one who suffers from mental illness, but this process often time does not truly heal the issues, but instead, reduces the symptoms of the root cause. Christian counselors (And yes, I mean the effective ones, not the "bad" ones. How did that get brought up anyway?), to the contrary, show one how to develop a stronger relationship with Christ, and although the process can be a life long experience, a relationship with Christ address problems in the life of a believer like nothing else can. I hope this cleared things up a little bit for you and everyone else. Thank you for your interest in the topic, and God Bless!



Grace and Peace!

The extent of what I said is correct so you should agree. It is admirable that you are majoring in both religion and psychology. Which do you plan to practice full time? Unless you wish to remain, single, celibate, and work 20 hours days as a norm you will need to pick one or the the other but not both. You of course can try but you will face burn out in 5 years or less, just something to keep in mind.

How the good or bad in regards to counselors came up, try reading the thread. Its a repeating motif. I will tell you you I did not read your article nor do I plan to because I do not debate theses but rather people. Also I have no interest in pursuing counseling as a full time practice and as such I do not want to fill my head with something I simply don't need. I am sure is a good article its just not germane to my role in the church or on this site.

I have to say that just about everything you wrote, with the exception of your personal details and the bolded lines is an "in other words" of what I wrote. as you said you agree with the majority of what i wrote and then basically rewrote would you mind telling me what you disagree with because for the life of me i can't find it in your post.

In Christ,

Bishop SEH

 

[NiceneCreed]

OK i see....well i dont think either secular or Christian counselors cant do any healing.
And I believe God will work through both. But i still think they have to know what they
are doing....if so they both can help tremendously helpful and the healing is going to be up to the
Lord in each case....sometimes healing isnt necessary, but understanding what our mess
is about is. In otherwords the Lord doesnt always want our healing to go as we would want.
Most of the time its a process and complicated interwoven with alot...no man can fix that.
Only the Lord.

I had secular counselling and changed my life. But i believe the Lord conducted it.

Did you read my article? I am pretty sure I stated something along the lines of "It is the role of Christian counselors to therefore address specific problems Christian individuals may face, by guiding the individuals with proper application of Scripture in their lives to produce positive change. This task can be accomplished by individuals who are facing spiritual and psychological problems, who first recognize and acknowledge they need help that only God can provide and ask a Christian counselor for proper guidance." Anyway, if that didn't make sense, I give up.

Grace and Peace!

 

[Angela53510]

The Secular counselor will not give any lasting change, he/sh views it as bad information, or maybe your chemicals are messed up. What is interesting in the past 100 years of research, they really don't know if it's the presence or absence of these chemicals that makes things happen. It's a fallen head trying to help another fallen head, that really only puts a patch on the wound

A Christian counselor, by God's grace, gets to the root of the matter, and points it out, and believes only God can heal the hurts and hangups, and behavioral problems.

I don't think a Christian can be demon possessed if they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. You can however be influenced by demons, and be controlled by them in certain areas. A foothold by Satan - a place where he can attack you, that you have personally given to satan.
Possession - actually means ownership - can a believer be owned by satan?

If you hold onto your sin, if you don't want what God wants for you in this area and you are not going to repent, that demon still has legal right over that area in your life.

If you are so given over to the power of the demonic, you probably need help of your elders and pastors, and be discipled closely


I know that God has been healing many areas in my life, over time, and the consistent pursuit on my part of Him.

I pray you never get sick with a physical illness. Because that would require not using medical doctors. Mental illness is an illness of the brain. The stigma against it is HUGE! It is NOT about demonic possession. Seriously, I agree that God can help us with difficult situations.

But if the physical brain doesn't work correctly, and medications help it work right, how could it possibly be demonic? Mental illness is genetic and has nothing to do with sin or demons.

God has helped me through so much, physical illness and the resulting depression which overtook my life for many years. Try being bed ridden and in excruciating pain, with a husband who wants out because he doesn't want to care for you. Then trusting God, after being turned away, and having God turn that illness into a ministry. And the marriage turned back into a miracle of love.

No demons, no sin - just a disease. Just like Axis I, mental illness.

Ignorance of the truth of what mental illness is about, is just so pathetic and ugly!

 

[NiceneCreed]

The extent of what I said is correct so you should agree. It is admirable that you are majoring in both religion and psychology. Which do you plan to practice full time? Unless you wish to remain, single, celibate, and work 20 hours days as a norm you will need to pick one or the the other but not both. You of course can try but you will face burn out in 5 years or less, just something to keep in mind.

How the good or bad in regards to counselors came up, try reading the thread. Its a repeating motif. I will tell you you I did not read your article nor do I plan to because I do not debate theses but rather people. Also I have no interest in pursuing counseling as a full time practice and as such I do not want to fill my head with something I simply don't need. I am sure is a good article its just not germane to my role in the church or on this site.

I have to say that just about everything you wrote, with the exception of your personal details and the bolded lines is an "in other words" of what I wrote. as you said you agree with the majority of what i wrote and then basically rewrote would you mind telling me what you disagree with because for the life of me i can't find it in your post.

In Christ,

Bishop SEH

Thank you so much for your prompt response; you are a fast writer indeed! It is a shame you did not read my post, because I essentially already stated everything you have stated, with one exception; I do not believe secular counseling can heal the individual the same way Christian counseling can heal the individual. Can one who is seeing a secular counselor be healed by the power of God in the same way as one who seeks out a Christian counselor? Absolutely. Yet it is because of the persons faith that they were healed by God. The problem with secular counseling (In most cases, anyway), is that they generally do not focus on a relationship with Jesus Christ, and I am certain you said something similar in your post. However I was confused by your statement, "Given enough time and a phenomenal amount of effort secular counseling can win. Usually its because a person undergoing such counseling gets a tap on the spirit by God." Are there unusual occurrences where people are not given a tap on their spirit by God? No one can heal the soul the way God can, that's for sure. Anyway, I intend on becoming a pastor, and I want the licensure for liability reasons, as well as to help facilitate those in my congregation who do suffer from mental illness, yet I will not credit the healing process to the secular counseling itself, but to God alone, through a relationship with Jesus Christ.


Grace and Peace!

 

[NiceneCreed]

I pray you never get sick with a physical illness. Because that would require not using medical doctors. Mental illness is an illness of the brain. The stigma against it is HUGE! It is NOT about demonic possession. Seriously, I agree that God can help us with difficult situations.

But if the physical brain doesn't work correctly, and medications help it work right, how could it possibly be demonic? Mental illness is genetic and has nothing to do with sin or demons.

God has helped me through so much, physical illness and the resulting depression which overtook my life for many years. Try being bed ridden and in excruciating pain, with a husband who wants out because he doesn't want to care for you. Then trusting God, after being turned away, and having God turn that illness into a ministry. And the marriage turned back into a miracle of love.

No demons, no sin - just a disease. Just like Axis I, mental illness.

Ignorance of the truth of what mental illness is about, is just so pathetic and ugly!

Valid point you made! Well said.


Grace and Peace!

 

[Abiding]

Did you read my article? I am pretty sure I stated something along the lines of "It is the role of Christian counselors to therefore address specific problems Christian individuals may face, by guiding the individuals with proper application of Scripture in their lives to produce positive change. This task can be accomplished by individuals who are facing spiritual and psychological problems, who first recognize and acknowledge they need help that only God can provide and ask a Christian counselor for proper guidance." Anyway, if that didn't make sense, I give up.

Grace and Peace!

If i seemed to have been contending something i wasnt.

 

[NiceneCreed]

If i seemed to have been contending something i wasnt.

My apologies.

 

[BishopSEH]

Thank you so much for your prompt response; you are a fast writer indeed! It is a shame you did not read my post, because I essentially already stated everything you have stated, with one exception; I do not believe secular counseling can heal the individual the same way Christian counseling can heal the individual. Can one who is seeing a secular counselor be healed by the power of God in the same way as one who seeks out a Christian counselor? Absolutely. Yet it is because of the persons faith that they were healed by God. The problem with secular counseling (In most cases, anyway), is that they generally do not focus on a relationship with Jesus Christ, and I am certain you said something similar in your post. However I was confused by your statement, "Given enough time and a phenomenal amount of effort secular counseling can win. Usually its because a person undergoing such counseling gets a tap on the spirit by God." Are there unusual occurrences where people are not given a tap on their spirit by God? No one can heal the soul the way God can, that's for sure. Anyway, I intend on becoming a pastor, and I want the licensure for liability reasons, as well as to help facilitate those in my congregation who do suffer from mental illness, yet I will not credit the healing process to the secular counseling itself, but to God alone, through a relationship with Jesus Christ.


Grace and Peace!

Yes secular counseling can win. that fact is indisputable. If you treat all the symptoms you will eventually get to the root of the issue. The thing is, its long and needlessly painful and ridiculously expensive. Several times in my initial post i made it clear that it is God the Holy Spirit that does the healing. We (people) merely serve as a conduit to effect that healing for the large part. Note i said large and not completely. People are meant to be in relationship and short of the relationship between God and man and the marriage relationship one would be hard pressed to find a tighter relationship that of patient/ counselor.

I would equate secular counseling with trying to tread water with your legs tied together. It can be done but it takes a lot more effort and you tire much quicker. But, make no mistake, you can tread water with your legs bound and you can be healed with secular counseling. To deny it is willful blindness or pure grit stubbornness.

I will caution you about getting to vested in the trials, from a counselor's viewpoint, of your future congregation. Our job as pastors is to train up effective disciples, to reach the lost and to seek out those that have strayed and return them to the fold. Should a congregant suffer mental illness or addiction or any other of a host of things and you attempt to be a counselor to them you had better have a solid staff that can take up your slack was you abandon the flock for a saved person that is going through something which may or may not be healed regardless of time frame. As a rule of thumb if the issue can not be solved in 3 hours, pass it on to a professional. That's 3, 1 hour sessions not a 3 hour block.

As a clergyman you most make the main thing, the main thing as hard as that is to do at times. Our roles are clearly made in the Scriptures and treating mental illness simply isn't one of them. Compassion yes, by all means be compassionate. Set aside time to serve by listening but do not lose the primary focus of a pastoral ministry.

In Christ,

Bishop SEH

 

[Abiding]

My apologies.

And best wishes on your studies...if you become a counselor
i hope your a great one and help lots of folks.

 

[NiceneCreed]

Yes secular counseling can win. that fact is indisputable. If you treat all the symptoms you will eventually get to the root of the issue. The thing is, its long and needlessly painful and ridiculously expensive. Several times in my initial post i made it clear that it is God the Holy Spirit that does the healing. We (people) merely serve as a conduit to effect that healing for the large part. Note i said large and not completely. People are meant to be in relationship and short of the relationship between God and man and the marriage relationship one would be hard pressed to find a tighter relationship that of patient/ counselor.

I would equate secular counseling with trying to tread water with your legs tied together. It can be done but it takes a lot more effort and you tire much quicker. But, make no mistake, you can tread water with your legs bound and you can be healed with secular counseling. To deny it is willful blindness or pure grit stubbornness.

I will caution you about getting to vested in the trials, from a counselor's viewpoint, of your future congregation. Our job as pastors is to train up effective disciples, to reach the lost and to seek out those that have strayed and return them to the fold. Should a congregant suffer mental illness or addiction or any other of a host of things and you attempt to be a counselor to them you had better have a solid staff that can take up your slack was you abandon the flock for a saved person that is going through something which may or may not be healed regardless of time frame. As a rule of thumb if the issue can not be solved in 3 hours, pass it on to a professional. That's 3, 1 hour sessions not a 3 hour block.

As a clergyman you most make the main thing, the main thing as hard as that is to do at times. Our roles are clearly made in the Scriptures and treating mental illness simply isn't one of them. Compassion yes, by all means be compassionate. Set aside time to serve by listening but do not lose the primary focus of a pastoral ministry.

In Christ,

Bishop SEH

I agree with every point you make, except that secular counseling can heal the person the same way Christian counseling can. I suppose I am willfully blind or just plain stubborn, as you so eloquently put it (Just kidding, of course). But in all seriousness, you did raise some valid points about not being able to dedicate enough time between being both pastor and counselor to my congregants. There is no doubt I will have to counsel some congregants to a far lesser degree than a secular counselor would counsel their cliental; yet anything more than several hours a week (total) is unnecessary for a pastor. There are definitely many thing I must consider, but I have several more years before I become a pastor. Perhaps God will even lead me in another direction . . . Who knows, maybe it is His will I become a counselor or social worker instead. Only time will tell what His plan is for my life. Thank you once again, and God Bless!



Grace and Peace!

 

[NiceneCreed]

And best wishes on your studies...if you become a counselor
i hope your a great one and help lots of folks.

Thank you so much for your encouragement. That is one of the nicest things anyone has said to me on the CC in my short time here. God Bless!



Grace and Peace!

 

[MaggieMye]

MaggieMye,

I'm sure you are a very kind, sincere Christian, and you're only voicing your heartfelt beliefs,
so I don't want to be unkind.

Nonetheless, I can't think of any place in scripture that says EVERY SAVED BELIEVER needs personal deliverance from demons - especially if this "deliverance" is thought of as deliverance from demons actually "indwelling" a believer, which also has no foundation in scripture.

I can't think of any scripture to support any of this.

It doesn't sound like scripture; it sounds like something taught by guys doing deliverance ministries, who only make money if they have people to deliver from demons... over and over and over.

MaggieMye, I don't dislike you in any way... I just disagree with you.[/QUOTE
If you study deliverance, generational curses, curses in general, you will then understand WHY every person needs deliverance. Don't forget that we are ALL BORN into sin. That alone dictates that everyone needs deliverance.
The early church upon receiving converts, would take them through deliverance so that they could then, without all those hindrances of the enemy, proceed to DO the Word of God, casting out demons, raising the dead, healing the sick. When a person has (unknowingly) demons affecting their life, they seldom are effective in manifesting Christ.

 

[MaggieMye]

Re Post #30
Mental illness is a spiritual illness and it is from the great influence of demons. Consider the Gadarene demoniac!
It has usually has nothing to do with any sin the person has committed, especially in children. But it comes through generational curses (schizophrenia runs IN FAMILIES...as does depression, Bi-polar, etc). It is one of the ways the devil keeps a person FROM fulfilling his/her destiny in the kingdom of Heaven and doing God's will.