Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible
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I've never heard that. I read something about him going to see her grave, hoping to get some kind of anointing maybe, but not about talking with her ghost.
From time to time, Benny Hinn has said something doctrinally outlandish, and then recanted. A few years ago, he was quoting someone's prophecy or assertion that Jesus would appear physically on stage at one of his meetings. I was wondering why he wouldn't 'screen' something like that internally before sharing it.
From time to time, Benny Hinn has said something doctrinally outlandish, and then recanted. A few years ago, he was quoting someone's prophecy or assertion that Jesus would appear physically on stage at one of his meetings. I was wondering why he wouldn't 'screen' something like that internally before sharing it.
UMM How about Benny saying it in his own words,about some visions he had and also what happens when he goes to their grave site. This is a transcript from the Benny Hinn programme "This is your day" he did June 11,1997,he also repeated this at a Benny Hinn Partner conference in Atlanta,GA
Please note due to the length I am only posting parts the complete transcript is in the links below
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]"Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to tell you something right now. The Lord showed me a vision about - goodness it's almost been a year now. And - (I) can tell you I sense now the time has come when this vision is gonna be fulfilled. I had a vision of the night. What I saw, myself walk into a room. I've shared this before but just in case you - you've not heard it I want you to hear it. I saw myself walk into a room and there stood Kathryn Khulman.
[/SIZE]And I've not seen Kathryn in a dream or a vision [in] years. Uh, when she died, the day she died, the morning she died, I had a dream what I - what I saw in a - in a - in a - in a casket with a white dress. And when I woke up in - in the morning, I knew she had died and it was on the news that same morning. And so it's been many years.
.........
"Well, anyway, in this one, in this vision that-that I saw-saw Miss Khulman. And she said, 'Follow me.' That's all she said. And I followed her to a second room. In that second room stood the Lord. When the Lord, uh-when-when I saw the lord, Kathryn disappeared. She was just gone [Hinn snaps fingers]. And now the Lord looked at me and said, 'Follow me.' And I followed him to a third room. In the third room sat a gentleman - I still remember his face. I can tell you, I still remember the man's face. And the man sat in this wheelchair in that third room. There was a big hole in his neck. A tube down his throat. He was crippled on that wheelchair. And he had tubes down his body. Totally crippled, totally para-totally, of course, paralyzed. The Lord laid His hands on this man and as He did the tubes disappeared, the hole closed, he was completely healed and got up off the wheelchair. It was a creative miracle. Now I'm standing watching the Lord in this vision heal this man. And now as the man wasealed, the Lord looked at me with piercing eyes - I'll not forget that one I'll tell you. (He) looked at me with piercing eyes and said, 'DO IT!' And the [Hinn snaps fingers] - and the dream and the vision came to an end." (Benny Hinn, This Is Your Day, June 11, 1997)
...........
This is from a sermon he did
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[TD][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1] "One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee's tomb in California. This Thursday I'm on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Khulman's tomb. It's close by Aimee's in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I've been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects 'cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she's buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can't get in without a key and I'm one of the very few people who can get in. But I'll never forget when I saw Aimee's tomb. It's incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As-as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I - I, hear this,' I trembled when I visited Aimee's tomb. I was shaking all over. God's power came all over me. ... I believe the anointing has linged over Aimee's body. I know this may be shocking to you.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]... And I'm going to take David (Psalmquist) and Kent (Mattox and Sheryl Psalmquist) this week. They're gonna come with me. You-you-you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee's tomb. It's incredible. And Kathryn's. It's amazing. I've heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God's power. You say, 'What a crazy thing.' Brother, there's things we'll never understand. Are you all hearing me?"[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1](Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV# 309,)[/SIZE][/FONT]
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Please note due to the length I am only posting parts the complete transcript is in the links below
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]"Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to tell you something right now. The Lord showed me a vision about - goodness it's almost been a year now. And - (I) can tell you I sense now the time has come when this vision is gonna be fulfilled. I had a vision of the night. What I saw, myself walk into a room. I've shared this before but just in case you - you've not heard it I want you to hear it. I saw myself walk into a room and there stood Kathryn Khulman.
[/SIZE]And I've not seen Kathryn in a dream or a vision [in] years. Uh, when she died, the day she died, the morning she died, I had a dream what I - what I saw in a - in a - in a - in a casket with a white dress. And when I woke up in - in the morning, I knew she had died and it was on the news that same morning. And so it's been many years.
.........
"Well, anyway, in this one, in this vision that-that I saw-saw Miss Khulman. And she said, 'Follow me.' That's all she said. And I followed her to a second room. In that second room stood the Lord. When the Lord, uh-when-when I saw the lord, Kathryn disappeared. She was just gone [Hinn snaps fingers]. And now the Lord looked at me and said, 'Follow me.' And I followed him to a third room. In the third room sat a gentleman - I still remember his face. I can tell you, I still remember the man's face. And the man sat in this wheelchair in that third room. There was a big hole in his neck. A tube down his throat. He was crippled on that wheelchair. And he had tubes down his body. Totally crippled, totally para-totally, of course, paralyzed. The Lord laid His hands on this man and as He did the tubes disappeared, the hole closed, he was completely healed and got up off the wheelchair. It was a creative miracle. Now I'm standing watching the Lord in this vision heal this man. And now as the man wasealed, the Lord looked at me with piercing eyes - I'll not forget that one I'll tell you. (He) looked at me with piercing eyes and said, 'DO IT!' And the [Hinn snaps fingers] - and the dream and the vision came to an end." (Benny Hinn, This Is Your Day, June 11, 1997)
...........
This is from a sermon he did
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[TD][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1] "One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee's tomb in California. This Thursday I'm on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Khulman's tomb. It's close by Aimee's in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I've been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects 'cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she's buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can't get in without a key and I'm one of the very few people who can get in. But I'll never forget when I saw Aimee's tomb. It's incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As-as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I - I, hear this,' I trembled when I visited Aimee's tomb. I was shaking all over. God's power came all over me. ... I believe the anointing has linged over Aimee's body. I know this may be shocking to you.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]... And I'm going to take David (Psalmquist) and Kent (Mattox and Sheryl Psalmquist) this week. They're gonna come with me. You-you-you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee's tomb. It's incredible. And Kathryn's. It's amazing. I've heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God's power. You say, 'What a crazy thing.' Brother, there's things we'll never understand. Are you all hearing me?"[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1](Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV# 309,)[/SIZE][/FONT]
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Shocking facts about Benny Hinn...
Benny Hinn's Heresies
So who or what is the source of his anointing? Who or what is the source of his tongues?
[/TD]Benny Hinn's Heresies
So who or what is the source of his anointing? Who or what is the source of his tongues?
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Nice theory. One problem with it. It ignores what I Corinthians says. Paul writes of the one speaking in tongues 'no man understandeth him.' Several of the verses, including one you quoted recently, point out that listeners cannot understand what he is saying. He argued the case that the tongues spoken to the church should be interpreted to edify the church. The idea that people present would understand isn't covered in the passage and doesn't fit with his argument here, 'no man understandeth him.'
And honestly, sometimes I read these posts from the various cessationists on this thread about how tongues today have to be in languages people present understand or it's not real and I think haven't they read I Corinthians 14? We are even quoting and discussing the verses. The Corinthians had genuine gifts and no one present understood the tongues. The tongues needed to be interpreted.
Speaking in tongues is one thing. God lining it up so that someone present understands is another issue. God doesn't have to have people who understand the languages present for the gift to be genuine.
A similar situation pertains to false doctrine. It spreads - "their word will eat as doth a canker (gangrene): of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; who concerning the truth have erred …" 2 Tim 2: Interestingly Paul named the false teachers of his day, to protect the Church. He would do the same now, if he were with us. Benny Hinn has acknowledged that his hugely popular "GOOD MORNING HOLY SPIRIT" contained heresy. So what does he do about it? On the occasion of his acceptance into the AOG credentialed ministry in USA he said he would write another book to reflect his changed position. The end result is total, utter and absolute confusion. So now not only do you have heresy but you also have widespread confusion and it's all because the proper, biblical remedy is not instituted. By his own confession Mr Hinn is a heretic and therefore not worthy to occupy the position of a teacher in the Christian Church (c/f James 3: 1-2). He should stop writing and preaching and put himself under discipline until he knows and understands what are the basic truths of Scripture. May be he should enroll in a good Bible School. Because the book (and other material) containing the heresy cannot be withdrawn and because the heretic is not properly disciplined it is inevitable that further heretical teachings will proceed from Mr Hinn and that is exactly what has happened and will continue to happen - "a little leaven leavens the whole lump". In this corrupting of the charismatic and Pentecostal Church the leaders who endorse or sponsor Benny Hinn must share the responsibility for what is happening.
It is now clearly established and well documented that Mr Benny Hinn practices necromancy, which is absolutely forbidden in the Bible. (See WWW reference at end of this article or order the book THE CONFUSING WORLD OF BENNY HINN from CWM at $21 incl post). Bad as this is the matter is even worse. The above book alleges and provides undeniable evidence for the conclusion that a much younger Benny Hinn, in an attempt to establish a mystique and aura, has published down-right lies and gross exaggerations about himself and his ministry. (The publishers of the above listed book were contacted by Hinn's Lawyer requesting that they withdraw it. They refused.) Developing, in people's minds, a mystique about oneself by telling stories about supposed spiritual encounters or imaginary healings is a ruse employed by a number of so called ministers. Benny Hinn has used the device to great effect. Some of those who endorse him have been presented with the facts and the evidence, but they continue their support. In so doing they are themselves guilty of the huge deception that is taking place among God's people. We call on them to repent.
Unmasked.....Benny Hinn
It is now clearly established and well documented that Mr Benny Hinn practices necromancy, which is absolutely forbidden in the Bible. (See WWW reference at end of this article or order the book THE CONFUSING WORLD OF BENNY HINN from CWM at $21 incl post). Bad as this is the matter is even worse. The above book alleges and provides undeniable evidence for the conclusion that a much younger Benny Hinn, in an attempt to establish a mystique and aura, has published down-right lies and gross exaggerations about himself and his ministry. (The publishers of the above listed book were contacted by Hinn's Lawyer requesting that they withdraw it. They refused.) Developing, in people's minds, a mystique about oneself by telling stories about supposed spiritual encounters or imaginary healings is a ruse employed by a number of so called ministers. Benny Hinn has used the device to great effect. Some of those who endorse him have been presented with the facts and the evidence, but they continue their support. In so doing they are themselves guilty of the huge deception that is taking place among God's people. We call on them to repent.
Unmasked.....Benny Hinn
He does sometimes, but not always.
Mostly He does miracles to meet people where they are at and then teaches them about the Kingdom of God.
This is the same model we should follow.
Other times He teaches about the Kingdom of God and then He does miracles.
This is another model we should follow.
The miracles validated His teaching. He still validates His children with miracles today. They point to Him. It's much easier to talk to atheists about God, when you have a prophetic word for them or they get healed. Darwin doesn't even come up.
Yesterday I was at a church my friend was guest preaching at, afterwards he did an alter call for anyone who wanted healing or encouragement. We prayed for a lady who had wheezing from COPD and also some kind of skin thing going on that itched really badly..
As we were praying she said her skin got hot where it itched, and it stopped itching, I noticed it cleared up a bit also. I knew God was doing something there. When she breathed in her wheezing was gone. So, I knew God was doing something there as well.
Her response? Tears in her eyes, she praised Jesus.
Another lady came up and wanted encouragement, but "only wanted the good things" spoken to her. So many people think God is so angry with them and up there with a giant holy fly swatter waiting for them to step out of line.
Healing reveals the goodness and authority of God. Prophesy shares His love for them, reveals the secrets of their heart, and they will fall down and worship God.
C.
Mostly He does miracles to meet people where they are at and then teaches them about the Kingdom of God.
This is the same model we should follow.
Other times He teaches about the Kingdom of God and then He does miracles.
This is another model we should follow.
The miracles validated His teaching. He still validates His children with miracles today. They point to Him. It's much easier to talk to atheists about God, when you have a prophetic word for them or they get healed. Darwin doesn't even come up.
Yesterday I was at a church my friend was guest preaching at, afterwards he did an alter call for anyone who wanted healing or encouragement. We prayed for a lady who had wheezing from COPD and also some kind of skin thing going on that itched really badly..
As we were praying she said her skin got hot where it itched, and it stopped itching, I noticed it cleared up a bit also. I knew God was doing something there. When she breathed in her wheezing was gone. So, I knew God was doing something there as well.
Her response? Tears in her eyes, she praised Jesus.
Another lady came up and wanted encouragement, but "only wanted the good things" spoken to her. So many people think God is so angry with them and up there with a giant holy fly swatter waiting for them to step out of line.
Healing reveals the goodness and authority of God. Prophesy shares His love for them, reveals the secrets of their heart, and they will fall down and worship God.
C.
Zone, take your judgmental synod and shove it.
How was B.T.K. by the way?
Do you know how the police caught him?
He was using a printer at his Lutheran Church where he was a foremost layperson.
The reporters asked the pastor if he believed in Satan now.(Because the church was amillennialist)
What did the pastor say? - 'No can do'.
A Missouri serial killer who was the lay person of the year one year for a Lutheran Church.
But you continue casting aspersions.
How was B.T.K. by the way?
Do you know how the police caught him?
He was using a printer at his Lutheran Church where he was a foremost layperson.
The reporters asked the pastor if he believed in Satan now.(Because the church was amillennialist)
What did the pastor say? - 'No can do'.
A Missouri serial killer who was the lay person of the year one year for a Lutheran Church.
But you continue casting aspersions.
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so
So in other words, in order to believe what the Bible has to say about prophets being in the church, someone on this board has to give you proof? I haven't carried a video camera around with me to video tape every prophecy I've received or seen given in church. In the Bible, the testimony of witnesses is evidence, but you dismiss it as hearsay.
So now that we have the book, we don't have to believe what the book says or do it? The problem is, the Bible doesn't teach that. I Corinthians 1 gives us an idea of what chapter 13 is about when Paul writes of coming behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our having the Bible does not make our speech, knowledge, and understanding superior to Paul's either. Even many non-Charismatic or non-continualist authors realize this. Even Reformed preachers and theologians have realized this, like Martin Lloyd Jones, John Calvin, and even the anti-charismatic John MacArthur says the passage is referring to the eternal state.
I tell you about a man getting very specific prophecies and you seem to draw a conclusion or imply that this comes from a familiar spirit? Based on what? You don't even have any hearsay or any evidence whatsoever to condemn the man or the gifts he is operating in. Why should I bear a burden of proof? If you encounter a prophecy you test it. I don't see how one is obligated to dig up prophecies from other places and times and judge all of them, or how I am required to give you some sort of proof of the events of a church gathering I witnessed.
The Bible shows that prophets can get very detailed information, like Elisha knowing what a foreign king said in his bedroom, or the specific personal prophecies that Samuel or Agabus gave. The Bible does not teach that only familiar spirits do such things. The Bible, speaking of the body, says that to one is given the word of knowledge.... to another prophecy by the same Spirit. So if there is a believer in Jesus who professes the same faith in the same Christ, and then he gives a prophecy, what is your basis for condemning him of hearing from demons? Would have done that if you had lived in the first century?
It seems like your idea of people who operate in certain spiritual gifts is formed from some kind of characterature you've made of certain TV preachers and maybe some people you've seen in real life. If you were an unbeliever and went to a church with the same brand-name or no-brand name you go to now, and met a hypocrite or someone who was weird, you could post the same kind of thing about preachers who preach on salvation, or against all pastors or elders of churches.
I encountered a man online who thought elders were evil. When he was a child, he said his dad turned evil after becoming an elder and some elders kicked him out of a church because they said he was divisive. He let his experience and his attitude he developed from it effect his interpretation of scripture. He ended up thinking of much of the Bible as an account of Paul teaching the wrong things, though he accepted much of Pauline theology. It's possible to do the same sort of thing with other ministries and gifts, like the gift of prophecy or tongues, interpretation, miracles, etc. Jesus warned there would be false prophets, but then said He was sending prophets of His own. Jesus sent true apostles, but there were also false apostles. There are also immature believers who can fall into carnality, disorder, and various other problems.
There are some things you come to know as you grow in your relationship with God. The way John said to test the spirits was that every spirit that confessed that Christ is come in the flesh is from God. I take this to mean the readers were testing the spirits manifesting through other peoples' words, moreso than testing their own spirits.
Someone could also ask you how do you know your faith in Christ isn't some kind of demonic deception, that you just thought you were convicted of sin, but how do you know that demons did not convince you that you were, or some other such line of reasoning. I don't see where the Bible teaches us to have this type of suspicion. Paul wrote 'Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Hold fast to that which is good.'
If you go into it thinking that the prophecies are all going to be the words of familiar spirits, that's despising prophesyings. If a church shuts down prophesyings to prevent the possibility of familiar spirits doing anything, then it can quench the Spirit. The Bible says not to do that. You judge or weigh prophecies carefully after they are spoken.
Have carried a tape recorder around with me every day from the 1980's?
God can sound a trumpet if He wants to, or have angels 7 trumpets if He so chooses. And what vision is undeniable? The person receiving the visions sees it. Anyone else that wants to be a scoffer can deny it even if it is real. The prophets faced plenty of scoffers.
Show me in the Bible where God has limited the types of revelations He gives to those things. She me where it says He no longer has either the power or the willingness to heal instantaneously. Why do some genuine believers still get healed instantaneously? Would you tell the person doing the ministering or the person receiving healing the healing wasn't genuine because it was instantaneous?
Maybe you don't. Maybe I've only seen the former a few times. My wife may have witnessed the latter when she prayed for a fellow who wasn't breathing after a car accident in a crowd full of Muslims back before I met her.
All things are possible to him that believes. Do you believe that?
There could be some of that. But there could have been some of that in the first century as well. What do you do when people DO pass the test that I John gives of testing the spirits to see if they are from God? What do you do of those who believe and confess that Christ came in the flesh or exercise these spiritual gifts? On what basis do you accuse them of having familiar spirits? Would that be the same basis you would use the judge the apostles of the same thing if you were living in the first century?
There are also those who don't believe what the Bible teaches about spiritual gifts and therefore reject them. Or they may have had a bad experience with people claiming to have a message from God, who, out of emotion, want to quench the Spirit and despise prophesyings, writing them off before they even hear or consider the message.
I just think you have a limited set of experiences and treat them as if they are representative of reality. Some people have a gift of discernment of spirits.
What is a forerunner of these types of churches? Are you talking about historical figures that zone has been talking about? I haven't addressed all of the articles. I just skim forums sometimes. The Parham article had some inaccuracies in it. Most Pentecostals don't identify with either Parham or Seymour. It's not a movement based on allegiance to certain historical figures. It isn't named after them or other leaders like Lutheranism or the Weslyan movement. I look at some of the statements, like Sanford being Parham's 'mentor'. Really? What is the evidence for that. Parham went with Sanford to an evangelistic crusade, did not like some things he saw, and went elsewhere.
What do you mean 'debunked'. If Parham believed in British Israelitism, does that mean nothing he did had any value? I could show you some quotes from Luther you would seriously disagree with, as would most Lutherans. I could also show you his rant against the Jews. Does that mean God did not use Martin Luther? Did Wesley's relationship with his wife mean he did nothing useful? Have you ever sinned or had a wrong idea on some issue.
It is ironic how readily some of the posters and the sources they quote will call the views of others 'heresies' when they are defending a divisive position which contradicts scripture and leads believers to disobey the commandments of the Lord when it comes to spiritual gifts.
So in other words, in order to believe what the Bible has to say about prophets being in the church, someone on this board has to give you proof? I haven't carried a video camera around with me to video tape every prophecy I've received or seen given in church. In the Bible, the testimony of witnesses is evidence, but you dismiss it as hearsay.
So now that we have the book, we don't have to believe what the book says or do it? The problem is, the Bible doesn't teach that. I Corinthians 1 gives us an idea of what chapter 13 is about when Paul writes of coming behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our having the Bible does not make our speech, knowledge, and understanding superior to Paul's either. Even many non-Charismatic or non-continualist authors realize this. Even Reformed preachers and theologians have realized this, like Martin Lloyd Jones, John Calvin, and even the anti-charismatic John MacArthur says the passage is referring to the eternal state.
I tell you about a man getting very specific prophecies and you seem to draw a conclusion or imply that this comes from a familiar spirit? Based on what? You don't even have any hearsay or any evidence whatsoever to condemn the man or the gifts he is operating in. Why should I bear a burden of proof? If you encounter a prophecy you test it. I don't see how one is obligated to dig up prophecies from other places and times and judge all of them, or how I am required to give you some sort of proof of the events of a church gathering I witnessed.
The Bible shows that prophets can get very detailed information, like Elisha knowing what a foreign king said in his bedroom, or the specific personal prophecies that Samuel or Agabus gave. The Bible does not teach that only familiar spirits do such things. The Bible, speaking of the body, says that to one is given the word of knowledge.... to another prophecy by the same Spirit. So if there is a believer in Jesus who professes the same faith in the same Christ, and then he gives a prophecy, what is your basis for condemning him of hearing from demons? Would have done that if you had lived in the first century?
It seems like your idea of people who operate in certain spiritual gifts is formed from some kind of characterature you've made of certain TV preachers and maybe some people you've seen in real life. If you were an unbeliever and went to a church with the same brand-name or no-brand name you go to now, and met a hypocrite or someone who was weird, you could post the same kind of thing about preachers who preach on salvation, or against all pastors or elders of churches.
I encountered a man online who thought elders were evil. When he was a child, he said his dad turned evil after becoming an elder and some elders kicked him out of a church because they said he was divisive. He let his experience and his attitude he developed from it effect his interpretation of scripture. He ended up thinking of much of the Bible as an account of Paul teaching the wrong things, though he accepted much of Pauline theology. It's possible to do the same sort of thing with other ministries and gifts, like the gift of prophecy or tongues, interpretation, miracles, etc. Jesus warned there would be false prophets, but then said He was sending prophets of His own. Jesus sent true apostles, but there were also false apostles. There are also immature believers who can fall into carnality, disorder, and various other problems.
There are some things you come to know as you grow in your relationship with God. The way John said to test the spirits was that every spirit that confessed that Christ is come in the flesh is from God. I take this to mean the readers were testing the spirits manifesting through other peoples' words, moreso than testing their own spirits.
Someone could also ask you how do you know your faith in Christ isn't some kind of demonic deception, that you just thought you were convicted of sin, but how do you know that demons did not convince you that you were, or some other such line of reasoning. I don't see where the Bible teaches us to have this type of suspicion. Paul wrote 'Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Hold fast to that which is good.'
If you go into it thinking that the prophecies are all going to be the words of familiar spirits, that's despising prophesyings. If a church shuts down prophesyings to prevent the possibility of familiar spirits doing anything, then it can quench the Spirit. The Bible says not to do that. You judge or weigh prophecies carefully after they are spoken.
Have carried a tape recorder around with me every day from the 1980's?
God can sound a trumpet if He wants to, or have angels 7 trumpets if He so chooses. And what vision is undeniable? The person receiving the visions sees it. Anyone else that wants to be a scoffer can deny it even if it is real. The prophets faced plenty of scoffers.
Show me in the Bible where God has limited the types of revelations He gives to those things. She me where it says He no longer has either the power or the willingness to heal instantaneously. Why do some genuine believers still get healed instantaneously? Would you tell the person doing the ministering or the person receiving healing the healing wasn't genuine because it was instantaneous?
Maybe you don't. Maybe I've only seen the former a few times. My wife may have witnessed the latter when she prayed for a fellow who wasn't breathing after a car accident in a crowd full of Muslims back before I met her.
All things are possible to him that believes. Do you believe that?
There could be some of that. But there could have been some of that in the first century as well. What do you do when people DO pass the test that I John gives of testing the spirits to see if they are from God? What do you do of those who believe and confess that Christ came in the flesh or exercise these spiritual gifts? On what basis do you accuse them of having familiar spirits? Would that be the same basis you would use the judge the apostles of the same thing if you were living in the first century?
There are also those who don't believe what the Bible teaches about spiritual gifts and therefore reject them. Or they may have had a bad experience with people claiming to have a message from God, who, out of emotion, want to quench the Spirit and despise prophesyings, writing them off before they even hear or consider the message.
I just think you have a limited set of experiences and treat them as if they are representative of reality. Some people have a gift of discernment of spirits.
What is a forerunner of these types of churches? Are you talking about historical figures that zone has been talking about? I haven't addressed all of the articles. I just skim forums sometimes. The Parham article had some inaccuracies in it. Most Pentecostals don't identify with either Parham or Seymour. It's not a movement based on allegiance to certain historical figures. It isn't named after them or other leaders like Lutheranism or the Weslyan movement. I look at some of the statements, like Sanford being Parham's 'mentor'. Really? What is the evidence for that. Parham went with Sanford to an evangelistic crusade, did not like some things he saw, and went elsewhere.
What do you mean 'debunked'. If Parham believed in British Israelitism, does that mean nothing he did had any value? I could show you some quotes from Luther you would seriously disagree with, as would most Lutherans. I could also show you his rant against the Jews. Does that mean God did not use Martin Luther? Did Wesley's relationship with his wife mean he did nothing useful? Have you ever sinned or had a wrong idea on some issue.
It is ironic how readily some of the posters and the sources they quote will call the views of others 'heresies' when they are defending a divisive position which contradicts scripture and leads believers to disobey the commandments of the Lord when it comes to spiritual gifts.
Such a mistake, he was a Wichita Kansas Lutheran serial killer instead of a Missouri Lutheran serial killer.
Thanks for the correction. (200 mile difference)
His church was amillenialist. (In other words they believe Satan is bound), .....so the reporters politely asked - "What about this guy who was a bishop in your church? How could you not know? How was it you had no idea that he was the 'bind, torture, and kill' serial rapist/killer?" - You can look up his response on google.
- - -As I said, the police caught him because he was using a church printer to taunt them.(They traced it back)
No amillinieallist serial rapist/killers in the pentecostal set,.....kind of gets in the way of the prayer language. - (With all of the binding, torturing, raping, and killing). - Yup, that sort of activity is frowned upon by the Holy Spirit and God in general; - (If you don't believe me, look it up).
Thanks for the correction. (200 mile difference)
His church was amillenialist. (In other words they believe Satan is bound), .....so the reporters politely asked - "What about this guy who was a bishop in your church? How could you not know? How was it you had no idea that he was the 'bind, torture, and kill' serial rapist/killer?" - You can look up his response on google.
- - -As I said, the police caught him because he was using a church printer to taunt them.(They traced it back)
No amillinieallist serial rapist/killers in the pentecostal set,.....kind of gets in the way of the prayer language. - (With all of the binding, torturing, raping, and killing). - Yup, that sort of activity is frowned upon by the Holy Spirit and God in general; - (If you don't believe me, look it up).
Never said he was,but what makes one a false prophet or teacher? Is it just the claim of being the Holy Spirit,Jesus or God or is it more than that? Doesn't Jesus say that there would be BOTH false messiahs and false prophets that would be able to do signs and wonders?
Matthew 24
“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
Matthew 24
“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
Why would I be in a lot of trouble? What I'm doing is saying the scripture is true. Take a look at this from I Corinthians 12
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
I say yes, the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal, that to one is given the word of wisdom, to another prophecy, miracles, tongues, healing.
What do you argue? That these things are not given. That prophecy, miracles, tongues, healing are not given. I agree when scripture says 'let the prophets speak two or three' and 'forbid not to speak with tongues.' Do you argue for or against those verses?
Do you think God will condemn me for blaspheming for agreeing with what the scriptures teach? Who should be more concerned, the one who agrees with the passage, or the one who disagrees with it and says that the Spirit does not give these gifts and accuses all such manifestations of the spirit of being from the flesh or even the devil?
The sad thing is the flimsy excuses used to try to argue away scripture. It seems like the most popular approach on this forum is to take an impossible interpretation of I Corinthians 13, one that would have our knowledge be superior to the apostles. An interpretation that reformers and reformed theologians who actually studied the languages with a certain degree of scholarship reject, an interpretation which, according to your choice of translation, John Calvin called 'stupid' or 'ignorant.' Even many hard-core modern cessationists like John MacArhtur reject the approach to I Corinthians 13.
Then there is trying to argue that these no longer apply because of the doctrine of sufficiency of scripture. Hello???? These teachings of scripture are in the Bible. How can we say the Bible is 'sufficient' if we need to add to it extra-biblical doctrines that part of the Bible aren't true anymore. It's total nonsense.
There is also the Benjamin Warfield approach that the gifts ceased because they were given ONLY through the laying on of hands of the original apostles, which is easily debunked by showing though these these gifts were given at times through the laying on of the apostles hands, they weren't given ONLY by the laying on of hands of the apostles and to assert such is contrary to what the scripture actually says. I haven't seen the Warfield approach here.
What is really strange is how cessationists will disagree with one another over which arguments are valid. Yet they seem to be dead set on reaching the conclusion of gifts ceasing, in spite of the lack of evidence for it. If knowledge really were perfect, why wouldn't cessationists all be of one mind on why certain spiritual gifts aren't for today? Why aren't all Christians?
The
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
I say yes, the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal, that to one is given the word of wisdom, to another prophecy, miracles, tongues, healing.
What do you argue? That these things are not given. That prophecy, miracles, tongues, healing are not given. I agree when scripture says 'let the prophets speak two or three' and 'forbid not to speak with tongues.' Do you argue for or against those verses?
Do you think God will condemn me for blaspheming for agreeing with what the scriptures teach? Who should be more concerned, the one who agrees with the passage, or the one who disagrees with it and says that the Spirit does not give these gifts and accuses all such manifestations of the spirit of being from the flesh or even the devil?
The sad thing is the flimsy excuses used to try to argue away scripture. It seems like the most popular approach on this forum is to take an impossible interpretation of I Corinthians 13, one that would have our knowledge be superior to the apostles. An interpretation that reformers and reformed theologians who actually studied the languages with a certain degree of scholarship reject, an interpretation which, according to your choice of translation, John Calvin called 'stupid' or 'ignorant.' Even many hard-core modern cessationists like John MacArhtur reject the approach to I Corinthians 13.
Then there is trying to argue that these no longer apply because of the doctrine of sufficiency of scripture. Hello???? These teachings of scripture are in the Bible. How can we say the Bible is 'sufficient' if we need to add to it extra-biblical doctrines that part of the Bible aren't true anymore. It's total nonsense.
There is also the Benjamin Warfield approach that the gifts ceased because they were given ONLY through the laying on of hands of the original apostles, which is easily debunked by showing though these these gifts were given at times through the laying on of the apostles hands, they weren't given ONLY by the laying on of hands of the apostles and to assert such is contrary to what the scripture actually says. I haven't seen the Warfield approach here.
What is really strange is how cessationists will disagree with one another over which arguments are valid. Yet they seem to be dead set on reaching the conclusion of gifts ceasing, in spite of the lack of evidence for it. If knowledge really were perfect, why wouldn't cessationists all be of one mind on why certain spiritual gifts aren't for today? Why aren't all Christians?
The
If the man you are speaking of does not contaminate the whole Lutheran movement and prove it bad, what about your own approach to those who believe in spiritual gifts. You talked about a Pentecostal church that started praying to Michael. That's really weird and something Pentecostals would pretty much universally disagree with outside of that church. If it's not fair for someone's impression of Lutheranism to be formed by this fellow, why would it be fair to use the same approach to judge all believers or churches who believe in spiritual gifts?
I know God frowns on it Rick,but you're not quite correct on the serial murderers.
DeVernon LeGrand
[TABLE="width: 80%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]A.K.A.: "The Reverend"[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Classification: Serial killer[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Characteristics: Convicted rapist - Child abuse - [SIZE=1.5]Called himself bishop - Head of the St. John's Pentecostal Church of Our Lord[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Number of victims: 12 +[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Date of murders: 1963 - 1976[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"][SIZE=1.5]Date of arrest: [/SIZE]May 1976[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Date of birth: 1924[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Victims profile: Women (wives and members of his Brooklyn cult of begging nuns)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Method of murder: Shooting - Beating[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Location: New York/New Jersey, USA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Status: Sentenced to 25 years to life in prison, 1977. Died in prison in 2006
A Job Description Contradicted by Killings
By Joseph P. Fried - The New York Times
Sunday, September 1, 2002
[SIZE=1.5]He ran a house of God, he said, but it turned out to be a house of horrors.
In the 1970's, women in black habits resembling those of nuns became a familiar sight in New York City as they solicited alms on the street and in the subway. Actually, they were from St. John's Pentecostal Church of Our Lord, which Devernon LeGrand, who called himself a bishop, presided over in Crown Heights, Brooklyn.
[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
DeVernon LeGrand | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers
UMM Remember Jim Jones
Jonestown Massacre:A Reason to Die
The Man They Called Father
Jim Jones was born in Lyn, Indiana in 1931 during the Great Depression. As his parents struggled to eke out an existence, Jones was free to explore the world around him. At an early age he happened upon a Pentecostal congregation known as the Gospel Tabernacle, made up mainly of people who had moved to the area from Kentucky and Tennessee. The church and its members dwelt on the fringes of the community and were known as "holy-rollers" and "tongues people" by the more conservative community of Lyn.
Peoples Temple leader
Reverend Jim Jones
By his early teens, Jones was no longer interested in the normal activities of the other boys. He was much more interested in the emotional and religious fervour he found at the Gospel Tabernacle. Here he learned about spiritual healing and was soon receiving praise for his preaching. In 1947 at the age of sixteen, Jones was preaching on street corners in both black and white neighbourhoods, sharing the wisdom and knowledge that he believed he possessed and was obliged to share with others. He believed in the brotherhood of man, regardless of social standing or race. His sympathies lay with the poor and the downtrodden
Jonestown Massacre: A 'Reason' to Die — The Man they Called 'Father' — Crime Library on truTV.com
Just wanted you to hear the rest of the story.
Sorry for the derailment Zone
DeVernon LeGrand
[TABLE="width: 80%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]A.K.A.: "The Reverend"[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Classification: Serial killer[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Characteristics: Convicted rapist - Child abuse - [SIZE=1.5]Called himself bishop - Head of the St. John's Pentecostal Church of Our Lord[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Number of victims: 12 +[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Date of murders: 1963 - 1976[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"][SIZE=1.5]Date of arrest: [/SIZE]May 1976[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Date of birth: 1924[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Victims profile: Women (wives and members of his Brooklyn cult of begging nuns)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Method of murder: Shooting - Beating[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Location: New York/New Jersey, USA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Status: Sentenced to 25 years to life in prison, 1977. Died in prison in 2006
A Job Description Contradicted by Killings
By Joseph P. Fried - The New York Times
Sunday, September 1, 2002
[SIZE=1.5]He ran a house of God, he said, but it turned out to be a house of horrors.
In the 1970's, women in black habits resembling those of nuns became a familiar sight in New York City as they solicited alms on the street and in the subway. Actually, they were from St. John's Pentecostal Church of Our Lord, which Devernon LeGrand, who called himself a bishop, presided over in Crown Heights, Brooklyn.
[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
DeVernon LeGrand | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers
UMM Remember Jim Jones
Jonestown Massacre:A Reason to Die
The Man They Called Father
Jim Jones was born in Lyn, Indiana in 1931 during the Great Depression. As his parents struggled to eke out an existence, Jones was free to explore the world around him. At an early age he happened upon a Pentecostal congregation known as the Gospel Tabernacle, made up mainly of people who had moved to the area from Kentucky and Tennessee. The church and its members dwelt on the fringes of the community and were known as "holy-rollers" and "tongues people" by the more conservative community of Lyn.
Peoples Temple leader
Reverend Jim Jones
By his early teens, Jones was no longer interested in the normal activities of the other boys. He was much more interested in the emotional and religious fervour he found at the Gospel Tabernacle. Here he learned about spiritual healing and was soon receiving praise for his preaching. In 1947 at the age of sixteen, Jones was preaching on street corners in both black and white neighbourhoods, sharing the wisdom and knowledge that he believed he possessed and was obliged to share with others. He believed in the brotherhood of man, regardless of social standing or race. His sympathies lay with the poor and the downtrodden
Jonestown Massacre: A 'Reason' to Die — The Man they Called 'Father' — Crime Library on truTV.com
Just wanted you to hear the rest of the story.
Sorry for the derailment Zone
[/quote]
I am not familiar with all the quotes or videos that have been posted about these things. I recall reading comments. I remember another man wrote a book in which he had a conversation with some person who is now dead.
For me personally, I can remember I had a dream about my brother, and I think it was a way for the Lord to tell me about my brother's state and maybe even motivate me to have more compassion for him and pray for him. It could have also been for me to encourage him. I had two dreams in one night. In the dreams, he was doing stuff that symbolized what his life was like, but not things he literally did. He did not literally get beaten up by dark figures until he was barely recognized as a human being, not in real life.
And another thing. I talked to him in these dreams. But his mind and consciousness was not in the dream with me. When I woke up, he didn't remember talking to me in my dream. He was in my dream, but I wasn't really talking to my brother. I was having a dream in which I was talking to my brother, a dream that told me some things about him.
There is a difference between communicating with the dead and having a dream or vision in which you are talking to someone who is currently dead.
I also wonder if any Jews, after the gospels were written, accused Christ based on talking with Moses and Elijah. There is an extra-biblical tradition of Moses being resurrected or assumed up into heaven. Some people think Elijah is still bodily alive in heaven after the chariots caught him up. But he wrote a letter on earth after that incident, so he may have come back to earth and died a natural death. We don't know.
Communicating with the dead is one thing. Sitting among graves? What's wrong with that? I grew up near a graveyard, and we used to play out there. I'm not Jewish and I'm not following Talmudic laws about cleanliness. That's the only objections I can think of to sitting in a graveyard.
As far as anointing at these kinds of graves, that's definitely not something I would endorse or encourage. He may have gotten the idea, though, from the account in the II Kings 13 where a dead man was put into Elisha's tomb and came to life again after touching Elisha's bones.
I don't follow Benny Hinn. Doctrinally, he says weird stuff. I don't know if he tries to communicate with the dead or not. Going to a tomb to get the anointing or something like that is not the same as communicating with the dead. Neither is having a dream about Katherine Khulman, for example.
Does he do signs? Most of the time, he tells people to pray for themselves and then has people come up and testify if they were already healed, rather than laying hands on those who are afflicted.
He is also clear that the Spirit gives spiritual gifts to the church and on the commands of how to exercise such gifts in church. That doesn't stop people from not believing it.
I am not familiar with all the quotes or videos that have been posted about these things. I recall reading comments. I remember another man wrote a book in which he had a conversation with some person who is now dead.
For me personally, I can remember I had a dream about my brother, and I think it was a way for the Lord to tell me about my brother's state and maybe even motivate me to have more compassion for him and pray for him. It could have also been for me to encourage him. I had two dreams in one night. In the dreams, he was doing stuff that symbolized what his life was like, but not things he literally did. He did not literally get beaten up by dark figures until he was barely recognized as a human being, not in real life.
And another thing. I talked to him in these dreams. But his mind and consciousness was not in the dream with me. When I woke up, he didn't remember talking to me in my dream. He was in my dream, but I wasn't really talking to my brother. I was having a dream in which I was talking to my brother, a dream that told me some things about him.
There is a difference between communicating with the dead and having a dream or vision in which you are talking to someone who is currently dead.
I also wonder if any Jews, after the gospels were written, accused Christ based on talking with Moses and Elijah. There is an extra-biblical tradition of Moses being resurrected or assumed up into heaven. Some people think Elijah is still bodily alive in heaven after the chariots caught him up. But he wrote a letter on earth after that incident, so he may have come back to earth and died a natural death. We don't know.
Communicating with the dead is one thing. Sitting among graves? What's wrong with that? I grew up near a graveyard, and we used to play out there. I'm not Jewish and I'm not following Talmudic laws about cleanliness. That's the only objections I can think of to sitting in a graveyard.
As far as anointing at these kinds of graves, that's definitely not something I would endorse or encourage. He may have gotten the idea, though, from the account in the II Kings 13 where a dead man was put into Elisha's tomb and came to life again after touching Elisha's bones.
I don't follow Benny Hinn. Doctrinally, he says weird stuff. I don't know if he tries to communicate with the dead or not. Going to a tomb to get the anointing or something like that is not the same as communicating with the dead. Neither is having a dream about Katherine Khulman, for example.
Does he do signs? Most of the time, he tells people to pray for themselves and then has people come up and testify if they were already healed, rather than laying hands on those who are afflicted.
He is also clear that the Spirit gives spiritual gifts to the church and on the commands of how to exercise such gifts in church. That doesn't stop people from not believing it.
Are you serial?
You are referencing total nutjob leaders of cults.
The B.T.K. killer was not a cult leader, he was a member of an amillenialist Lutheran Church.
- - Dennis Radar was an upstanding member of his denominational church.
- - - No cult leader here. - No cult leader, no excuse.
He stood in the pews next to them and sang "Rock of Ages" while he used the printer in the church to taunt the authorities.
You are referencing total nutjob leaders of cults.
The B.T.K. killer was not a cult leader, he was a member of an amillenialist Lutheran Church.
- - Dennis Radar was an upstanding member of his denominational church.
- - - No cult leader here. - No cult leader, no excuse.
He stood in the pews next to them and sang "Rock of Ages" while he used the printer in the church to taunt the authorities.