Continuationism vs cessastionism?
- Thread starter Muskokaman
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Yes. As was yours that I responded to.
Grossly and ridiculously abused and/or manufactured. Almost universally a modern fleshly exhibition.
Actually, if there is even one demonstration of one gift functioning scripturally on one occasion by/in/through one believer, then one would need to subscribe to some kind of continuationism.
Other than NAR-nonsense on one extreme and those who deny the modern work of the HS on the other extreme, rhetoric from either side is much less valuable than dealing directly with the text.
The burden of proof is wholly upon Cessationists; and it's essentially about one passage and its immediate and overall context.
Grossly and ridiculously abused and/or manufactured. Almost universally a modern fleshly exhibition.
Actually, if there is even one demonstration of one gift functioning scripturally on one occasion by/in/through one believer, then one would need to subscribe to some kind of continuationism.
Other than NAR-nonsense on one extreme and those who deny the modern work of the HS on the other extreme, rhetoric from either side is much less valuable than dealing directly with the text.
The burden of proof is wholly upon Cessationists; and it's essentially about one passage and its immediate and overall context.
I wholly agree. Teleios is neither the finished canon nor the Second Advent. That's another false dichotomy that has plagued the body for centuries. Maybe there's something else. I'd hope everyone was willing to search beyond traditional narrow systems of beliefs to find the substantial truth in the text.
There's a much more significant context. I don't expect you, Strange, or other cessationists to concede. I would be remiss if I simply remained silent, though.
There's a much more significant context. I don't expect you, Strange, or other cessationists to concede. I would be remiss if I simply remained silent, though.
C
From the Strong's...
5046. teleios
having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Short Definition: perfect, full-grown
Definition: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.
Cognate: 5046 téleios (an adjective, derived from 5056 /télos, "consummated goal") – mature (consummated) from going through the necessary stages to reach the end-goal, i.e. developed into a consummating completion by fulfilling the necessary process (spiritual journey). See 5056 (telos).
[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]
Word Origin
from telos
Definition
having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
NASB Word Usage
complete (2), mature (4), more perfect (1), perfect (12).
5046. teleios
having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Short Definition: perfect, full-grown
Definition: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.
Cognate: 5046 téleios (an adjective, derived from 5056 /télos, "consummated goal") – mature (consummated) from going through the necessary stages to reach the end-goal, i.e. developed into a consummating completion by fulfilling the necessary process (spiritual journey). See 5056 (telos).
[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]
Word Origin
from telos
Definition
having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
NASB Word Usage
complete (2), mature (4), more perfect (1), perfect (12).
C
By defining the perfect / telios, I don't see how it is interpreted to mean knowledge when obviously means maturity, fulness, completion.
I personally believe that it's referring to the Great Commission and the church.
I will provide verses later as to why I think this. I've got a couple of errands to run.
I personally believe that it's referring to the Great Commission and the church.
I will provide verses later as to why I think this. I've got a couple of errands to run.
I just want to point out a few things in debates...
Does it glorify G-d or does it glorify the stupidity that is our intelligence?
Do we have to have all the answers? Does it help? Not always, not even Solomon who was the wisest man in the world had much help with wisdom. G-d is the key, I don't understand how and I accept that but is the key to it. If were to find wisdom or knowledge then it should be within his will. It's not by power, or by the sword but by his Spirt. Wisdom or knowledge I would put as a form of power.
G-d Bless and pray for his will
Does it glorify G-d or does it glorify the stupidity that is our intelligence?
Do we have to have all the answers? Does it help? Not always, not even Solomon who was the wisest man in the world had much help with wisdom. G-d is the key, I don't understand how and I accept that but is the key to it. If were to find wisdom or knowledge then it should be within his will. It's not by power, or by the sword but by his Spirt. Wisdom or knowledge I would put as a form of power.
G-d Bless and pray for his will
and?
the end goal of the apostolic era gifts and offices was a completed canon (the fullest expression of God's Plan and Will, given throuhgout time to prophets, and apostles, and scribes, and Jesus Christ)
that canon came to us one stage at a time. and now functions at full strength and capacity (when used correctly via the Holy Spirit).
the alternative to this is that God's completeld word IS NOT THOSE THINGS.
that came to us one stage at a time
the end goal of the apostolic era gifts and offices was a completed canon (the fullest expression of God's Plan and Will, given throuhgout time to prophets, and apostles, and scribes, and Jesus Christ)
that canon came to us one stage at a time. and now functions at full strength and capacity (when used correctly via the Holy Spirit).
the alternative to this is that God's completeld word IS NOT THOSE THINGS.
that came to us one stage at a time
i didn't say telelios meant knowledge/understanding.
i said it was used IN THE CONTEXT OF A LETTER THAT WAS CONCERNING KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING - Corinthians.
Paul sent a corrective letter to them concerning what were for the most part REVELATORY GIFTS.the means through which God was revealing new information. new knowledge. His Plan, the full knowledge of what He has revealed about Himself DIDN'T EXIST yet. UNTIL JOHN PUT DOWN HIS PEN.
the Bible is the COMPLETE, MATURE, FULL revelation of GOD, written down - His ordained method of communicating to man.
the gifts were partial, the knowledge of God (that He has chosen to give us) is COMPLETE in scripture.
ANYONE ATTAMEPTING TO HAVE GOD REVERT TO PARTIAL REVELATORY GIFTS FORFEITS SOLA SCRIPTURA
i said it was used IN THE CONTEXT OF A LETTER THAT WAS CONCERNING KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING - Corinthians.
Paul sent a corrective letter to them concerning what were for the most part REVELATORY GIFTS.the means through which God was revealing new information. new knowledge. His Plan, the full knowledge of what He has revealed about Himself DIDN'T EXIST yet. UNTIL JOHN PUT DOWN HIS PEN.
the Bible is the COMPLETE, MATURE, FULL revelation of GOD, written down - His ordained method of communicating to man.
the gifts were partial, the knowledge of God (that He has chosen to give us) is COMPLETE in scripture.
ANYONE ATTAMEPTING TO HAVE GOD REVERT TO PARTIAL REVELATORY GIFTS FORFEITS SOLA SCRIPTURA
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Other than tongues, I've seen a number of the gifts function scripturally. One can denounce the ridiculous NAR silliness and not have to be a cessationist.
Personal observation and/or participation isn't at issue, though we've both referred to it. It's about exegeting the text. Inference and eisegesis aren't valid exegesis, from either perspective.
Having personally seen blind eyes opened, etc., my experience and observation certainly coincide with my personal in-depth exegesis.
I was a Cessationist. I'm now a simple Continuationist, and reject teleios as referring to closed canon or second advent. The truth lies beyond either.
Personal observation and/or participation isn't at issue, though we've both referred to it. It's about exegeting the text. Inference and eisegesis aren't valid exegesis, from either perspective.
Having personally seen blind eyes opened, etc., my experience and observation certainly coincide with my personal in-depth exegesis.
I was a Cessationist. I'm now a simple Continuationist, and reject teleios as referring to closed canon or second advent. The truth lies beyond either.