Christianity has no faults

[cloudshape]

Our money, our health, our belongings.... yes. These are things of prosperity- and yes, they are blessings. They are also responsibilities. Stewardship. If we focus on money, belongings, status, and health- we miss life and some of the largest blessings we can have. Love, relationships, time, fun, and even, to a degree- the deepest part of faith. Where we place our time and resources, that is where our energy and attention goes. In scripture, that is where our heart goes. On the other hand, living in abject poverty is not the call of Christians. How do we use our money? How do we take care of our families, neighbors, enemies?? There is nothing wrong with having money. Where we have problems is how money influences us. Do we value it more than God? Do we spend more time making more money for status while ignoring our children? Do we really have to have 4 High Def TVs, three computers, and two cars? Or can our money and time be used better elsewhere (stewardship)?

It is not about God rewarding some of us with riches while others languish in poverty. There are many causes of poverty: lack of education, being born in poverty, losing a job, work skills and abilities, language/ communication barriers, opportunities of work... some of these we have control of, some we don't.

I thought that video was powerful. I thought the example of the girl dying was over the top. But, it makes a good point, to a degree. Can you praise God and see Him as your greatest gift/ treasure in the worst times of your lives and, also, in the best times of your lives?

 

[Browncoat]

Phil its clear there is such a thing as being poor on this earth. God said there will always be poor. Makes me wonder did he say that cause he knew the devil would deceive the Christians and they would be running around telling everyone if you believe in the most high God you need to poor. Or was it because he knew the Christians he gave lots of money to would be selfish and not share. Or is it cause he knew Christians would make up some lies on why they are not to tithe.
As far as those places you mentioned they worship all kinds of other gods in those places.
Its fact that the Christians that are rich if they shared everyone would have plenty.
If we are to be poor then where is our testamony. Who would want to be like us.

Are you rich?

 

[phil36]

Our money, our health, our belongings.... yes. These are things of prosperity- and yes, they are blessings. They are also responsibilities. Stewardship. If we focus on money, belongings, status, and health- we miss life and some of the largest blessings we can have. Love, relationships, time, fun, and even, to a degree- the deepest part of faith. Where we place our time and resources, that is where our energy and attention goes. In scripture, that is where our heart goes. On the other hand, living in abject poverty is not the call of Christians. How do we use our money? How do we take care of our families, neighbors, enemies?? There is nothing wrong with having money. Where we have problems is how money influences us. Do we value it more than God? Do we spend more time making more money for status while ignoring our children? Do we really have to have 4 High Def TVs, three computers, and two cars? Or can our money and time be used better elsewhere (stewardship)?

It is not about God rewarding some of us with riches while others languish in poverty. There are many causes of poverty: lack of education, being born in poverty, losing a job, work skills and abilities, language/ communication barriers, opportunities of work... some of these we have control of, some we don't.

I thought that video was powerful. I thought the example of the girl dying was over the top. But, it makes a good point, to a degree. Can you praise God and see Him as your greatest gift/ treasure in the worst times of your lives and, also, in the best times of your lives?

Mmmmm, there are many examples of people having their children dying and, through the hurt and pain they leaned on God more and more, he was what they needed, was He was enough for them. His Sovereignty and love.

I think you are getting confused with the heart of the issue. Does God want us to be in abject poverty? I am sure He does not anyone should surfer that abjection, However, if it fulfills a purpose, a purpose to show God's glory and that he is the Sovereign Lord then yes.

And if God wants you to be rich to fulfill a glorious purpose to show glory to his name what is wrong with that. Of course we need money to live, I don't think anyone would be foolish to say otherwise.

But these examples are not the issue either!

The issue is the gospel of wealth, the gospel of health that is the issue.

You state that 'living in abject poverty is not the call of Christians' now that is one huge statement to make..

Can I ask you a simple question 'what is the call of Christians'?

As I have already stated we in the west can seem to comprehend lack of money, even for those not working there is usually some form of help in the west.

Now tell me about, other countries, where the country itself is poor, and Christianity can get you jailed, beaten, killed, your wife and daughter raped and not given job opportunities. are they then not Christians? obviously they are doing something wrong, as this cannot possibly happen to someone who has the Christian call?

No going back to where the video talks of the child going through the windscreen, in what ways do you see that God is enough for those being truly persecuted in the non-west? He is their all!!!!

the world does not evolve around the wealth mentality of the west....

Kind regards

Phil

 

[Ash_JFF]

So, someone not acting in full accordance to Christian belief isn't a Christian? If that's true- there's no such thing as a Christian. I have yet to meet a perfect one. I have met some very nice, sincere people. But they still make mistakes and fall short of Christian teaching.

There have been people who bring a bad name/ reputation to Christian belief through their actions. I have met several of them, also. Some of these individuals have brought a lot of harm to people through their behavior. But... are they still Christian?

I guess my question is: what makes a Christian? How do you know you're a Christian?

When I think of the Christians I have the most respect for, they are the people who truly attempt to live up to the standards of Christian teaching:
they are humble, help others in a variety of ways, speak their faith gently yet with power, don't judge- yet still hold to their beliefs, pray, teach, worship- in other words, it's a life style, not a Sunday morning event. There are several I have met that makes me wonder "what do they have that I don't?"

So, what makes a Christian?

I like this post.

 

[Ash_JFF]

Phil its clear there is such a thing as being poor on this earth. God said there will always be poor. Makes me wonder did he say that cause he knew the devil would deceive the Christians and they would be running around telling everyone if you believe in the most high God you need to poor. Or was it because he knew the Christians he gave lots of money to would be selfish and not share. Or is it cause he knew Christians would make up some lies on why they are not to tithe.
As far as those places you mentioned they worship all kinds of other gods in those places.
Its fact that the Christians that are rich if they shared everyone would have plenty.
If we are to be poor then where is our testamony. Who would want to be like us.

Jesus was very poor and I want to be like Him. If God makes me rich, its for His glory. If He takes everything away from me, its for His Glory. Ultimately, if I have Christ, I am happy.

There is this free newsletter called, Voice of the Martyrs that gives updates about the Christians in other Christians that are being tortured and killed for there faith in Jesus. There children are taken from them, husbands are imprisoned or killed, wives are raped and killed. And yet, through it all, they have the strongest faith that I know of. I very much and JEALOUS of their faith.

Riches can be a curse. They can drive us away from Jesus if we do not put Jesus first.

You said, "If we are to be poor then where is our testamony. Who would want to be like us."
Out testimony is Jesus, NOT RICHES. I want to be like the Christians who lost EVERYTHING - family, shelter, health and food, and endure such pain: torture, starvation, rape, mockery, and forgive the tormentors - and yet in the end they proclaim, "To God be the glory! Thank you Jesus for blessing me with such suffering that I am may glorify you to the end and bring others to you!"

How I want there courage, faith and trust! I don't want to go through what they are going through but I want the end result but to get that God has to put us through hell on Earth sometimes.


Website for Voice of the Martyrs if your interested:
http://www.persecution.com/idop/

 

[aspen]

Phil its clear there is such a thing as being poor on this earth. God said there will always be poor. Makes me wonder did he say that cause he knew the devil would deceive the Christians and they would be running around telling everyone if you believe in the most high God you need to poor. Or was it because he knew the Christians he gave lots of money to would be selfish and not share. Or is it cause he knew Christians would make up some lies on why they are not to tithe.
As far as those places you mentioned they worship all kinds of other gods in those places.
Its fact that the Christians that are rich if they shared everyone would have plenty.
If we are to be poor then where is our testamony. Who would want to be like us.

Jesus said that the poor will always be with us to Judas because He knew Judas was not concerned about the poor at all. He was calling Judas out in front of everyone for his hypocrisy - notice Judas had no response to Jesus. He certainly didn't come to the poor peoples defense, which proved where his heart really was.

Also, I believe that Jesus was making a commentary on the reason poor people exist - it is because of corruption of powerful people - the same type of corruption that was in Judas' heart.

 

[QuestionTime]

So, someone not acting in full accordance to Christian belief isn't a Christian? If that's true- there's no such thing as a Christian. I have yet to meet a perfect one. I have met some very nice, sincere people. But they still make mistakes and fall short of Christian teaching.

There have been people who bring a bad name/ reputation to Christian belief through their actions. I have met several of them, also. Some of these individuals have brought a lot of harm to people through their behavior. But... are they still Christian?

I guess my question is: what makes a Christian? How do you know you're a Christian?

When I think of the Christians I have the most respect for, they are the people who truly attempt to live up to the standards of Christian teaching:
they are humble, help others in a variety of ways, speak their faith gently yet with power, don't judge- yet still hold to their beliefs, pray, teach, worship- in other words, it's a life style, not a Sunday morning event. There are several I have met that makes me wonder "what do they have that I don't?"

So, what makes a Christian?

Well, ask Leonard Ravenhill, ask Keith Green, ask William Booth, ask John Wesley. These men will tell you what a Christian is. The Bible says that all new believers are Carnal. Mature believers live according to the scriptures I provided above. Unfortunately the Christian Church today is almost void of mature believers and are instead packed full of carnal people.

If it were up to me, no one who is carnal would call themselves a Christian. They would say that they are trying to become a Christian or that they were stage 1 in belief. John gives 3 stages of Christianity in 1 John. As Wesley said: "A person who has experienced the full assurance of faith has been freed from sin, the whole body of sin within them crucified." As St. John said: "As Jesus is, so are we in this world." No carnal person can claim to be as Jesus is. St. John wasn't carnal when he wrote those words.

You can also ask Andrew Murray, whose quote I include below: (Andrew Murray wrote book after book telling Christians how they can enter into Christian maturity; also called the second blessing / heart cleansing / Christian Perfection / etc..)

 

[QuestionTime]

These quotes are from John Wesley's journal. This is what revival is. When a revival occurs, Christians receive a deep forgiveness and cleansing from all inward and outward sin. The result is that they are freed from sin, both it's guilt and power. That's why Christianity spread like wild fire at Pentecost, because the believers were freed from sin. That's why they were able to be chewed to death by lions and get nailed upside down to a cross. Their sins were gone, they had no fear and no guilt. They were as holy as Jesus is; just like St. John said.

Monday, 27.—Mr. Kinchin went with me to the castle, where, after reading prayers and preaching on "It is appointed unto men once to die," we prayed with the condemned man, first in several forms of prayer and then in such words as were given us in that hour. He kneeled down in much heaviness and confusion, having "no rest in" his "bones, by reason of" his "sins." After a space he rose up, and eagerly said, "I am now ready to die. I know Christ has taken away my sins; and there is no more condemnation for me." The same composed cheerfulness he showed when he was carried to execution; and in his last moments he was the same, enjoying a perfect peace, in confidence that he was "accepted in the Beloved."

Wednesday, May 24.—I think it was about five this morning that I opened my Testament on those words, "There are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises, even that ye should be partakers of the divine nature" [II Peter 1:4]. Just as I went out, I opened it again on those words, "Thou art not far from the kingdom of God" [Mark 12:34]. In the afternoon I was asked to go to St. Paul's. The anthem was, "Out of the deep have I called unto Thee, O Lord: Lord, hear my voice. Oh, let Thine ears consider well the voice of my complaint. If Thou, Lord, wilt be extreme to mark what is done amiss, O Lord, who may abide it? For there is mercy with Thee; therefore shalt Thou be feared. O Israel, trust in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with Him is plenteous redemption. And He shall redeem Israel from all his sins."
"I Felt My Heart Strangely Warmed"

In the evening I went very unwillingly to a society in Aldersgate Street, where one was reading Luther's preface to the Epistle to the Romans. About a quarter before nine, while he was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone, for salvation; and an assurance was given me that He had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death.
I began to pray with all my might for those who had in a more especial manner despitefully used me and persecuted me. I then testified openly to all there what I now first felt in my heart.

After my return home, I was much buffeted with temptations, but I cried out, and they fled away. They returned again and again. I as often lifted up my eyes, and He "sent me help from his holy place." And herein I found the difference between this and my former state chiefly consisted. I was striving, yea, fighting with all my might under the law, as well as under grace. But then I was sometimes, if not often, conquered; now, I was always conqueror.

As you can see above, Wesley was living the Romans 7 life that Paul described. He wanted with all his heart to obey God in every way, but just couldn't do it with any consistency. But then he experienced Ezekiel 36, where God promised that He would cause us to walk in His commandments. God also promised the Israelites - right after telling them how they would rebel against Him - that He would eventually circumsize their hearts to love Him properly. This is what Christ came to do, to save us from our sins, not in our sins.

Quest