Crisis of faith and the reality of the Holy Spirit

Simeon · Aug 19, 2016

Let me rephrase to be clear :
I'm trying to avoid the circularity caused by using faith or the bible to warrant belief in the Holy spirit because the holy spirit is what warrants faith and the bible to start with. to rely on them to warrant belief in the Holy Spirit in return would be circular thinking, a closed loop, a logical falacy.

Yahshua · Aug 19, 2016

Simeon said:

I think I understand.

Hmm...what if we did two things:

1) Let's not assume the validity of the bible rest on the Holy Spirit just yet. If we're trying to warrant belief in the Holy Spirit, that Spirit can't validate itself through its own testimony. {And for those who disagree please remember that Christ said of himself, "If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true." John 5:31. No Being can testify of *themselves*; it's a universal principle.}

2) Let's view the bible differently. It has to be used here, but it's a bit deceiving to consider the bible a "single" inspired work.

---

The "Bible" is a codified collection of individually written testimonies of people who witnessed a truth (God), each from their own perspective. And these were accounts spread across a span of time.

Generally speaking the more witnesses and testimonies confirming a "truth" the more validity it has...and also, if those witnesses (giving similar testimony) are spread further apart in proximity (whether in space or in time) then that validates a "truth" even more, right?

Like in a court of law, or in the realm of science, when nothing else warrants belief in an idea, common testimony from different sources validates that idea as truth, doesn't it? The more witnesses the better. Or like with money, the reason why there are two signatures on every bill or contract is because the testimony of two or more witnesses validates it as "money". If there aren't at least two who agree to a currency it can't be used for free exchange.

"The testimony of two or more witnesses validates any truth."; a universal principle the above examples prove is also independent of scripture.

So if we restore the scriptures back to what they original were (i.e. individual accounts documented by 40 different people on behalf of tens of thousands more, spread across time), then as long as each record testifies to the *same* truth (i.e. God, the Father of Spirits) wouldn't they together validate that truth?

...assuming this makes sense, the only other critical piece of the puzzle (as I can figure it) is that the knowledge of God would have to be constant (as a truth) across testimonies, and in order for that to happen these 40 witnesses (documenting on behalf of the tens of thousands more who were also witnesses) would have to experience the same Being/Spirit who *does not change* across all of that space/time, wouldn't they?

Does this avoid the circular logic?

bikerchaz · Aug 19, 2016

Simeon said:

Hi. I am answering your post without reading any other answers you have been given because I feel led to.

What you describe within your first statement I recognise as the 'father Christmas syndrome' eg; something to believe in because one wants to believe in something so it may as well be father Christmas.

Now for some serious talking.

Go and find a quiet spot, away from everyone and somewhere you will not be disturbed for at least a couple of hours. If that means taking a drive out or a bus or train to a secluded place do it but you need solitude.

Once there there a few things you need to do. Firstly ask God, the creator of all creation to protect you, and to make Himself known to you. Ask Jesus to show you Himself to you in the reality you are in at that moment. Ask the Holy Spirit to come in to you and live there.

Ours is not a blind faith we do to be different from the world or to stand out from the crowd. When we make the decision to accept Jesus sacrifice on the cross as a covering for our sinful nature we automatically become sons of God. Asking the Holy Spirit in to ourselves gives us the opportunity to actually receive part of God within us. This does not leave us untouched. The effect may be calm or it may be powerful, but there will be an effect, we will not be ignored and this then infuses us with the Holy nature of God which in turn causes us to repent of our past lives, and this repentance manifests itself in many and various ways.

The Holy Spirit is described as a deposit from God. He brought us with the shed blood of Jesus, a colossal cost to Himself. God allowed His son Jesus Christ to die to purchase you from death, and as a deposit, before you receive the promise of eternal life, God gives you His Spirit.

A comparison can be Made within the world we live in because we all know what a deposit is, we go to a shop and buy a new washing machine, we pay a deposit and go home to wait for delivery, our bank accounts a little lighter, and because of this we know, have faith, we are getting the item we bought.

God bought us WOW! He paid for us with the life of His only son, WOW! He gave us a deposit of part of Himself, WOW! His Spirit confirms within us we are His. There is no wondering about it.

If any problems appear then it is the packaging we use. What we do afterwards will effect our relationship with Jesus, if we stay focused we will be OK because we have His promise, He will never let us Go. If we use the freedoms He gives us for our own selfish desires we will be in trouble and in danger of loosing what He has so freely won for us.

To say that faith is based on nothing tangible is the "father Christmas syndrome", I have met with Jesus personally, I have heard His voice, Jesus words about shepherds and hearing His voice are not fluffy pie in the sky things, they are real and tangible, my faith is based on relationship and relationship means knowing someone, and you can know Jesus personally, when in the quiet place ask Him, You will never doubt again.

I ask you Jesus to open this persons eyes to see you clearly, Open their ears to hear you plainly, Open their heat and make it a heart of flesh to be able love you dearly, and unlock their mind from the enemies grasp so they are be able to understand your calling and accept you sacrifice and truly come to know you, in your name, in Jesus name Amen.

Zmouth · Aug 19, 2016

Yahshua said:

The testimony of two or more witnesses validates any truth?

So do hold that two or more witnesses always validates any truth? Every time in all cases?

A principle?

A principle can not be constructed from one precept but requires two or more precepts (qualifiers/rules) working together. Ex. Mortal is a life form that a) has a beginning and b) has an end of life.
Principles don't bend or break, nor do they have exceptions. And they always would have been true and will always hold true. And therein lays my hope in the promise of everlasting life since if he didn't rise they were lies, and if he rose the liar are exposed.

And absolutely evil if selectively applied, wink wink type applications.

Yahshua · Aug 19, 2016

Zmouth said:

The testimony of two or more witnesses validates any truth?

So do hold that two or more witnesses always validates any truth? Every time in all cases?

A principle?

A principle can not be constructed from one precept but requires two or more precepts (qualifiers/rules) working together. Ex. Mortal is a life form that a) has a beginning and b) has an end of life.
Principles don't bend or break, nor do they have exceptions. And they always would have been true and will always hold true. And therein lays my hope in the promise of everlasting life since if he didn't rise they were lies, and if he rose the liar are exposed.

And absolutely evil if selectively applied, wink wink type applications.

....not sure what you're trying to say here zmouth so can you reword for me?

Preacha24-7 · Aug 19, 2016

The Bible is to be taught not to get in big arguments. The Bible is God's Word and the final authority. If you don't accept what I say it won't hurt my feelings. God told me to preach the Word of God and not to be afraid to stand up to evil (false religions and false doctrines) Jesus is God. If you don't believe that its gonna be hard for you to be a Christian. Read these Scriptures John1:1-5; 10-18 John 8:58 Jesus was talking to the Pharisees. Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM. Jesus is the I AM. The same words that God told Moses in Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM". Jesus was telling the Pharisees that he was God because he was here before Abraham. Jesus is fully God John 5:17-27, John10:30-39, Col 2:9-10. Acts1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Ghost comes upon you. Demons can not control a Christian. If you're born again the Spirit of God is inside of you. God graves us the Holy Spirit because we can't defeat Satan and his demons with our own power. We defeat Satan with the Name of Jesus, the Word of God, and the power of the Holy Spirit. John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. Without faith it is impossible to please God Hebrews 11:6 Christians must live by faith. My faith in God is the only thing that has kept me from going crazy when facing tragedy or persecution. In times of weakness or when I felt like giving up, God gave me the strength to persevere. Isaiah40:28-31 and Romans 8:1-2. All these scriptures came from the New King James Bible. May these scriptures feed your spirit and help you to grow. Preacha24-7

Zmouth · Aug 19, 2016

Was you trying to say that two or more witnesses was a principle that validates the truth?

Danold · Aug 19, 2016

It looks to me like, having only read the OP, that he rejects "scientific fact". That is not what he says however, he says that "faith" is rejecting science. I believe that the answer is to look into Christian apologetics. Christian apologetics shows that the Christian Faith is NOT a faith in unscientific, but rather a MORE logical look look at reality. The Christian world view is more logical than the alternatives.

Yahshua · Aug 19, 2016

Zmouth said:

No. I said that "two or more witnesses validates a truth", was a principle.

Stunnedbygrace · Aug 19, 2016

Simeon said:

I came here asking for help. Some of you understood that and provided the best you could to answer my questions, my doubts, and i am very gratefull to you for it. be assured i will ponder upon what you wrote to me and will try to understand and integrate it into my thoughts. My faith is shaky, for reasons that i tried to explain as explicitely as possible. The answers I got were sometimes helpfull, but it seems to me for the most part you failed to understand what i was really asking. still, you helped with an open and compassionate heart, thank you.

I see a loop. i found myself stuck in a loop. when as a christian i assert something based on faith, i am not asserting something necessarily true, i am asserting something i believe. i am looking for justification to that belief. belief that the bible is the true word of God, belief that the Holy Spirit fills christians and leads them to the truth, belief we have no way to verify. i appreciate the bible quotes but they are of little use to establish the authority and veracity of the bible itself. some of the answers i got on this forum have clearly pointed to the fact that faith is not justified, not based on evidence, it is a matter of pure belief, reinforced, confirmed, by the perceived truth of that belief. i have yet to hear a single argument that does not falls back on the prior assertion that the bible is the true word of God and that Jesus is real. since it is what i am trying to justify ahving faith in, this is circular, nothing justifies that belief. the whole point is thus to have this unjustified prior belief and to build your faith upon it. i know enough of psychology to understand how one can get mislead that way into believing anything. if that escapes most of you, maybe it is just because you don't know enough of psychology. or maybe I don't get it simply because i am not touched by the Holy Spirit. but i have no reason to believe the holy spirit is real until i am touched by it. that others claim to be touched by it doesn't convince me, they are just relating their subjective experience. they could be deluded about it and not know it. i don't know. i don't claim to know. I'm trying to know.

my faith is melting away because i can not just "accept" it is true, not when there is a fair chance it is not true. any unjustified belief has a chance of being untrue. it is not to say it isn't true, just that doubt is the reasonable position. I'm trying to avoid confirmation bias, but i haven't found a valid , logical way to assert that my christian faith is not built upon cognitive bias. i have read and pondered your posts since yesterday, I'm affraid it gets past me. I'll pray and i'll try, but if it doesn't come, i can not just pretend to believe. i'll have to accept i don't.

i don't know what i will seek, if i will remain a christian or not. i can not decide what i believe and what i don't. if i end up not believing in Jesus, then i'll stop calling myself a christian. i appreciate everybody's effort to try to rekindle my faith. i am affraid that an objective look at what you all said shows that faith has to remain unjustified. that's not good enough for me. May God help me.

thanks you, God bless

So after you pray and try and ask God to let you meet this Holy Spirit others talk of having met, will you please come back to tell me what happened?

Zmouth · Aug 19, 2016

Yahshua said:

Yeah the OT law of the two or more witnesses is a precept and not a principle. I personally know a time when three eyewitnesses failed hold true to convict. A principle is always true, they don't bend, or break or even bow to the pressure but will hold true without fail.

Yahshua · Aug 19, 2016

Zmouth said:

I don't want to get sidetracked from the main topic of discussion but, with respect, your personal exception doesn't disprove the principle that "two or more witnesses validate a truth".

Firstly, it isn't saying, "two or more witnesses will ALWAYS validate a truth". It's saying, "it's impossible to validate a truth with just one witness. Truth must have more than one witness for validation.", which is always true (you actually say it a different way in your first reply).

This (I'm assuming) is the very motivation for Simeon's thread because as far as he saw/sees the only witness validating the truth of the Holy Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit of God, through (what's seen as) a "single" written testimony (i.e. the bible) that the Holy Spirit of God authored.

Secondly, there are may types of "witnesses", not just people, but I think you've read the law as meaning just people (EYEwitnesses)? For the benefit of what I hope to help Simeon with, I meant both people & the written accounts.

True, people can be flawed. But as we know, the fallibility of man doesn't prove the fallibility of a principle (particularly one of God's principles). In other words, just because man is flawed doesn't mean God's law is flawed (hence the need for Christ's work on the Cross).

Notwithstanding, this isn't an "OT" law because both Christ and Paul use the same law in the "NT"...and take special note as to how differently they used it.

Matthew 18:16
But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'

^Here Christ uses it to support confirming the trespass of an individual. The context shows it's people who are the "witnesses"; people give testimony.

2 Corinthians 13:1
This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."

^But here Paul uses it to support the number of times he has visited a group and warned them...and he's just one person; not three. So this particular context shows it's not people who are "witnesses" but Paul's repeated testimony that bears witness.

Finally in the following passage, John also confirms that "witnesses" are not just limited to people.

1 John 5:8
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

So the principle is, "It is impossible to validate a matter as true with just one witness (i.e. source of testimony). A matter must have more than one for validation of its truth."

oldethennew · Aug 19, 2016

MATT.18:16.
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of
two or three witnesses every word may be established.

EPH. 5:31.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife,
and they two shall be one flesh.

Simeon · Aug 19, 2016

thanks everybody for your interest and your responses.
I'll consider them all.

for yahshua and zmouth:

i'm not sure this witness testimony thing is really on point.

i might need to clarify something else: i hold that we accept the veracity of the bible on faith. i do not think there is valid evidence that what is in the bible is true, we do not know (in the philosophical sense) that what is described in the bible is true, we need to accept it on faith. now i realize that might be a contentious point, but if we are honnest with ourselves we have to concede it. without our faith we would not accept the bible, its miracles and its information about God. by itself, as a document, the bible is not a reliable source, any biblical scholar will tell you that. if it was a reliable source, then everbody on earth would accept it as such, the same way everybody accepts any proven facts.

so i would rather focus on faith itself, as faith supports the bible. you see, i'm digging back to the root of everything.

as i explained in my long posts, the justification we have for faith is that the holy spirit provides us with the knowledge of what is true and what is not. without the holy spirit, faith rests on no justification and is not a reliable way to know anything about God. it is indeferenciable from comfirmation bias or other delusions.

so we need to find something that warrants our belief that the Holy spirit actually provides us with knowldege of what is true and what is not. everything hinges on this. if the Holy spirit is accepted without justification, proof, warrant, anything to confirm independently from our subjective perception that it actually is what we think it is, then we could be wrong about it, we could have built our whole edifice of thought, our whole worldview, on shaky ground.

the bedrock of christianity is our conviction that the Holy spirit fills us and let us see the truth. if that is not the case, christianity is make believe. do we agree on that?

if we do, we have the imperative duty to make sure we are not deluded about this. i want what i will teach my kids to be true to be based on something rock solid, not wishful thinking.

this bedrock of the holy spirit needs to be rock solid to be a valid bedrock. what do we have to show that it is solid?
we can't use faith nor the bible, since they are built on top of this bedrock, they rest on it, they are part of the building, they are the ground floor.

is this clearer?

Zmouth · Aug 19, 2016

Having pulled in to my parking slot at the truck stop, I had just stepped outside my semi and begin walking to the back of the trailer to get better reception on my cell phone, as three Medina County Sheriff department officer pulled up.

The one Sheriff's Deputy walked up and asked me where I had just came in from. And a little unsure why they were there I responded that I had been there. And as the Deputy continued to questioned me I realized what was happening.

And as he was asking me if I sure about being here the other two deputies where looking over my flatbed trailer pretty closely. At which point he asked if I had been drinking, to which I affirmed I had. When asked the amount I responded definitely more than what would be allow by law to operate a motor vehicle, for sure.

After denying just driving again the Deputy began to advise me that they had received three 911 calls from three different motorist that all stated they were almost run off the road by a erratic driver that was operating a flatbed rig matching the description of mine, having the same licence plate number as mine, and followed that vehicle to this location. At which point he asked if I really thought he really was going to believe that I was telling him the truth and those three callers were all lying to him.

So according to your quote it would have been impossible for me to have validate the matter alone not withstanding the fact there was the three 911 callers. So as I began placing my hands behind my back I responded that I wasn't asking him to believe me, just the truth.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:4-6

Yet like I said it isn't a principle, that is how I was able to validate the truth being just one witness?

Simeon · Aug 19, 2016

Yahshua said:

Correct me if i get this wrong but it sounds to me you are saying that since more than 40 witnesses report in the bible, their testimony is reliable.

Do you think that all 40 authors or so of the bible agree on their story ? It seems to me those authors are not always saying the same thing. Beside they could have believed anything they wanted, that wouldn't necessarily make them correct. The more recent authors clearly had read the more ancient ones. i think accepting as reliable the testimony of those authors the early church accepted as "acceptable" in its canon do show some bias. the testimonies in the bible are not exactly unbiased, don't you think?

so back to the holy spirit.

I think the first step in all this would be to determine what kind of test we can devise to check if the holy spirit is real. What would show it is not, also, to avoid confirmation bias. I mean, we got a hypothesis, let's test it, right ?

What kind of thing would be convincing enough to show that the Holy spirit really fills people ?

I can't think of anything, and i'm hoping people here might bring something up that i could then consider.

Actually i am kind of surprised this is not coming up easier. The belief in the holy spirit is indeed the bedrock of christianity. It seems like if nobody has wondered if it was true before.

Zmouth · Aug 19, 2016

Simeon said:

If that is what you believe, belief and faith are not the same thing.

Believing is hope without substance. While you hope what you believe is true, you don't put any effort into validating it or labor into examining. You can summarily choose what you want to believe and likewise what you choose to believe in not.

Faith doesn't work that way. Faith is hope with substance, or basis upon which our based our hope.

And the first step to faith is to believe all things are possible, not to have faith in all things are possible but to keep the the possibility of things we don't know may be possible since what you summarily allow yourself to belief is true misleads one into summarily believe things are not true.

Somebody once asked me if I would believe them if they said Adam married a man in Genesis. And I was like what? And while you have to really know who asked me yet I trust that there was a reason for the question. Since I could did not have the principle by which I could definitely say that there was no possible way, I said yes I believe you. Of course I immediately got a Bible and re-read Genesis to find out exactly what was necessary to let them know why Adam didn't marry a man.

Once you allow the possibility of something being true even if you don't have faith it is true, the next step is to make inquiry and search the matter out.

Once you gather your information you examine, you test it, and you prove it.

I always did enjoy my little talks with the Holy Ghost, so did Adam marry a man? Yes she did.

Simeon · Aug 20, 2016

I mentioned this in a previous post but you might have missed it :

Faith is an epistemology.

Epistemology is a branch of philosophy focusing on how one comes to knowledge, which processes of knowing can be relied upon to lead one to truth, and what knowledge is.

A knowledge claim is an assertion of truth. For example : « I have faith that Jesus will heal my sickness because it says so in Luke » is a knowledge claim. When I say « I have faith that Jesus walked on water», it is obviously not a trust claim, nor a hope claim. When I say that, I really mean it, I do not imply that I merely hope Jesus will heal my sickness or that He was resurrected. I am saying I know it to be true. Faith is an epistemology. It is a process of knowing.

But by definition, knowledge is a justified true belief.

That means that to know something, that belief in something needs not only to be true ( the belief must lawfully correspond to reality), it most importantly needs to be justified ( one needs something to warrant that belief).

Faith is used for justification, it replaces, suplants even, the need for evidence in justification. Faith is a process we christians use to come to knowledge about the inevident, it is the something that warrants our belief. Most people seem to agree that faith is a conviction attained and maintained unrelated to evidence and reason. « Evidence takes you only so far, faith takes you the rest of the way » is something I hear often. Faith is the word we invoke when there is not enough evidence as justification to warrant a belief in a proposition, but when we decide to believe anyway and need to justify ourselves. All the other definitions of faith I have encountered so far, including Hebrew 11:1, are just another way to say this or were word play, equivocation.

Hope is not the same as faith. Hoping is not the same as knowing.if you hope something happened, you are not claiming it did happen. You don't say « I hope jesus walked on water », you say I have faith Jesus walked on water. That's claiming Jesus actually did walk on water, not just wishing it did.

You say faith is hope with substance.

What is this substance you are talking about ? Knowledge. Faith is what enables us to make a knowledge claim. Do you see what I mean ?

Yahshua · Aug 20, 2016

With respect I think you're still missing what I'm pointing out...and I'm not sure what you intention here is. Is it to help Simeon with his question, edify me, or what?

Zmouth said:

You've missed the witnesses that would validate the truth that you deserved being arrested.

The Witnesses in your hypothetical:

1) The officers seeing that you were the one operating the semi with the license plate given (they saw you just get out)

2) Your own testimony that you were drinking "definitely more than" the legal limit

3) The officer's assessment of your body's testimony (sobriety), which they always check (your smell, your behavior, hearing your words), which the body always provides when drinking "definitely more than" the legal limit of alcohol

With these three witnesses the officers just validated that you to broke the law, which warrants your arrest so that you don't get behind the wheel again and potentially hurt someone.

4) The 911 calls made by the three callers would be considered a "single" witness or "report" as they all came in at the *same time* (i.e. in close proximity).

Any of these claims all alone, wouldn't have been enough to arrest you...no, not even your own testimony of drinking too much would've been enough to arrest you without witnesses 1, 3, and 4 to validate it.

It's a principle.

trofimus · Aug 20, 2016

Simeon said:

I think you got it wrong. What you are describing is called a "blind faith".

And no wonder such faith must fall into crisis.

Christian faith is based on evidence and on truth in every area of life (logic, reason, history etc), made living by the Holy Spirit dwelling in you.

Crisis of faith and the reality of the Holy Spirit

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