Creation
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G
My brother and I have this debate all of the time. I see it as a tool for debate. If the first part of the bible is an allegory, or it isn't factual, then there could be other parts of the scriptures that also are not factual, i.e. Jesus is the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. So, for that reason alone I would declare the Word of God completely factual and completely true. Now, because it was written down from oral traditions, and it was meant to be understood by shepherds and farmers, it may have been simplified, but that is my humanly perspective. My faith in God as an all powerful being is such that I believe that every single word was placed in it's exact position because that is how God wanted it to read for His divine purposes. Does it change the Salvation of Jesus Christ either way, no, but it does make for some fun debate.
S
The debate is whether or not God said what he meant and meant what he said. The evolutionary model is a way of denying the existence of God.
Jesus however, lent his endorsement to not only the creation account but also to the Noah's flood along with the account of Jonah.
These are common points of attack against the scriptures. If Jesus knew these were just made up stories, how credible is he?
How can Jesus be the 2nd Adam if there was not first. How can sin and redemption have come about without the fall? How can death have come into the world without sin?
Jesus however, lent his endorsement to not only the creation account but also to the Noah's flood along with the account of Jonah.
These are common points of attack against the scriptures. If Jesus knew these were just made up stories, how credible is he?
How can Jesus be the 2nd Adam if there was not first. How can sin and redemption have come about without the fall? How can death have come into the world without sin?
Its a matter of believing what God says or some person who doesn't even believe in God. Theres plenty of Christian sceince people with big titles who can tell how the bibles way is so.
Things like Darwins claims that men are from monkeys because he found a tooth 2 blocks away from his house and claimed it was a cave man tooth. It was a pig tooth. Or the caveman pictures were actually a spider monkey head all blown up. Or pictures of cavemen and it was just just some made up picture.
Don't stay in the lies of the devil and foolish men.
Things like Darwins claims that men are from monkeys because he found a tooth 2 blocks away from his house and claimed it was a cave man tooth. It was a pig tooth. Or the caveman pictures were actually a spider monkey head all blown up. Or pictures of cavemen and it was just just some made up picture.
Don't stay in the lies of the devil and foolish men.
K
The problem came strictly from both side trying to aim at the other.
Before science religion was the way of life and people were satisfied with the answers it held, scientists who worked with evolution and held a more atheistic approach to life found a way for things to exist the way they do without gods direct hand, for them there was a new thing to believe in.
The problem really came when both viewed the other as direct threats, the religious side is a little more guilty for the extreme angle on this but fundamentalists existed and still do exist for both sides. The christian sense says evolution doesn't exist and things happened EXACTLY like they did in the bible, remember they have lived their whole lives with this belief of it being EXACTLY word for word.
The science community kind of tore the book of genesis apart after that, and that is directly where you get the debates of "why weren't dinosaurs mentioned in the bible" and "Things couldn't have happened exactly like they did in genesis" then there's one of my favorites "the bible can't account for evolution" and the topping on the cake?
"If god created the universe who created god?"
In truth they are all the same question, "Science is based on what we see and learn to be true, why isn't the bible as modern and directly accurate" and the truth is 2000 years ago you try explaining to farmers and commoners about the intricacies of quantum physics and genetic alteration, it's not easy doing it today and it would have been a nightmare back then.
I hope it's answered some of your questions about the debate side of things, I actually found my way to god through science so I cannot hate the practice, reality is science is just the method we employ to study and learn the world we exist in. The answers we find through it will never answer the all important one. Why?
Christians already know the why, the how is what may still fascinate us ^_^
Before science religion was the way of life and people were satisfied with the answers it held, scientists who worked with evolution and held a more atheistic approach to life found a way for things to exist the way they do without gods direct hand, for them there was a new thing to believe in.
The problem really came when both viewed the other as direct threats, the religious side is a little more guilty for the extreme angle on this but fundamentalists existed and still do exist for both sides. The christian sense says evolution doesn't exist and things happened EXACTLY like they did in the bible, remember they have lived their whole lives with this belief of it being EXACTLY word for word.
The science community kind of tore the book of genesis apart after that, and that is directly where you get the debates of "why weren't dinosaurs mentioned in the bible" and "Things couldn't have happened exactly like they did in genesis" then there's one of my favorites "the bible can't account for evolution" and the topping on the cake?
"If god created the universe who created god?"
In truth they are all the same question, "Science is based on what we see and learn to be true, why isn't the bible as modern and directly accurate" and the truth is 2000 years ago you try explaining to farmers and commoners about the intricacies of quantum physics and genetic alteration, it's not easy doing it today and it would have been a nightmare back then.
I hope it's answered some of your questions about the debate side of things, I actually found my way to god through science so I cannot hate the practice, reality is science is just the method we employ to study and learn the world we exist in. The answers we find through it will never answer the all important one. Why?
Christians already know the why, the how is what may still fascinate us ^_^
L
Really what we need to keep in mind is the immensity of human ignorance. Science while being a useful system of acquiring new knowledge about the world has a number of limitations. A lot of people like to ignore those limitations and end up referring to plausible assumptions as hard scientific fact. The other people out there actually require demonstrable proof before they accept something is proven. The prerequisite that something be demonstrated to be the case prevents a great many widely believed theories from ever being proven unless we develop some sort of time travel device. You can't observe something occurring in the past without having been there yourself. Sure there may be evidence to support an idea but that same evidence can just as easily support a half dozen or more conflicting theories.
Big bang theory, evolutionary theory, the notion that a meteor wiped out the dinosaurs, and probably some other time specific ideas just can't be proven. To duplicate them on a small or even a large scale in modern times wouldn't prove that any of those things occurred before but would only prove that they can occur now and possibly could have occurred in the past.
Someone tomorrow could irrefutably prove that at this point in time macro-evolution can and is occurring and they would be unable to prove that it had ever occurred before.
Big bang theory, evolutionary theory, the notion that a meteor wiped out the dinosaurs, and probably some other time specific ideas just can't be proven. To duplicate them on a small or even a large scale in modern times wouldn't prove that any of those things occurred before but would only prove that they can occur now and possibly could have occurred in the past.
Someone tomorrow could irrefutably prove that at this point in time macro-evolution can and is occurring and they would be unable to prove that it had ever occurred before.
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Yep, thats right Wootie. original sin, is that which took place in the garden of Eden, what we call the Fall. It is the Fall, that brought death.
So if Evolution did happen that would make the bible wrong.
That is why I cannot understand Christians who hold to evolution, to me it does not make any sense at all.
Phil
You can't honestly say that the earth has been exactly the same as it's been since it was made can you? Obviously things have evolved at least to some degree. (For instance people were a lot shorter a thousand years ago)
Now, I'm not saying that I believe we all started out as single celled organisms, or that we all cae from an ape like creature. But evolution is a process that does indeed happen.
This however, does not make God any less in control, in fact it makes him more in control I think. He's mapped out not only the universe on it's own, as a stand still perfection, but has created a universe so advanced, so specific as to map out how things would end up thousands of years ahead of time.
I hope this makes sense to some people...
Now, I'm not saying that I believe we all started out as single celled organisms, or that we all cae from an ape like creature. But evolution is a process that does indeed happen.
This however, does not make God any less in control, in fact it makes him more in control I think. He's mapped out not only the universe on it's own, as a stand still perfection, but has created a universe so advanced, so specific as to map out how things would end up thousands of years ahead of time.
I hope this makes sense to some people...
20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man(Genesis 2:20-22).
God took a rib from Adam and created woman not by an evolutionary process and if God would create Eve that fast means He can create a whole person at once and not by an evolutionary process.Adam was a complete man when God created Eve for Him.Why would God create man to go through evolution
and wait to have fellowship with Him when He can create a person whole.God can create a person as a whole person and not evolution.God's whole purpose is to have fellowship with people so why would God wait for man to go through an evolution process to have fellowship with Him when He can create a man whole.
Matt
21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man(Genesis 2:20-22).
God took a rib from Adam and created woman not by an evolutionary process and if God would create Eve that fast means He can create a whole person at once and not by an evolutionary process.Adam was a complete man when God created Eve for Him.Why would God create man to go through evolution
and wait to have fellowship with Him when He can create a person whole.God can create a person as a whole person and not evolution.God's whole purpose is to have fellowship with people so why would God wait for man to go through an evolution process to have fellowship with Him when He can create a man whole.
Matt