Could any of you please explain God's sovereign will vis-a-vis man's free will

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sanglina

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
857
4
0
#1
First of all, I am a devout bible believing Christian. I have always believed in the sovereignty of God and that includes His Sovereign will. However, I also believed that we are given free will by God but when I thought deeper about God's sovereign will vis-a-vis man's free will, applying it in everyday spectrum of life, the line gets blur and I am unable to draw the line as to where one begins and ends. Not that it affects my faith in Christ. I just wanted to have a clear and better understanding of the two.

I have brought up the issue in my local church bible study as well as in ladies fellowship and though some of them have tried to explain using the circle chart, it still does not seem to clear the existing blur line between the two.

Therefore, if any of you would be so kind as to please help me in understanding God's sovereign will vis-a-vis man's free will, I would really appreciate it. Thanking you all in anticipation :)
 
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K

kenisyes

Guest
#3
Part of God's sovereign plan is to give you the right to say no. He wants to be able to love you anyway.

In everyday life, God has created a world with infinitely more blessings than we could ever use or imagine. You are free to select those which you will, and to ignore the rest. Because God's will is for so much blessings and so much love, His plan always works out. (There's always another way He can bless you, even if I say no when He asks me to do something to bless you.)

So the bottom line is all you need to do is say yes to God for as much as you can see, and even a mistaken no won't hurt anything. But if you really want to sin, you can keep saying no until you die, and then there are no more blessings He can give you.
 

Dude653

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2011
12,347
1,045
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#4
I mentioned this in another thread, but the no free will theory is nonsense. For some reason, people seem to think that giving us free will somehow lessens the sovereignty of God. We can always choose to disobey and face the consequences. God wants willing servants, not slaves, Forcing us to serve is not the character of a loving God. If you don't wanna serve God, he will move you out of the way and find someone who will.
 
S

Saint-John

Guest
#5
As said before God is a dictator..ie 10 Commandments not 10 suggestions, (old test)..new command eg Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

you can follow his will, which Jesus said narrow is the gate and straight the way and few there be that find it (all want there own brand of so called Christianity) or not..do your own thing..

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

the line becomes clear...his or not...mark 16 v15 to end...
 
Jan 26, 2009
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#6
With out his will we cant even breathe,with out his will our heart wont beat,if God had regenerated us we will do will,not tearfully but cheerfully,if we rebel wel we havw not known him.m not talking perfection hea but Godwhos perfect will work in us so that he alone will b glorified,if thats not the case we might hear this word one day depart from me,i never knew you.am not trying to be hard here,what I am saying is that if we r really his,he will be glorified thru us by him from n in our weakness.our freedom is in him not the way we see freedom n define it in western context :).m not hea for debates or argument
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#7
With out his will we cant even breathe,with out his will our heart wont beat,if God had regenerated us we will do will,not tearfully but cheerfully,if we rebel wel we havw not known him.m not talking perfection hea but Godwhos perfect will work in us so that he alone will b glorified,if thats not the case we might hear this word one day depart from me,i never knew you.am not trying to be hard here,what I am saying is that if we r really his,he will be glorified thru us by him from n in our weakness.our freedom is in him not the way we see freedom n define it in western context :).m not hea for debates or argument
no just to take a poke at us westernies:rolleyes:
 
O

onoma

Guest
#8
GOD'S WILL. Gen. 2:16,17 And the LORD GOD COMMANDED the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest FREELY eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

MAN'S WILL. Gen. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did it.
 
Sep 7, 2012
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#9
I follow the open Theology explained in Open theism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Both the Arminian and the Calvinistic theology put God into boxes which fail to allow God any freedom and lead to tautologies. Anytime a human tells another human that God must do this or that is lying,they dont really know but are repeating dogmatic positions repeated endlessly without doing much thinking.

Open theology is a relatively new idea but it offers a solution to the ages old Calvin vs Arminus argument that never will be solved or come to an end.

Open theists maintain that some of the classical attributes of God are contradictory and unintelligible. The five main classical attributes are as follows:

  • Immutability: God cannot change in any way. This does not mean that God cannot speak in time, but as Augustine says in Confessions, that when He does so, the Word is He Himself.[5]
  • Impassibility: God is not the object of actions, but the subject.[6] ("Impassable" is from the Latin patior: suffer, undergo, endure.) Thus we cannot reach up to God without Him first coming down to us (cf. Romans 10:6), and any real interaction we have with God must be the result of God's condescension to us through the Incarnation and Pentecost. Neither impassibility nor immutability should be taken to imply we cannot actually interact with God. Classical Theist Blaise Pascal even says God has established prayer "To communicate to His creatures the dignity of causality."[7] The Definition of Chalcedon established the orthodox doctrine that Mary is the mother of God. The Passion is called the "passion" to underscore the fact that here, the impassible One suffers [Latin: passus] on the Cross. And Alexander bishop of Alexandria says of the Crucifixion "the impassable suffers and does not avenge its own injury."[8] (in Greek, the same root is used for "suffer" and "impassible" so perhaps a more accurate (though more wordy) translation would be "the one who does not suffer suffers and does not avenge his own injury.").
  • Omnipotence: God has all power, which includes complete sovereignty over all things. Thus God's sovereign will that we be free and that our will be effective is necessarily realized; and we are free and our will is effective.
  • Omnipresence: God is present everywhere, or more precisely, all things find their location in God;[9] or alternatively God transcends space and time.
  • Omniscience: God has all knowledge, including of all past, present, and future events.
Contradictions in the traditional attributes are pointed out by open theists and atheists alike. Atheist author and educator George H. Smith writes in his book Atheism: the Case Against God that if God is omniscient, meaning God knows the future, God cannot be omnipotent, meaning God can do anything, because: "If God knew the future with infallible certainty, he cannot change it – in which case he cannot be omnipotent. If God can change the future, however, he cannot have infallible knowledge of it."[10] Likewise, if God is omnipresent, God cannot be omnipotent because God could not limit his own location. Open theists would again use the same argument here that changing his location would conflict with his immutability. A classical theist would respond to such an argument by pointing out that their position is that God is the author of the future, and thus there is no more contradiction in saying God knows the future and is sovereign over it than in saying "Shakespeare was free to make Romeo and Juliet as he would, but having made it He is not free to make it different from how he had." The classical theist would also postulate that since God is omniscient, God would also know every possible future.
Open theism also answers the question of how God can be blameless and omnipotent even though evil exists in the world. H. Roy Elseth gives an example of a parent that knows with certainty that his child would go out and murder someone if he was given a gun. Elseth argues that if the parent did give the gun to the child then the parent would be responsible for that crime.[11] However, if God was unsure about the outcome then God would not be culpable for that act; only the one who committed the act would be guilty. This position is, however, dubious, as a parent who knows his child was probable, or likely, or even possibly going to shoot someone would be culpable; and God knew that it was likely that man would sin, and thus God is still culpable. An orthodox Christian might, on the contrary, seek to ground a Theodicy in the Resurrection, both of Christ and the general Resurrection to come,[12] though this is not the traditional answer to evil.

Another claim made by open theists is that the traditional definition of omniscience is incompatible with a real love relationship with God. It is claimed that for someone to have a real love relationship, it must be give and take. Each member opens themselves up and becomes vulnerable. They point out that God, throughout the Bible, is shown as grieving over Israel's rebellion. They claim that if the future was known with absolute certainty, then Israel could not have freely chosen to rebel and God could not be genuinely grieving, knowing that this was the only possibility. Israel's actions would have been set in stone millennia before they were ever born. They would have been compelled by fate or providence to take those actions. This would be the same as a relationship between a programmer and computer. Open theists, such as John Sanders, claim that the only way a relationship can be real is if there is freedom to choose.

It should be noted that many open theists believe that God's infinite intelligence affords him an infinite understanding of all probabilities in the universe. Thus, to an unknown degree, God is able to "know the future" with certainty due to his understanding of the probabilities at hand. However, other open theists reply that this perspective simply reinforces the intellectual image of God which open theism is working to revise. God's knowledge that "exceeds human wisdom" should not be thought of in terms of Greek philosophical categories. Biblically speaking, this inscrutability is a confession: either of human limitation and incompleteness or else of God's care that goes beyond our horizon of comprehension.

From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Theology
 
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Jan 18, 2011
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#10
First of all, I am a devout bible believing Christian. I have always believed in the sovereignty of God and that includes His Sovereign will. However, I also believed that we are given free will by God but when I thought deeper about God's sovereign will vis-a-vis man's free will, applying it in everyday spectrum of life, the line gets blur and I am unable to draw the line as to where one begins and ends. Not that it affects my faith in Christ. I just wanted to have a clear and better understanding of the two.

I have brought up the issue in my local church bible study as well as in ladies fellowship and though some of them have tried to explain using the circle chart, it still does not seem to clear the existing blur line between the two.

Therefore, if any of you would be so kind as to please help me in understanding God's sovereign will vis-a-vis man's free will, I would really appreciate it. Thanking you all in anticipation :)
The Bible says that all things are of God (see Romans 11:36).

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36)

If all things are of God, as the Bible says, then for everything that has ever happened, God caused it to happen. (And the same of course applies to all things which are happening now or will happen in the future).

Therefore, if, by "free will," you mean the ability to make choices independent of God causing those choices, then belief in this concept would be in direct conflict with what the Bible teaches here, since it tells us that all choices are "of God."
 
C

chesser

Guest
#11
The Bible says that all things are of God (see Romans 11:36).

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36)

If all things are of God, as the Bible says, then for everything that has ever happened, God caused it to happen. (And the same of course applies to all things which are happening now or will happen in the future).

Therefore, if, by "free will," you mean the ability to make choices independent of God causing those choices, then belief in this concept would be in direct conflict with what the Bible teaches here, since it tells us that all choices are "of God."
Acts7:51 shows people resisting the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 7:37 says that if a man who has control over his own will and decides not to marry, he is doing the right thing, also, the bible states that it is gods will for all to be saved, so unless you are a universalist, god does allow free will.
 
Jan 18, 2011
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#12
Acts7:51 shows people resisting the Holy Spirit,
51 "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. (Acts 7:51)

They resisted the Holy Spirit because God caused them to resist the Holy Spirit. They didn't do anything that God wasn't causing to happen in the first place (Romans 11:36).

1 Corinthians 7:37 says that if a man who has control over his own will and decides not to marry, he is doing the right thing,
37 Nevertheless he who stands steadfast in his heart, having no necessity, but has power over his own will, and has so determined in his heart that he will keep his virgin, does well. (1 Corinthians 7:37)

Just because a person has power over his own will does not mean that God does not also have power over his will. It does not say that only he has power over his own will. God has power over everyone's will, since every choice they make is "of [Him]" (Romans 11:36).

also, the bible states that it is gods will for all to be saved, so unless you are a universalist, god does allow free will.
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)

God does indeed desire all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. However, the reason not all men are saved is not because they make a choice not to be saved which God does not cause (since, according to Romans 11:36, He causes all choices). The reason not all men are saved is because God does not will all men to be saved. He desires them to be saved, but He also desires them not to be saved. Clearly, His desire for them not to be saved outweighs His desire for them to be saved, and He therefore wills them not to be saved.
 
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Feb 17, 2010
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#13
Sanglina, the words FREE WILL is actually not the right words, if you say FREE CHOICE it is a better understandible concept. You see there are only TWO WILLS on earth.... God's and Satan's, and we have a choice to do one or the other every second of the day.

When you look at it this way, it is clear.... Every thought in your head will be influenced by two wills... that of God, and that of Satan. You have to decide on the thought which way are you going to go at the choice on hand. You can either chose to do what Satan would like, or you can do what God would want you to do.

Let us make an example... You are a ten yearold person and you stand in a cafe with a sweet in your hand. Then a thought comes up in your head. if I put this sweet in my pocket the cafe-owner would not notice, and I can take tis sweet without paying. Then the second thought comes up. NOPE that is wrong and just put the sweet back and move on. You see you only have two choices, and you cannot do both! But it is clear, the one will be a nervous deed, and the conciquences can be destructive. and the other has no consiquences of a negative manner.

In any WISE person the choice is clearly to put the sweet back. And this is how easy it is. The line CANNOT be blurred, and if there is ANY doubt, think.... WHAT WOULD JESUS DO IN THIS SITUATION...
 
L

LawofLove

Guest
#14
First of all, I am a devout bible believing Christian. I have always believed in the sovereignty of God and that includes His Sovereign will. However, I also believed that we are given free will by God but when I thought deeper about God's sovereign will vis-a-vis man's free will, applying it in everyday spectrum of life, the line gets blur and I am unable to draw the line as to where one begins and ends. Not that it affects my faith in Christ. I just wanted to have a clear and better understanding of the two.

I have brought up the issue in my local church bible study as well as in ladies fellowship and though some of them have tried to explain using the circle chart, it still does not seem to clear the existing blur line between the two.

Therefore, if any of you would be so kind as to please help me in understanding God's sovereign will vis-a-vis man's free will, I would really appreciate it. Thanking you all in anticipation :)
Rom_12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
 

sanglina

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
857
4
0
#15
Thank you all for sharing your thoughts on it. As I have stated earlier, the primary reason for posting this is mainly for better understanding of the concept in a broad sense and not specifically concern with my personal relationship with Christ.

<<When you look at it this way, it is clear.... Every thought in your head will be influenced by two wills... that of God, and that of Satan. You have to decide on the thought which way are you going to go at the choice on hand. You can either chose to do what Satan would like, or you can do what God would want you to do.>>

Sir, your explanation in a way makes more sense and is enlightening. However, I believed that even our free choice can not supercede God's sovereign plan when it collides with it. But then again, I would not think that God interferes in every choice that we made such as the decision to commit suicide, steal, rape, murder, abortion, divorce, etc (in short, sin) or even in everyday life's decision we made like which clothes to wear, foods to eat, company to keep, gossip, blah, blah, blah...etc. Not that God cannot intervene in such matters per se, He can if He chooses to do so after all God is Sovereign. But the examples in the bible where man choose to disobey Him (Adam and Eve, Jonah, Moses breaking the tablet of commandments, Cain killing his brother, etc) makes me to believe that God is not an imposing or tyrant God that would force His way on us to love and obey Him. The problem is, how do we discern which is God's sovereign will and which is our choice.

Or are we to attribute every sin as our own choice and every good thing as God's sovereign will? Supposing if that is the case, then why would man be held accountable for every sin that he/she is not responsible for it as he does not have any choice in it? But I dont think that is the case because why would we need God's redemptive plan if we dont have any choice or why would the gospel talked about "..whoever believes in Him should not perish.." , "God is a just God", so on and so forth? This is where I find the line getting blurred.



PS: I love reading all your comments, please do keep it coming.
 
R

rauleetoe

Guest
#16
I mentioned this in another thread, but the no free will theory is nonsense. For some reason, people seem to think that giving us free will somehow lessens the sovereignty of God. We can always choose to disobey and face the consequences. God wants willing servants, not slaves, Forcing us to serve is not the character of a loving God. If you don't wanna serve God, he will move you out of the way and find someone who will.
Amen..sadly some will hold onto their pet theology..point to some of their scripture references to back up their claim, and twist others, case in point..romans 9 starts at verse one folks..not in the middle of the chapter(a flawed technique calvinists must resort to)..and some will just go on and on with wording and philosophical word fights..almost like a jehovahs witness must do..to back their claim up, or to 'over intellectualize you' and sadly others will seek to silence you by accusing you of having the nerve to 'challenge God' I have heard this mainly from reform calvinists and from those who adhere to the charismatic identity(not that a charismatic cannot be saved)but they hold onto it too tightly..almost as if to say Jesus himself was charismatic.

We do have a free will..ive pointed scriptures out, as others have..to show this..its all in the bible, in the new and old testament..about what is required of us, by God..to listen to his voice, to choose life(deuteronomy), to choose God or Baal(joshua), yet..some will hold onto their pet theologies..and not hear what you have to say..just gotta brush the dust off your feet, share what you can..and move onto the next person..
 
Jan 18, 2011
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#17
Amen..sadly some will hold onto their pet theology..point to some of their scripture references to back up their claim, and twist others, case in point..romans 9 starts at verse one folks..not in the middle of the chapter(a flawed technique calvinists must resort to)..
Fortunately, the verse was used entirely in context. Often, when someone doesn't like what the scipture teaches, they will claim that it is being used out of context, and direct attention toward "verse one," without actually giving any kind of evidence or demonstration whatsoever of why the verse is supposedly "out of context." This "point the finger" technique is of course transparent and doesn't fool anyone who is actually paying attention.

Of course, there are two additional problems with this sort of accusation, as well. First, both the verse numbering and the chapter divisions are artificial, added hundreds or thousands of years later by men, and are not actually part of God's word in any way, shape, or form. This is common knowledge. Second, even if the chapters were part of the text of God's word (which they're not), context is determined by actual textual content, not chapter divisions.

and some will just go on and on with wording and philosophical word fights..almost like a jehovahs witness must do..to back their claim up, or to 'over intellectualize you' and sadly others will seek to silence you by accusing you of having the nerve to 'challenge God' I have heard this mainly from reform calvinists and from those who adhere to the charismatic identity(not that a charismatic cannot be saved)but they hold onto it too tightly..almost as if to say Jesus himself was charismatic.

We do have a free will..ive pointed scriptures out, as others have..to show this..its all in the bible, in the new and old testament..about what is required of us, by God..to listen to his voice, to choose life(deuteronomy), to choose God or Baal(joshua),
Read it again.

15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." (Joshua 24:15)

As you can see, the choice is between serving "the gods which [their] fathers served that were on the other side of the River," and "the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell." In other words, Joshua is telling them to choose between two sets of false gods, not, as you say, between "God or Baal." (Note that Baal isn't actually even mentioned at all).

yet..some will hold onto their pet theologies..and not hear what you have to say..just gotta brush the dust off your feet, share what you can..and move onto the next person..
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#18
Amen..sadly some will hold onto their pet theology..point to some of their scripture references to back up their claim, and twist others, case in point..romans 9 starts at verse one folks..not in the middle of the chapter(a flawed technique calvinists must resort to)..and some will just go on and on with wording and philosophical word fights..almost like a jehovahs witness must do..to back their claim up, or to 'over intellectualize you' and sadly others will seek to silence you by accusing you of having the nerve to 'challenge God' I have heard this mainly from reform calvinists and from those who adhere to the charismatic identity(not that a charismatic cannot be saved)but they hold onto it too tightly..almost as if to say Jesus himself was charismatic.

We do have a free will..ive pointed scriptures out, as others have..to show this..its all in the bible, in the new and old testament..about what is required of us, by God..to listen to his voice, to choose life(deuteronomy), to choose God or Baal(joshua), yet..some will hold onto their pet theologies..and not hear what you have to say..just gotta brush the dust off your feet, share what you can..and move onto the next person..
There are preterists and ultra-preterists...theres not much difference
but one is orthodox and the others are heritics.

There are reformed calvinists and there are extreme calvinists, the same applys
So while your on your crusade keep in mind we dont need any friendly fire.

I think freewill apostles are as nutty or worst than a extreme calvinists and
they wouldnt last 5 minutes in a philosophical debate. And they run around with
a broad brush that sweeps truths and good doctrine away on their way through.

The freewill debate really shouldnt be a place to divide. If the topic has reasons
that matters and are important for our duties and our faith...then we need to
hammer it out. If not why bother? If so..throwing down a thread and following up
with posts that are no more than attitude and emotion is not going to to produce
anything real.
 

Dude653

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2011
12,347
1,045
113
#19
If there is no free will and if everyone is already predestined to either heaven or hell then nothing we do here on this earth is any consequence. Evangelism would be futile, preaching on obedience would be pointless because if there is no free will then we are not accountable for our actions. This theology is disrespectful to God because it makes God look like a egomaniacal tyrant. This is not the God I serve. If there were no free will, then our entire existance on this earth would be utterly pointless. We would be here only to amuse God, like a kid watching an an ant farm. I am not an ant. I am a cherished creation. I serve a kind and a loving God, not the slave driving god that the no free will theology represents.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#20
think about this:

Do Gods Angels have free will?
Good Angels
Fallen Angels

Does God have free will?
can He sin?

Now do men have free will?


Ok then did you think at all that there might be degrees of free will?
Or limitations?

since our will comes from our nature as you have probably guessed that limits our desire
which is how we make our choices. then mans will isnt 100% free is it? We can only choose
according to our nature. Noone ever chooses what they hate.

If that sounds rational then maybe our will isnt free after all except within the limits
we have been caused to have. By whatever causes weve been through according to
our capacity. And a variety of other variables that have made limitations.

A few past church leaders refered this to the bondage of the will. In that they were
talking about our dire need for God to intervene..and not leave us to this very limited
freedom we have. If God is going to want us to choose, then He will have to draw us
first and do something to widen our choice bandwidth. Which He does.

I think the term freewill is a incorrect title to this and misleading and untrue.