Churches

[breno785au]

There's much more to people than just their beliefs you know.

Or shall I just shut myself off from the world and only speak to people with the same world view as me?

I get what your both saying its just that its human nature for people to huddle into groups that share the same view as them, hence why cliques form at schools and gangs form so it is odd that someone who is 100% convinced that God doesn't exist would actively mingle with those who believe the polar opposite, not saying I don't want you here, i think your a valuable asset to the CC community and would hate to see you leave, i think its rather miraculous that your here to be honest, whether you believe that or not lol

 

[RedTent]

There's much more to people than just their beliefs you know.

Or shall I just shut myself off from the world and only speak to people with the same world view as me?

This is spoken like a person who hasn't experienced sharing the love of the Lord with a group of people.

My picture of a truly beautiful church is like the ones history speaks of that were in the first century. Usually they simply met in someone's home instead of a special building, each church had only a few members. Those members had a close bond between them.

 

[Angela53510]

I took a couple of courses in a secular university on the geography of religion, from a prof who was convinced that the architecture of churches from gothic up to the present, represented the importance of what the people believed and how their buildings dominated the landscape.

I argued fervently that a church is a group of believers, not the building. But I did several projects on neo-Gothic including a cathedral in my city. I think that those buildings were an attempt to dominate the cities, and the surrounding towns. They are also buildings which awe the locals because of their pomp and pageantry.

I kind of forgot all about it, until I traveled the length of Utah two winters ago. Every town, big and small had its Mormon tabernacle or temples, with no buildings in the town allowed to be taller. The temples stood out like sore thumbs. It reminded me again that the building does not contain the faith. Any false religion can dominate the landscape but that does not mean it is divinely inspired.

 

[Kerry]

This is spoken like a person who hasn't experienced sharing the love of the Lord with a group of people.

My picture of a truly beautiful church is like the ones history speaks of that were in the first century. Usually they simply met in someone's home instead of a special building, each church had only a few members. Those members had a close bond between them.

Come out from among them and be ye separate. You shall be a strange and peculiar people.

 

[chubbena]

There's much more to people than just their beliefs you know.

Or shall I just shut myself off from the world and only speak to people with the same world view as me?

So I repeat: We are but fools who believe one who does not exist in your eyes.
a. some fools here might try to be friendly with you and look for opportunities to preach you the love of god.
b. a few fools here might tell you straight that you are a sinner who needs repentance for the kingdom of heaven is near.
Beware!

 

[IntoTheVoid]

So I repeat: We are but fools who believe one who does not exist in your eyes.
a. some fools here might try to be friendly with you and look for opportunities to preach you the love of god.
b. a few fools here might tell you straight that you are a sinner who needs repentance for the kingdom of heaven is near.
Beware!

I don't think your fools at all. I totally disagree with you all on most things lol but you certainly aren't fools.

 

[Nick01]

So I had to attend a wedding last weekend and I have to say the old church was incredible. Beautiful stained glass, stunning stone statues and arches... Certainly not a product of awful 'Modern Architecture'.

I've had to visit a lot of churches recently due to weddings, deaths etc and they have all been amazing, apart from a newly built chapel which had zero atmosphere.

Anyway, was there a certain blueprint or style that churches had to adhere to when being built? Any biblical instruction? Why Aren't they built like that anymore?

I think some churches of old denominations (RC, Orth, CofE) might have had general blueprints, and stipulations for things like vestries, sanctuaries and the like, but nothing too specific or broadly enforced. Very few churches would build stuff on any biblical basis, more about functionality.

Anyway, the reason the churches of old are so beautiful is that many of them were run by the state, and they had the money to throw at good architecture, and the prestige to pull talented architects (who were usually religious themselves anyway, and had a personal stake in building a church). Then after states started separating from the churches, independent churches started popping up, so now you can easily run the full gamut of old building to new building to school hall to house church in the same city.

Basically, churches were then what university and tech company campuses are today - sandboxes for creative architects.

Having said that, there is still the odd fancy church being built out there. St Barnabas Anglican here in Sydney is pretty cool - a very modern, but intimate setting built after the old church building burnt down.

 

[p_rehbein]

There's much more to people than just their beliefs you know.

Or shall I just shut myself off from the world and only speak to people with the same world view as me?

That doesn't make sense........you say there's more to people than just their beliefs, then you ask if you should only speak to people who share your beliefs........you have only mentioned peoples beliefs.......not more than that.

 

[p_rehbein]

Well, I can't say if heard that tale before. A couple of corrections though, with all due respect.

I am no way open minded. I'm 100 percent convinced god doesn't exist. Same goes for Allah, Ganesh, Zeus, Vishnu etc. I don't frequent religious forums for religious reasons.. It's just that religious forums are the easiest place to meet a lot of people from different cultures and backgrounds... One of the view good uses of the internet these days.

Secondly I'm not a woman, and thirdly I don't possess a well

It certainly would have been nice IF you had posted this comment in the OP...........have a good whatever.......oh, no, wait, you probably don't believe in either good or evil. How could you..........anyway.........'nuff for me to be through

 

[IntoTheVoid]

It certainly would have been nice IF you had posted this comment in the OP...........have a good whatever.......oh, no, wait, you probably don't believe in either good or evil. How could you..........anyway.........'nuff for me to be through

Considering it's something I've stated numerous time on this forum, I don't find it necessary to start every topic with a disclaimer.

Plus when I mentioned the beliefs, I was answering people who wondered why I came here if I had different beliefs. I merely pointed out there's more to a man than his belief.

The original purpose of this topic was to show my appreciation for the beauty of the buildings I had been in. I never once mentioned anything about belief because It was irrelevant to the topic at hand. Someone else then thought I was on some sort of quest for Jesus.. And made it about beliefs.. As if that's all there is to a person.

 

[RedTent]

My granddaughter lived in various countries in Europe for awhile, where many churches were in magnificent cathedrals. She could not find a spirit filled vibrant church community in any of these churches.

Ken Follett wrote a book about building a cathedral in the middle of the 12th century. It is fiction, but Ken did extensive research of this period, and how the people thought and lived. It tells what these magnificent structures meant to the people, and how these people lived.

It is the most important to us to know all of God principles, to study scripture, but I also think it is very important to know all about how we developed His church. The first 500 years AD is the most important for this established the foundation of how our churches would behave ever after, but learning about the church in this time period is important, too. There is much we can learn about our church roots in this book, but if you can handle the cruelty of that age, it is the most interesting story I have read.

 

[maxwel]

I took a couple of courses in a secular university on the geography of religion, from a prof who was convinced that the architecture of churches from gothic up to the present, represented the importance of what the people believed and how their buildings dominated the landscape.

I argued fervently that a church is a group of believers, not the building. But I did several projects on neo-Gothic including a cathedral in my city. I think that those buildings were an attempt to dominate the cities, and the surrounding towns. They are also buildings which awe the locals because of their pomp and pageantry.

I kind of forgot all about it, until I traveled the length of Utah two winters ago. Every town, big and small had its Mormon tabernacle or temples, with no buildings in the town allowed to be taller. The temples stood out like sore thumbs. It reminded me again that the building does not contain the faith. Any false religion can dominate the landscape but that does not mean it is divinely inspired.

I'll have to agree with all of that, lol.

Although scripture teaches that the Christian "people" are what's important, and not the building... not all people who've built church buildings hold that point of view.

 

[Hizikyah]

The body of Messiah is people not bricks, none the less it is beneficial to have a place to gather. But does anyone have a problem with pagan architecture at the place of worship, because I do, or are we so lukewarm that we accept what our Heavenly Father has forbidden? I am bothered by statues, imagery, and pillars...

 

[Angela53510]

Anyway, the reason the churches of old are so beautiful is that many of them were run by the state, and they had the money to throw at good architecture, and the prestige to pull talented architects (who were usually religious themselves anyway, and had a personal stake in building a church). Then after states started separating from the churches, independent churches started popping up, so now you can easily run the full gamut of old building to new building to school hall to house church in the same city.

Basically, churches were then what university and tech company campuses are today - sandboxes for creative architects.
.

Actually, the Roman Catholic cathedrals were paid for and built by the church, in Europe in the 9th to 14th centuries, when the state was really about the king or leader of the country. I am not sure about Anglican, or Church of England, because the Queen is the head of the church. So perhaps in the in the early history of that church, it was paid for by the state.

In fact, in England and France the churches were pillaged after revolutions and monarch changes. King Henry the VIII disbanded Catholic churches and melted down the gold items, basically stealing from them anything of value. Then Bloody Mary (his daughter) did the same to the Protestant churches, which were reestablished by Elizabeth I. The same goes for killing Charles I, the Puritans tried to rip down the Protestants and the Catholics churches, under Cromwell, then they were reestablished under James II. (Not to be confused with James 1, of KJV fame!) And of course, Enlightenment France after their incredibly bloody revolution tore down many churches, except the ancient cathedrals, which are tourist attractions.


It may be in Quebec that the government gave help in the initial years of that province, before it was conquered by the English in 1759. Of course, you would be more knowledgeable about Australia, but in Canada, no churches were paid for by the state, and I would imagine the US government did not pay for any churches either, with its vehement separation of church and state.

Really, the state barely figures into anything about most of the older cathedrals, which are incredibly beautiful, by the way. As far as smaller churches, congregations paid for many of them, or the denomination!

PS. I am always glad to see you posting, IntotheVoid. You are respectful of our beliefs, and for me, I pray for you and the other atheists who are contributing members of this forum. Of course, I pray for God to reveal himself to you so that you would realize the error of your ways, and God would save you!

 

[Delija]

U are speaking about 9th to 14th century and only Western Churches buildings but u have no idea about desert Churches in Egypt older then 5th century,Hagia Sophia great Holy Wisdom Church in Constantinople present Instambul,Ethiopian Churches,Churches in Syria,Church of Holy Grave in Jerusalem.
Google them for a change.

 

[Nancyer]

it is not the beauty of the building the most important, because who is the church? it is YOU and ur SISTERS n BROTHERS, that make the church, so u all have to be clean and thats the beauty God loves

Amen! We say this every week, that WE are the church. A nice building is nice, and may bring people in at first, but that's not what will keep em coming back.

 

[overcomer2]

I don't think your fools at all. I totally disagree with you all on most things lol but you certainly aren't fools.

But we are fools:
1 Corinthians 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

 

[IntoTheVoid]

But we are fools:
1 Corinthians 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

Well, fortunately that's not how I think

 

[Simona25]

So I had to attend a wedding last weekend and I have to say the old church was incredible. Beautiful stained glass, stunning stone statues and arches... Certainly not a product of awful 'Modern Architecture'.

I've had to visit a lot of churches recently due to weddings, deaths etc and they have all been amazing, apart from a newly built chapel which had zero atmosphere.

Anyway, was there a certain blueprint or style that churches had to adhere to when being built? Any biblical instruction? Why Aren't they built like that anymore?

I believe the neoprotestants no longer built a traditional church, but a building dedicated to meetings (in the name of Jesus Christ) and colective whorship because they do not believe that a space can be sacred in itself, but they believe that it is rather the community of christians that is saint.

In the Old Testament, the first altars were built in places where epiphanies have been registered: like, for example, Abraham builts an altar near the oak of Mamvri, because it is in that place that God (The Saint Trinity) revealed Himself under the image of three young angels. Also, Jacob, after witnessing the sky opening itself and the angels climbing and descending on a ladder, built also an altar and aknowledged with wonder and fear that the place where he was, was a sacred place (and he called it Bethel, which means the house of God). So, we can see that actually, the space is not neutral; it can have a sacred dimension.

Moses received very detailed instructions from God on how to built the Holy Tabernacle (you can read them in the book of Exodus from ch. 25 until ch. 40). The Holy Tabernacle clearly had a divine pattern: it was God Himself the architect. Usually, in religion, everything has a divine model. For example the rituals are nothing but imitations (repetitions) of archetipal (divine) gestures.

The Holy Tabernacle and the Temple are prefigurations of the christian church. So, it is only with the church founded by Jesus Christ (God) that the church on earth is fully perfected. I say the church on earth, because this church is also an anticipation of the Eschaton (the transfiguration of the creation, the new order that Jesus Christ will establish when He will come for the second time).

In the NT, the church appears under the names of house of God, body of Jesus Christ, bride of Jesus Christ and pillar and ground of the truth. The traditional church has a lot of common elements with the Temple as house of God. What is different is that the community (which represent the body and bride of Christ) no longer have to bring sacrifices to the new church (like they used to in the temple), but it is Jesus Christ that is mysteriously sacrificing Himself (whithout the sheding of blood) for the christians.

So, the traditional church has referential relation with the temple (and should have, in my opinion), but it is perfected and brought to a whole new meaning by Jesus Christ.