Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?

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watcher2013

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Aug 6, 2013
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Yes. I can find no authority to support it either in the NT, nor in early Church history. This does not suggest that I am condemning all who worship in such a fashion. That is not my place.
see how you built up your doctrine...
1. you want to prove something that does not require proving... because you can sing to God with or without instrument.
2. When you were directed to the used of Instruments of the Jews...You then based your rejection using the defence of "NT church"

It is just basic...
God did not condemn it back then...
No sin in performing it back then.
even if we are in the NT...there still no sin...

Unless you want to tied it up...it some sort of worshipping idols...
 
C

chubbena

Guest
Why did it take the church some 1800 years to realize slavery was sinful? Trying to place God in a box of the Bible alone denies his ability to reveal truth beyond the written word which was gathered and preserved by humans, the bible didn't fall out of the sky from God. Every sect has its own interpretation of the bible and divine revelation. how any can find Christ in this mess of doctrine and traditions is truly proof in and of itself that God is real, because no rational person could accept Christ in light of all the cults and sects all proclaiming divine revelation above others.
What a mess.
Do you not see everyone is still a slave one way or the other?
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
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was there a command to reject? No...
THOSE WANT TO PROVE SOMETHING WANT TO SUPPORT/PROMOTE A DOCTRINE...
The early Church did not use microphone? Does this mean they rejected Microphone?
the early Church uses wine in Lord Supper...Did the Late Church rejected the early teaching because now we used grape flavoured juice?
There was no sin in singing to God..if you used your hand...a pair of wood...as an aid to generate sound.
The use of a microphone is an aid in worship so the audience can hear the minister. A microphone doesn't change the nature of worship. It just makes it louder so people can hear. The use of instruments is often looked at as an addition to worship which wasn't authorized. It can very well change the nature of worship. One way is what I said in another thread; it can be more of a distraction than edification and praise.
To me an aid is to help spread the message. With or without a microphone is the same exact message spread? Yes it is. It is a tool used to help spread the gospel in church buildings. You could compare this to apostles speaking in tongues . They were aides so people of different languages could hear the gospel, but it did not change the message. Adding instruments is exactly that. ADDING to the worship. Is there a need for it? Is it necessary for worship so those can hear the message? It is a tool to help one sing where without it we aren't capable of singing with our voice? Can we not generate sound without it?

Theres a difference in an aid and an addition. To me, instruments is an addition. This is my PERSONAL view, and I am not going to condemn anyone who disagrees. That isn't my place, but I will do my best to explain why I see things how I do.

"Grape flavored juice" sounds like kool-aid. If one is using grape flavored juice they are doing it wrong.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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see how you built up your doctrine...
It is just basic...
God did not condemn it back then...
No sin in performing it back then.
even if we are in the NT...there still no sin...
The difference is that God commanded it under the Old Covenant worship, "Give thanks to the LORD with the lyre; Sing praises to Him with a harp of ten strings," Psalms 33:2. He has not commanded it in New Covenant worship
 
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God did not condemn slavery in the Old or New Testament. He condemned the mistreatment of slaves when they were treated as inferior. The Exodus from Egypt is a perfect example of racial slavery in the bible which is obviously condemned by God because he did release plagues on Egypt.
All of those dodges go away if you understand that beginning in the wilderness the Qahal, synagogue, ekklesia, Church of Christ (the Rock) excluded instrumental noise and rhetoric because the PURPOSE DRIVEN PURPOSE was as A School of the Word. Even the Lord's supper is to show forth or TEACH the death of Christ: that will automatically cause all men and women to be silent and sedentary so that the PURPOSE can be fulfilled "That ALL be saved (safe) and come to a knowledge of the TRUTH." The Word or Logos or Regulative Principle IS the Truth.

So, task one: define a Christian is a Disciple OF CHRIST. A Disciple is a STUDENT. The resource is what Jesus commanded to be taught. A believer is "washed with water" INTO the Word meaning INTO the School of Christ.

Giving heed to the WORD is the only "worship concept" for the godly people who attended synagogue or for Christians who attend A School of Christ. Good luck finding one. "Shall He find faith when He returns?" The answer is almost none. Jesus said the kingdom does not come with observation: that means RELIGIOUS OBSERVATIONS or performance religion.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
1,931
108
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The use of a microphone is an aid in worship so the audience can hear the minister. A microphone doesn't change the nature of worship. It just makes it louder so people can hear. The use of instruments is often looked at as an addition to worship which wasn't authorized. It can very well change the nature of worship. One way is what I said in another thread; it can be more of a distraction than edification and praise.
To me an aid is to help spread the message. With or without a microphone is the same exact message spread? Yes it is. It is a tool used to help spread the gospel in church buildings. You could compare this to apostles speaking in tongues . They were aides so people of different languages could hear the gospel, but it did not change the message. Adding instruments is exactly that. ADDING to the worship. Is there a need for it? Is it necessary for worship so those can hear the message? It is a tool to help one sing where without it we aren't capable of singing with our voice? Can we not generate sound without it?

Theres a difference in an aid and an addition. To me, instruments is an addition. This is my PERSONAL view, and I am not going to condemn anyone who disagrees. That isn't my place, but I will do my best to explain why I see things how I do.

"Grape flavored juice" sounds like kool-aid. If one is using grape flavored juice they are doing it wrong.
the reason for rejecting instruments was they sing to God...so if they are singing to God...there is no need for microphone... God can hear you even you whisper.
 
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Christ commanded the TRUE LAW OF SILENCE Including "the Lord is in His Holy Temple let all the earth keep silent before Him." He also defined the WORD or LOGOS as excluding anything not commanded in that short period when the church assembles without discord.

Churches of Christ use the Law of Silence to say that If something has not been commanded then it is not required to be a Church. It should not be added especially since instrumentalists know that they will sow discord and in the modern sense "count the cost" of loosing all of those old owners.

The instrumentalist's Law of Silence as on record is "If God has not said DON'T DO do something then I have the right to IMPOSE instruments and that becomes the law of Christ.

However, the Bible defines the Law of Silence to EXCLUDE anything not commanded. The Law of Moses did not include musical instruments and the testimony or prophets specificially condemn instruments and all of the performance arts and crafts which Jesus and the Greek literature defines as HYPOCRITES.

If you are playing and instrument and REPRESENT it as coming from God that is defined as an idol and hypocritic. Elders are commanded to teach that which has been taught.

The Spirit OF Christ often defines the Regulative Principle including the proper meaning of the Law of Silence. We are driven into silence when we begin to grasp the distance between God an ourselves.

Isa 8:10
Take counsel together,
and it shall come to nought;
speak the word, and it shall not stand:
for God is with us.

Isa 8:11 For the Lord spake thus to me with a strong hand,
and instructed me that
I should not walk in the way of this people, saying,

Isa 8:12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say,
A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.

Isa 8:13 Sanctify the Lord of hosts himself;
and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
And he shall be for a sanctuary;

Isa 8:14 but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence
to both the houses of Israel,
for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isa 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Christ warns about the instrumental devices: the familiar spirit used by the Witch of Endor was a dried up wineskin which echoed and has much the same meaning as the NEBEL or harp.

Isa 8:19And when they shall say unto you,
Seek unto them that have familiar spirits,
and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter:
should not a people seek unto their God?
for the living to the dead?

[SIZE=+1]To the law and to the testimony:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]if they speak not according to this word[/SIZE][SIZE=+1],[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]it is because there is no light in them.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] Isa 8:20 [/SIZE]
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
Yes. I can find no authority to support it either in the NT, nor in early Church history. This does not suggest that I am condemning all who worship in such a fashion. That is not my place.
I am going to ask you a silly question and I want your point of view.
Is is scriptural for any member of the Church of Christ to condemn or tell anyone that if they don't worship the way the CoC does then they're going to Hell or not a real Christian? Or are we supposed to criticize anyone who doesn't see the gspel the same way the CoC does?

I am not saying you believe this way, but you know I admire you. I just wanted your point of view since you and I have never talked about this.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
1,931
108
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The difference is that God commanded it under the Old Covenant worship, "Give thanks to the LORD with the lyre; Sing praises to Him with a harp of ten strings," Psalms 33:2. He has not commanded it in New Covenant worship
what was the consequences of not praising him with harps of ten strings?
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
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48
the reason for rejecting instruments was they sing to God...so if they are singing to God...there is no need for microphone... God can hear you even you whisper.
When I sing I don't use a microphone. I am in the audience singing along with others who also do not use microphone. The microphone in my church is used for the song leader while singing. Not every person singing.

microphone=increasing the sound
instruments=adding to the sound
 
C

chubbena

Guest
The use of a microphone is an aid in worship so the audience can hear the minister. A microphone doesn't change the nature of worship. It just makes it louder so people can hear....
It makes me wonder how the 5000 or the 4000 could hear Yeshua and the 3000 in Acts. Hmmm... :)
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
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Alabama
I am going to ask you a silly question and I want your point of view.
Is is scriptural for any member of the Church of Christ to condemn or tell anyone that if they don't worship the way the CoC does then they're going to Hell or not a real Christian? Or are we supposed to criticize anyone who doesn't see the gspel the same way the CoC does?

I am not saying you believe this way, but you know I admire you. I just wanted your point of view since you and I have never talked about this.
The only thing I can do is simply present the Word of God as it is revealed with in the grammatical structure of the text. I have no right to condemn anyone because they may reject it. That is not my place. I really do not care who is right, I simply want to know what is right. Once we are able to determine from scripture what is right it is a simple matter to see who is right. Let God take care of the deciding those who are his. I like the principle that shows up in the parable of the Prodigal Son. I can only call him brother whom the Lord will call "MY son".
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
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Alabama
When I sing I don't use a microphone. I am in the audience singing along with others who also do not use microphone. The microphone in my church is used for the song leader while singing. Not every person singing.

microphone=increasing the sound
instruments=adding to the sound
I have led singing for congregations of 2000 people. I cannot imagine trying to do that without the aid of a microphone.
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
The only thing I can do is simply present the Word of God as it is revealed with in the grammatical structure of the text. I have no right to condemn anyone because they may reject it. That is not my place. I really do not care who is right, I simply want to know what is right. Once we are able to determine from scripture what is right it is a simple matter to see who is right. Let God take care of the deciding those who are his. I like the principle that shows up in the parable of the Prodigal Son. I can only call him brother whom the Lord will call "MY son".
Thank you. After all the recent Church of Christ bashing and calling us a cult I became very discouraged. Not in my faith, but in my brothers and sisters in Christ. I even became more discouraged when our own brother in the Church of Christ took it upon himself to criticize anyone who wasn't church of christ. I found that to be an ungodly approach. Yet there are still some who refuse to understand the true teachings we believe and continue to slander us. Mainly because the internet tells them we are bad people so they are convinced we are without really looking into the matter.
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
it can be done...what I am saying is there is no wrong it doing it with instruments.
Not necessarily. You should watch me listen to an orchestra. I become more entranced in the instruments than the actual words of a song. That's not good lol. I do love instruments. I used to play trumpet in high school. I love listening to the radio, and nine times out of ten I prefer the tune than the message in the song. That right there is the very reason I sing acapella. I personally cannot praise God when I am sitting there thinking "ohhhhhh that piano sounds so pretty".
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
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Not necessarily. You should watch me listen to an orchestra. I become more entranced in the instruments than the actual words of a song. That's not good lol. I do love instruments. I used to play trumpet in high school. I love listening to the radio, and nine times out of ten I prefer the tune than the message in the song. That right there is the very reason I sing acapella. I personally cannot praise God when I am sitting there thinking "ohhhhhh that piano sounds so pretty".
I am a huge fan of classical orchestral music but I cannot imagine trying to worship in song with that type of distraction going on around me.
 
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At least for the last solid 100 years Churches of Christ have been under brutal attack and more and more attempts to, as they say, infiltrate and divert. One magazine and instrumental headquarters used false preachers to explain HOW to transistion a happy Church of Christ into the instrumental sect. CULT, sectarian, patternist,traditionalists, bombers of abortion clinics and many more words are used to discredit churches of Christ. You cannot possibly find any other group so despised and rejected because they will not CONFORM to using instruments so that we can be "united."

Sometimes or even often when Scripture is quoted people hear "you are condemning everyone who does not agree with you." I have done that been there for my aware 83 years and that statement seems to come from people OUTSIDE of the church or who have been "hurt" in some way. No one speaks for Churches of Christ but Christ and people work really hard to use songs and sermons to silence Him. Here is what prophecy and fulfilment says. It's ok to go ahead and say that the writers were judgmental.

Psalm 41 prophesied that Judas would attempt to triumph over Messiah and fail. However, the Levites musically mocked Jesus. The Dead Sea Version gives greater detail.

UNDER ATTACK BY THE LEVITES

Dead Sea Scroll Translation: They have overtaken me in a narrow pass (gap) without escape And there is no rest for me in my trial.
They
sound my censure upon a harp and their murmuring and storming upon a zither." Ps.41:11

In a short time fulfillment by the Levites who performed at all sacrifices not commanded by God.

Mark 10:34 And they shall mock him,

empaizō , fut. hēdonais
Paizo, 4. play on a musical instrument, h.Ap.206: c. acc., “Pan ho kalamophthogga paizōn” Ar.Ra.230; dance and sing, Pi. O.1.16. 5. play amorously, “pros allēlous” X.Smp.9.2

Prospaizō, prospaizousa tois ōmois komē playing over, II. c. acc., theous p. sing to the gods, sing in their praise or honour, Pl.Epin.980b: c. dupl. acc., humnon prosepaisamen . . ton . . Erōta sang a hymn in praise of Eros, Id.Phdr.265c. 2. banter , “tousrhētorasId.Mx.235c, cf. Euthd.285a; p. ton kuna, ton arkton, , humnon pr. ton

However IN VICTORY:

Then will I play on
the zither of deliverance
and harp of joy,
on the tabors of prayer and the pipe of praise
without end.


Latin Illudo Applied as a term of reproach, eloquence, rhētor but with idea of contempt, caneret,”

A.
Of men: “si absurde canat, of the crooked race, a reed pipe, a guitar, crowing of a hen tibiae, tubae, Gallus , i, m., = Gallos Strab., A. Galli , the priests of Cybele Gallic:turma,” the troop of the priests of Isis, Ov. Am. 2, 13, 18. “resupinati cessantia tympana Galli,” [resupinati cessantia tympana Galli, i. e. prostrate from drunkenness]

Jesus promises to be with us when we assembly in His Name and authority: for one hour out of 168 shouldn't one group get the right to respond to Jesus when He asks, "Could you not wait for Me one houre."

It is a fact that Scripture and the Greek text defines musical sounds as sorcery because it exercise a powerful effect to shut down the spiritual or rational mind. It is not cultic to quote recorded history because MANY (most) are called but FEW (almost none) are Chosen Elected or who accept the invitation to become part of the body CALLED OUT OF THE WORLD.
 
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