Christians and military service

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Sep 1, 2013
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We disagree on our ways we see sin. I see where you are coming from but I disagree. God did things that if we did would be sinful. Some examples would be killing Jobs kids. (murder) He commands his angels to make a man lie in 1 Kings 22:22. He kills David's child (murder)
How can anyone, including God, commit the act of murder and not be called a murderer? If you believe like many here who agree with you that God murdered Job's kids and He murdered David's child then you believe that God is a murderer. You seem to be saying that God is a murderer but not a sinner or God murders but is not a murderer making Him not a sinner. According to this reasoning He can commit any wicked act but not be a sinner because the rules He made were for the man He created and not for Himself... Thus He can commit acts of evil but not be considered to be an evil God (a sinner) because He does not come under the rules that He created for man. And what I find interesting about this is that there are some OT law promoters that agree with you. Seems no one here wants to dare call God a murderer they just want to go as far as saying He murdered which infers that He is a murderer. How can one say, "God murdered but He's not a murderer." Or
"God murdered but He's not a murderer because a murderer is a sinner and God is not a sinner"?

I'm no expert on other religions but I read that the Gnostics believe something similar to this: That the god who created the physical universe and all humanity with all the laws is evil and was created by Sophia, the goddess wife of the other ultimate evil god. And all the laws this evil god (created by Sophia) made for man to follow were for man and not for himself... to sort of keep man from rebelling. I can see that belief you have about God committing acts of murder and not being a murderer (sinner) because the rules He made for man do not apply to Himself is a belief that many if not most here share. No difference to me among those who belief this whether they promote OT laws or not... this is one and the same group.

 
E

Ecclesiastik

Guest


How can anyone, including God, commit the act of murder and not be called a murderer? If you believe like many here who agree with you that God murdered Job's kids and He murdered David's child then you believe that God is a murderer. You seem to be saying that God is a murderer but not a sinner or God murders but is not a murderer making Him not a sinner. According to this reasoning He can commit any wicked act but not be a sinner because the rules He made were for the man He created and not for Himself... Thus He can commit acts of evil but not be considered to be an evil God (a sinner) because He does not come under the rules that He created for man. And what I find interesting about this is that there are some OT law promoters that agree with you. Seems no one here wants to dare call God a murderer they just want to go as far as saying He murdered which infers that He is a murderer. How can one say, "God murdered but He's not a murderer." Or
"God murdered but He's not a murderer because a murderer is a sinner and God is not a sinner"?

I'm no expert on other religions but I read that the Gnostics believe something similar to this: That the god who created the physical universe and all humanity with all the laws is evil and was created by Sophia, the goddess wife of the other ultimate evil god. And all the laws this evil god (created by Sophia) made for man to follow were for man and not for himself... to sort of keep man from rebelling. I can see that belief you have about God committing acts of murder and not being a murderer (sinner) because the rules He made for man do not apply to Himself is a belief that many if not most here share. No difference to me among those who belief this whether they promote OT laws or not... this is one and the same group.

If you don't care about the actual topic of the thread, why are you here?
 
Sep 1, 2013
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If you don't care about the actual topic of the thread, why are you here?
In this thread God is accused of being a murderer and a liar when the real murderers and liars are the leaders of the world’s nations under Satan and those who support their wars. So according to those like you when many come on this thread and accuse God of committing murder and being a liar then they supposedly care about the topic… and the one soul who comes on this thread in opposition to those slanderous accusations doesn’t care about the topic. If God is being gang slandered on a public forum I don’t care what the topic is about I’m going to say something about it especially when no one else does.
 
E

Ecclesiastik

Guest
In this thread God is accused of being a murderer and a liar when the real murderers and liars are the leaders of the world’s nations under Satan and those who support their wars. So according to those like you when many come on this thread and accuse God of committing murder and being a liar then they supposedly care about the topic… and the one soul who comes on this thread in opposition to those slanderous accusations doesn’t care about the topic. If God is being gang slandered on a public forum I don’t care what the topic is about I’m going to say something about it especially when no one else does.

You realize that there is a time and place for everything, right? If my pastor said something that I thought was heretical I wouldn't jump up and say "STOP THE SERMON! THAT IS NOT TRUE! And here's why.." then pull out a 20 page letter about how I don't agree with what he said and proceed to read it.

Why would I not do this? Because there is supposed to be order and respect in the house of God. To consistently derail a thread, especially when the thread is as important as a person deciding if he is going to leave the only thing he has known for the last 2 years, is disrespectful on so many different levels. If you truly think you are doing the work of God by being apathetic, disrespectful, and generally rude, then I'd think again on my knees.
 
Sep 1, 2013
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Why would I not do this? Because there is supposed to be order and respect in the house of God. .

This is not the "house of God." This is an Internet discussion board with a gang of spirits under the guise of various usernames supporting accusations against God saying He commits acts of murder and fraud. In a real house of God these accusations would not even be thought about let alone be spoken of and defended.
 
E

Ecclesiastik

Guest

This is not the "house of God." This is an Internet discussion board with a gang of spirits under the guise of various usernames supporting accusations against God saying He commits acts of murder and fraud. In a real house of God these accusations would not even be thought about let alone be spoken of and defended.
"To consistently derail a thread, especially when the thread is as important as a person deciding if he is going to leave the only thing he has known for the last 2 years, is disrespectful on so many different levels. If you truly think you are doing the work of God by being apathetic, disrespectful, and generally rude, then I'd think again on my knees. "
"
 
Sep 1, 2013
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"To consistently derail a thread, especially when the thread is as important as a person deciding if he is going to leave the only thing he has known for the last 2 years, is disrespectful on so many different levels. If you truly think you are doing the work of God by being apathetic, disrespectful, and generally rude, then I'd think again on my knees. "
"
My commentary is not off topic because it was initiated by a response to a comment you made: “It is obvious that people murdered and were sanctioned to murder in OT times.” You and others are accusing God of murder so if you find it “disrespectful, and generally rude” that someone responds to your accusations against God then you’re the one who needs to get on your knees.
 
E

Ecclesiastik

Guest
My commentary is not off topic because it was initiated by a response to a comment you made: “It is obvious that people murdered and were sanctioned to murder in OT times.” You and others are accusing God of murder so if you find it “disrespectful, and generally rude” that someone responds to your accusations against God then you’re the one who needs to get on your knees.
I don't find it disrespectful that you voice an objection. I find it disrespectful that you have chosen to continue to derail the thread when I have told you that you can pm me or start another thread about this subject. It seems you care more about being right and choices of words than about the welfare of your neighbor. You don't know how many tears I've shed about the actual subject of the thread, the mental anguish I've endured, nor the scorn I've gotten from believing that war is wrong.

So if you want to fight your battle of semantics while contributing absolutely nothing to the thread, then please take your lack of Christian charity to another thread.
 
Sep 1, 2013
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I don't find it disrespectful that you voice an objection. I find it disrespectful that you have chosen to continue to derail the thread when I have told you that you can pm me or start another thread about this subject. It seems you care more about being right and choices of words than about the welfare of your neighbor. You don't know how many tears I've shed about the actual subject of the thread, the mental anguish I've endured, nor the scorn I've gotten from believing that war is wrong.

So if you want to fight your battle of semantics while contributing absolutely nothing to the thread, then please take your lack of Christian charity to another thread.

As long as I am responding to comments that you make I am contributing to this thread. If you accuse God of being a murderer in your thread I have the liberty to respond to that accusation whether you like it or not. And if you accuse me of derailing your thread because I have responded to that accusation I have the liberty to respond to that as well whether you like it or not.
 
T

twotwo

Guest
I have heard very differing opinions from various people.

My question is: Is it morally acceptable for Christians to join (or stay in) the armed forces?

Some people say yes because John the Baptist never told the soldiers to quit their job and there are some cases of early Christians who were employed by the Roman military.

Others say no because the early church as a whole tended to be against Christians joining the military.


What are your thoughts? For a little background, I am an Air Force avionics technician.

Christianity is not about joining armed forces or not but about being a good person. Whoever do wrong will be punished for the wrong they are doing.

Military personnel often risk their life to protect their nation. What is wrong with that? Nothing! There is no greater love than to lay down his life for others.

As it is written: Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward.
 
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Bud

Guest
I feel you are doing the right thing...if you are in militery you are serving GOD And Country to me that is GOOD .
i served in the Chore in 1968 i felt it was a good service for the Lord,this takes courage and love and that is GOOD ,
KEEP THE GOOD FIGHT! AMEN
 
F

Fishbait

Guest
Most Christians have been led to believe that Scripture forbids the Taking of a life; that is to kill. That it forbids the taking of a life under any circumstance; even in Self Defense. If this is so, why would GOD tell Israel “Thou Shalt Not Kill”, yet then turn around and tell then to kill their enemies? This would seem to be a Glaring Contradiction, would it not? UNLESS, GOD Never said “Thou Shalt Not Kill” to begin with! Even though the Bible may actually say the word “Kill” in several places, is this what the Original Hebrew and Greek Texts actually say? Or, do we once again have some serious translation errors? Let’s investigate. The first place to start is in Exodus 20; the giving of the Ten Commandments.

The Fifth Commandment

In Exodus 20:13 we have the Fifth Commandment “Thou Shalt Not Kill”. Take a good look at that word “Kill”. In the Hebrew Manuscript the word is “Ratsach” which means: Murder; ie - to Murder, a Murderer; to dash to pieces. Thus, Exodus 20:13 Actually reads “Thou Shalt Not MURDER”. Next, look to Exodus 21:12 “He that smiteth a man so that he die, shall be surely put to death”. Here, the Hebrew word translated ‘Smiteth’ is “Nakah”, which means: Murder, To Slay, to make slaughter. Thus, Exodus 21:12 Actually reads “He that Murders a man so that he die, shall be surely put to death”.

Next, look to Exodus 21:14 “But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbor to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die”. The Hebrew word translated ‘Slay’ here is “Harag”, which means: To Smite with Deadly Intent; To Murder. The Hebrew word translated ‘Guile’ here is “Ormah”, which means: Trickery, Craftiness; Deceitful Strategy. Thus, Exodus 21:14 Actually “But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbor to Murder him with a Deceitful Strategy; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die”.

Now move over to Deuteronomy 19:11 + 12 “But if any man hate his neighbor, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and Smite him mortally that he die, and flee into one of these cities: Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the Avenger of Blood, that he may die”. Again, the Hebrew word translated ‘Smite’ here is “Nakah”, which means: Murder, To Slay, to make slaughter. But what is this ‘Avenger of Blood’? The Hebrew word translated ‘Avenger’ here is “Ga'al”, which means: To Redeem (According to the Ancient Law of Kinship) The Next of Kin, Kinsfolk; To Redeem Blood for Blood: ie - Revenge - The Kinsman Redeemer. So, the Murderer was to be put to death by the Nearest of Kin! But what if the death was an accident? Deuteronomy 19:2 thru 6 tells what to do with those who kill by mistake; by accident. They were to be moved away to a far off city, thereby giving the relatives of the one accidentally killed time to cool off, and to not seek revenge.

Thus you will see again and again, when the Old Testament speaks of Kill, it many times actually says ‘MURDER”, and that the Murderers were to be put to Death; by the Kinsman Redeemer! But what about the New Testament?

The Word ‘Kill’ in the New Testament


First, let’s look to Matthew 5. In verses 17 and 18, Jesus says “Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till Heaven and Earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled”. In other words, until the Eternity begins, not even the smallest punctuation mark hanges in the Law! What Law? The Ten Commandments! Next, in Matthew 5:21 Jesus says “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou Shalt Not Kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the Judgment”. Once again, we have translation problems! The Greek word translated ‘Kill’ here is “Phoneuo”, which means: To be a Murderer, to Murder - 'Phoneuo' a form of 'Phoneus' which means: A Murderer; Always a Criminal or at least Intentional Homicide. The Greek word translated ‘Judgment’ here is “Krisis”, which means: (When referring to the Divine Law) Damnation, Condemnation; Justice – Tribunal. Thus, Matthew 5:21 actually reads “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou Shalt Not Murder; and whosoever shall Murder shall be in danger of Eternal Damnation”. In other words, no Murderer can have eternal life abiding in him; and even Jesus Christ can not change this fact! He states so himself. Why is Murder so serious a crime? You not only Murder that person, but any Children the person might have had, thus destroying a whole lineage; not just that person.

Lastly look to 1John 3:15 “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no Murderer hath eternal life abiding in him”. This word ‘Hateth’ actually means: To Persecute to the Death. Thus, 1John 3:15 actually reads “Whosoever Persecutes another to their death (as Stephen was) is a murderer: and ye know that no Murderer hath eternal life abiding in him”.
So, Murder, not Killing, is forbidden by Scripture! And those who do commit Criminal Homicide (verified by at least 2 itnesses) are to be Executed, and sent to GOD. And NO MURDERER can have Eternal Life abiding in him while in the FLESH!!! The Murderer’s salvation is up to GOD the Father alone, at the final Judgment!!
 
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blueorchidjd

Guest
What about army chaplains?
 
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tucksma

Guest
Most Christians have been led to believe that Scripture forbids the Taking of a life; that is to kill. That it forbids the taking of a life under any circumstance; even in Self Defense. If this is so, why would GOD tell Israel “Thou Shalt Not Kill”, yet then turn around and tell then to kill their enemies? This would seem to be a Glaring Contradiction, would it not? UNLESS, GOD Never said “Thou Shalt Not Kill” to begin with! Even though the Bible may actually say the word “Kill” in several places, is this what the Original Hebrew and Greek Texts actually say? Or, do we once again have some serious translation errors? Let’s investigate. The first place to start is in Exodus 20; the giving of the Ten Commandments.

The Fifth Commandment

In Exodus 20:13 we have the Fifth Commandment “Thou Shalt Not Kill”. Take a good look at that word “Kill”. In the Hebrew Manuscript the word is “Ratsach” which means: Murder; ie - to Murder, a Murderer; to dash to pieces. Thus, Exodus 20:13 Actually reads “Thou Shalt Not MURDER”. Next, look to Exodus 21:12 “He that smiteth a man so that he die, shall be surely put to death”. Here, the Hebrew word translated ‘Smiteth’ is “Nakah”, which means: Murder, To Slay, to make slaughter. Thus, Exodus 21:12 Actually reads “He that Murders a man so that he die, shall be surely put to death”.

Next, look to Exodus 21:14 “But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbor to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die”. The Hebrew word translated ‘Slay’ here is “Harag”, which means: To Smite with Deadly Intent; To Murder. The Hebrew word translated ‘Guile’ here is “Ormah”, which means: Trickery, Craftiness; Deceitful Strategy. Thus, Exodus 21:14 Actually “But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbor to Murder him with a Deceitful Strategy; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die”.

Now move over to Deuteronomy 19:11 + 12 “But if any man hate his neighbor, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and Smite him mortally that he die, and flee into one of these cities: Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the Avenger of Blood, that he may die”. Again, the Hebrew word translated ‘Smite’ here is “Nakah”, which means: Murder, To Slay, to make slaughter. But what is this ‘Avenger of Blood’? The Hebrew word translated ‘Avenger’ here is “Ga'al”, which means: To Redeem (According to the Ancient Law of Kinship) The Next of Kin, Kinsfolk; To Redeem Blood for Blood: ie - Revenge - The Kinsman Redeemer. So, the Murderer was to be put to death by the Nearest of Kin! But what if the death was an accident? Deuteronomy 19:2 thru 6 tells what to do with those who kill by mistake; by accident. They were to be moved away to a far off city, thereby giving the relatives of the one accidentally killed time to cool off, and to not seek revenge.

Thus you will see again and again, when the Old Testament speaks of Kill, it many times actually says ‘MURDER”, and that the Murderers were to be put to Death; by the Kinsman Redeemer! But what about the New Testament?

The Word ‘Kill’ in the New Testament


First, let’s look to Matthew 5. In verses 17 and 18, Jesus says “Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till Heaven and Earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled”. In other words, until the Eternity begins, not even the smallest punctuation mark hanges in the Law! What Law? The Ten Commandments! Next, in Matthew 5:21 Jesus says “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou Shalt Not Kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the Judgment”. Once again, we have translation problems! The Greek word translated ‘Kill’ here is “Phoneuo”, which means: To be a Murderer, to Murder - 'Phoneuo' a form of 'Phoneus' which means: A Murderer; Always a Criminal or at least Intentional Homicide. The Greek word translated ‘Judgment’ here is “Krisis”, which means: (When referring to the Divine Law) Damnation, Condemnation; Justice – Tribunal. Thus, Matthew 5:21 actually reads “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou Shalt Not Murder; and whosoever shall Murder shall be in danger of Eternal Damnation”. In other words, no Murderer can have eternal life abiding in him; and even Jesus Christ can not change this fact! He states so himself. Why is Murder so serious a crime? You not only Murder that person, but any Children the person might have had, thus destroying a whole lineage; not just that person.

Lastly look to 1John 3:15 “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no Murderer hath eternal life abiding in him”. This word ‘Hateth’ actually means: To Persecute to the Death. Thus, 1John 3:15 actually reads “Whosoever Persecutes another to their death (as Stephen was) is a murderer: and ye know that no Murderer hath eternal life abiding in him”.
So, Murder, not Killing, is forbidden by Scripture! And those who do commit Criminal Homicide (verified by at least 2 itnesses) are to be Executed, and sent to GOD. And NO MURDERER can have Eternal Life abiding in him while in the FLESH!!! The Murderer’s salvation is up to GOD the Father alone, at the final Judgment!!

You seem to miss something. God was in charge of the army in Israel. God knows who deserves death and who doesn't. It is not sin for God to kill because God cannot sin. That doesn't make it okay for us to judge who is okay to kill or not. Also that army was under God, fighting for him. Our armies are under men, fighting for themselves. At least the U.S. army is not JUST self defense. The Korean war, Vietnam war, and about every thing we get involved in these days is not self defense and we kill TONS of people. God didn't tell them to kill, a president did.

I question self defense killing, rather it is ok or not. I know for a fact joining the military is sinful because by no means are the people in the military fighting for simple self defense. They fight to better their country, which in the process they murder, which is sinful.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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Luke 3:14 Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.” Is it odd that Jesus did not mention killing in this verse? I personally do not want to kill anyone in or out of war but if I were fighting for a country I would want to be fighting for a country that loved God.
 

John_agape

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2014
187
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I feel it comes down to the attitude of your heart. Why are you in the military?

Is being a policeman defending the security of a town wrong? The soldier is defending the security of his or her country/nation.