David vs goliath (question)

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J

Jealouz

Guest
#1
Just a question, i don`t want to make anybody mad, i`m just
interested in learning. It says david slays goliath, well don`t it
say in the bible though shall not kill, it just confuses me, i know
through jesus, killers are forgiven most of his apostles were
former killers etc..

It would be great to get a better understanding, insight, i have
a lot of question for those who have answers.

-Bless-
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#2
If the Almighty tells you to do something, then do it.

No need to question his intentions, for he knows best.
 
D

didymos

Guest
#3
Welcome to CC. ;)

I don't know how you got the notion that most apostels were former killers, because that's just not true when you read your Bible. In principle you are correct when you refer to the sixth commandment, because all human life is sacred in the eyes of the Lord. Some translators like to translate it with "you shall not murder" though, which gives that commandment a whole other meaning. Murder is killing a human being without any justification. Sometimes the cause CAN be just, though. Just think what would have happenend if the allies hadn't stopped Hitler in WW II. It cost many, mostly young, lives and for the case of freedom to prevail a lot of enemies of liberty had to be killed (to simplify the matter), but in the end the cause was just to do so.
Now Goliath is a symbol for everything that defies God and his Kingdom of justice and peace. You could say that Goliath and the Philistines were the Hitler and nazis of his age. So the cause for killing him was just, this wasn't murder. And in the end it wasn't David who slew Goliath; it was God himself, David was just an instrument. That is indicated by the great difference in strenght beteen David and Goliath. David wasn't as tall as Goliath, he refused to wear armour like Goliath and really wasn't as strong. So no one else but God himself ultimatiey killed Goliath, for justice to prevail. Having said that, you could even say that God stands above his own commandments. The sixth commandment was given to mankind to abide by, by God.
 
N

nukreation

Guest
#4
To put the story of David and Goliath into context, the Isrealites were at war with the Philistines, and the Philistines had sent out their champion to challenge the Isrealites to send forward a man to fight. So the fight between David and Goliath was a battle to resolve a war. The bible teaches us that the battles we fight as christians are no longer against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers of darkness, but the same principle stands - Our God is more powerful than the god of the world and we too can win any victory when we have faith in Him.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#5
Just a question, i don`t want to make anybody mad, i`m just
interested in learning. It says david slays goliath, well don`t it
say in the bible though shall not kill, it just confuses me, i know
through jesus, killers are forgiven most of his apostles were
former killers etc..

It would be great to get a better understanding, insight, i have
a lot of question for those who have answers.

-Bless-
It all goes to context. He also told the rulers, if someone take another mans life, their life is to be taken in kind as punishment, Which means if all death was a sin, God was telling them to sin. which is not the case.

David was at war. His victory over goliath saved probably thousands of lives. War is different, it is kill or be killed. We should never tell a soldier it is sin to kill, any hesitation on anyones part will lead to his death and the deaths of those around them.
 

Jon4TheCross

Senior Member
Oct 19, 2012
1,864
7
38
#6
We must remember that even before the Holy Spirit was freely given after Jesus died and rose again, we could still love with perfect love, cause to whom much is given much is required. To look on a woman and lust is adultery, even if some didn't realize it back then. It is part of love to get rid of death. Killing in the old testament was not truly ending life, just killing the disease of death and evil, which we do now in truth by the Holy Spirit. It is wrong for us to kill for any reason, but God knows the hearts and is the judge of that. The old testament laws were baby steps to bring us to the knowlege and understanding of the everlasting priesthood and it's never changing law. In other words, the old testament people were already dead when the flesh was killed, and God knows this. To even hate someone not forever evil is the same now as killing, but it's always been ok to hate evil. Now the best solution is to trust God with your life@soul, and don't resist if someone wants to kill your flesh literally, cause you would be going home. You'll never die in Christ, well, the real you.

I love you all.
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#7
Just a question, i don`t want to make anybody mad, i`m just
interested in learning. It says david slays goliath, well don`t it
say in the bible though shall not kill, it just confuses me, i know
through jesus, killers are forgiven most of his apostles were
former killers etc..

It would be great to get a better understanding, insight, i have
a lot of question for those who have answers.

-Bless-
Most of it seems to come from translation....it appears the original wording for the ten commandments would have translated into thou shalt not murder. And Murder is very different than killing. Its that simple.
 
U

Ugly

Guest
#8
When it comes to killing there are two motives. One is selfish, or pleasure seeking. Such as killing an unfaithful spouse, killing an opposing gang member, or just being a psychopath. These murders are done with hatred and murder in the heart.
On the other hand there is killing for a reason, self defense, being in the military, etc.. These are times when you kill, not out of selfishness, pleasure or any desire to kill, but out of a defense of some kind of another. The killing is incidental, rather than the goal. That is the distinction. David did not kill Goliath out of a murderous heart, but out of defense of his country, his king and his friends. Killing was the only way to resolve the problem.
Bear in mind, sin is not always about the action, but often about the intention.
 

Jon4TheCross

Senior Member
Oct 19, 2012
1,864
7
38
#9
Who would disagree (y'all can answer this to yourself) with this statement?

Never trust anyone for spiritual advice concerning God if they would ever kill a person in this new covenant?

I love you all, just pokin at the heart.
 
B

Bradley

Guest
#10
A better translation for that commandment would be thou shalt not murder. Death is the penalty for many offenses in the Law.
 
N

nathan3

Guest
#11
[size=+2]( King James Version ) Exodus 20:13 [13] Thou shalt not kill. .

Now Lets look at the word in the language it was written . In this case its in Exodus, so its going to be Hebrew.

Where going to need the Strong's Concordance to do this .

It is Strong's number

7523
ratsach
raw-tsakh'

a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:--put to death, kill, (man-)slay(-er), murder(-er).


(So there we have it, dose not read the same in English as it dose in Hebrew.

As if we did not know what Murder is already. It's premeditated criminal , homicide. That's lying in wait to kill some one for no reason. Criminal .)
............................................................


Christ uses this same word I think; When He says in

Matthew 5 : [21]" Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:"

This is in the New Testament, and its in Greek, so lets go back to the Strong's to see what this word says in the Greek.


So lets see the word Christ used here There are two mention of the word kill, so lets look at them both. the first kill is

5407
foneuw
phoneuo
fon-yoo'-o

from foneuV - phoneus 5406; to be a murderer (of):--kill, do murder, slay. Lets look at this word ( 5406 ) it mentions in connection; just for a possible deeper understanding of the word used here by Christ :

5406
foneuV
phoneus
fon-yooce'

from fonoV - phonos 5408; a murderer (always of criminal (or at least intentional) homicide; which anqrwpoktonoV - anthropoktonos 443 does not necessarily imply; while sikarioV - sikarios 4607 is a special term for a public bandit):--murderer.

We can go a little deeper and look at the words it mentions in connection ; ( 5408 , 443 , and 4607 )

5408
fonoV
phonos
fon'-os

from an obsolete primary pheno (to slay); murder:--murder, + be slain with, slaughter.

next :

443
anqrwpoktonoV
anthropoktonos
anth-ro-pok-ton'-os

from anqrwpoV - anthropos 444 and kteino (to kill); a manslayer:--murderer. Compare foneuV - phoneus 5406.

and last:
4607
sikarioV
sikarios
sik-ar'-ee-os

of Latin origin; a dagger-man or assassin; a freebooter (Jewish fanatic outlawed by the Romans):--murderer. Compare foneuV - phoneus 5406.

and we see it connects back to 5406.

Now we have a understanding of the word used in Exodus 20 : 15 [13] Thou shalt not kill.
and ever understand better what Christ said in Matthew 5: [21] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:. Just from a simple study Hebrew and Greek word study that anyone can do.

We have a better understanding of what The Heavenly Father meant, where the English didn't quite cut it in this situation.

We can take it farther, by reading, even instance the work kill or murder is used in the old testament. and new. And taking into account what is happening . Then we get to know this word better and how its used in what situations dealing with what ever the subject is its used, in.

All places in the (((( King James )))) where the word , " kill " is located .

Now we just saw how the word kill did not, carry well over to the English from the Hebrew as used in Exodus 20:15.
So you may need to look at the Hebrew for all of these words to get a clearer picture.
But read the subject each of these words are used in , like in what context.

This is why I'm so appose to "new" translations of the Bible, into newer English . Because most often it drifts farther away from the original meaning most all the time in these new translations. They make get one word better, and farther muddy 1000 words.

So I like the King James Version, for that reason . and The fact that the Strong's Concordance is " keyed" it's numbering system; to the King James Version.

I did not write out the other like words,that appear in the King James related to this study: KILLETH and KILLED had a lot of entries as well. So i did not want to write them all out. But I wrote the other words where you can find them





( This is probably the best "Online version "of the Strong's available that I know of >> http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/index.htm )

....................................................................................................................
The word KILLING, ( K.J.V)

Judg.
9:24

2Chr
30:17

Is.
22:13

Hos.
4:2

Mk.
12:5

..............................................................

The word KILLEST ( K.J.V )

Mt.
23:37

Lk.
13:34


................................................



The word KILLEDST " ( K.J.V )

Ex.
2:14

1Sa
24:18

The English word , KILL ( K.J.V )

Gen.
4: 15
12:12
26:7
27:42
37:21

Ex.
1:16
2:14
4:24
12:6
12:21
16:3
17:3
20:13
22:1
22:24
29:11
29:20

Lev.
1:5
1:11
3:2
3:8
3:13
4:4
4:24
4:33
7:2
7:2
14:13
14:19
14:25
14:50
16:11
16:15
20:4
20:16
22:28

Num.
11:15
14:15
16:13
22:29
31:17
31:17
35:27

Deut
4:42
5:17
12:15
12:21
13:9
32:39

Judg.
13:23
15:13
16:2
20:31
20:39

1Sa.
16:2
17:9
17:9
19:1
19:2
19:17
24:10
30:15

2Sa.
13:28
14:7
14:32
21:4

1Kin.
11:40
12:27

2Kin.
5:7
7:4
11:15

2Chr
35:6

Est.
3:13

Ps.
59: t
[To the chiefe musician Al-taschith, Michtam of Dauid: when Saul sent, and they watcht the house to kill him.] Deliuer me from mine enemies, O my God: defend mee from them that rise vp against me.

Eccl.
3:3

Is.
14:30
29:1

Eze.
34:3

Mt.
5:21
5:21
10:28
10:28
17:23
21:38
23:34
24:9
26:4

Mk
3:4
9:31
10:19
10:34
12:7

Lk
12:4
13:31
15:23
18:20
20:14
22:2

Jn.
5:18
7:1
7:19
7:20
7:25
8:22
8:37
8:40
10:10

Acts
7:28
9:23
9:24
10:13
21:31
23:15
25:3
26:21
27:42

Rom.
13:9

Jas.
2:11
2:11
4:2

Rev.
2:23
6:4
6:8
9:5
11:7

Here is a good study Bible . It is one of the Best if not, THE best out there. Here it is online ( it is not a commentary ) ---->http://www.levendwater.org/companion/The Companion Bible - Bullinger/index.htm
[/size]
 
Last edited:

Jon4TheCross

Senior Member
Oct 19, 2012
1,864
7
38
#12
I thought it good to add this.
In the following verses we see that Jesus is speaking about the dead. It's always good to remember that just because you are not in the flesh anymore, it doesn't mean that you are dead. The Old Testament time was partly there to teach us about death, without us really dying. Goliath may not be dead, but I don't know. It is true that when a person kills the flesh of another, that person does not know much of love, and is still under the power of evil.

King James Version Luke 20:37 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
King James Version Luke 20:38 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
 
J

jkalyna

Guest
#13
THE ORIGINAL COMMANDMENT SAID, DO NOT MURDER. THINGS ARE KILLED EVERYDAY, CHICKENS FOR FOOD. A BEAR TRYING TO HAVE THE FAMILY FOR IT'S DINNER. THERE'S MENTION OF THE SONS OF JACOB WHO WERE HUNTERS, AND THE LOVE OF THE GAME FOR SOUP, IT'S JUST SURVIVAL, THIS IS NOT A SIN. THE LORD ALWAYS WAS WITH HIS PEOPLE IN BATTLE, AND TOLD NEHEMIAH THAT EVERYONE SHOULD ARM THEMSELVES, WOMEN AND CHILDREN, FOR BATTLE, IF NEEDED, TO PROTECT THEMSELVES. GOD ANOINTED SAMSON, WHO SLEW THOUSANDS OF PHILISTINES. MURDER COMES FROM AN EVIL HEART, IT IS DIFFERENT THAN THE WORD KILL. FISH ARE KILLED IN THE THOUSANDS FOR FOOD EVERY DAY. THE DICIPLES WERE FISHERMAN, THEY KILLED FISH FOR FOOD, AND CAUGHT A NET FULL BY JESUS COMMAND TO CAST IT ON THE OTHER SIDE.:cool:
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,033
108
63
#14
Just a question, i don`t want to make anybody mad, i`m just
interested in learning. It says david slays goliath, well don`t it
say in the bible though shall not kill, it just confuses me, i know
through jesus, killers are forgiven most of his apostles were
former killers etc..

It would be great to get a better understanding, insight, i have
a lot of question for those who have answers.

-Bless-
God is just in all God does or has done forever and forever this will be always. So I do not Question this with King David or with Moses or with king Hezekiah where God ovenight sleighed 165,000 and God's chosen had nothing to do with it.
God is the judge and the only righteous judge.
We are people in this world and there are those that are of this world. I tell you the truth there are tares amongst the wheat, let them both grow together, for the wheat might be hurt before the harvest. Todays age we all are in this freedom of the Holy Ghost in the Spirit of God restored as Adam and Eve were before they ever ate from that evil tree that masqueraded as good. Today being restored we can eat freely from the tree of life, Jesus Christ. In the Old Testament we fought physically in the new Spiritually, yet many have been taken over because they will not give up flesh as was me for a long time, and Saint Peter as well, who tried to fight and cut off the man's ear that was come to bring Jesus to trial, Jesus told Peter his kingdom is of Heaven not eartand restored tha man's ear, Wow how I would have felt if Iwere this man and he restored my ear
Brother ever since the death of Christ at that moment we the believers were brough under a new covenant Hebrews 9:15-17 proof of that death was three days then the ressurection, were new life is installed in the believerempowered by and from God on high
Homwardbound Iam, I do not fear those that can destroy the body, I fear God who can destroy both body and Soul
 
F

feedm3

Guest
#15
[SIZE=+2]( King James Version ) Exodus 20:13 [13] Thou shalt not kill. .

Now Lets look at the word in the language it was written . In this case its in Exodus, so its going to be Hebrew.

Where going to need the Strong's Concordance to do this .

It is Strong's number

7523
ratsach
raw-tsakh'

a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:--put to death, kill, (man-)slay(-er), murder(-er).


(So there we have it, dose not read the same in English as it dose in Hebrew.

As if we did not know what Murder is already. It's premeditated criminal , homicide. That's lying in wait to kill some one for no reason. Criminal .)
............................................................[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]


[/SIZE]I think you have given the best answer. It should be translated thou shalt not murder," Not "kill". Otherwise all killing would be wrong, even killing animals for food
 
Sep 7, 2012
532
0
0
#16
Does it make any difference if we remember that David picked up 5 stones, not just the one which killed Goliath. Were they picked up "just in case" he had to do it from his own strength and thankfully it turned out that he did not need the other 4.
 
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
58
0
#17
Goliath had four brothers.
That's why David chose five smooth stones.
David knew God was with him.
He also knew how expert he was at the slingshot.
He knew he could pick them all off with one apiece if need be.
(The other four brothers were killed at various latter engagements by
David's 'mighty men of valor'.
The philistines were attacking the Israelites.
'Thou shalt not kill' does not mean you shouldn't defend yourself, or your family or your nation when attacked.
 

Jon4TheCross

Senior Member
Oct 19, 2012
1,864
7
38
#18
Matthew 5: 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
� KJV

Jesus clarified the commandment Himself, and this is the same as it was when we saw the shadow of it.

To kill for food is different than not killing a person at the cost of your own earthen vessel (which can be raised back).
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#19
David and Goliath speak more about slaying the enemy, the giant!
Interesting though, that an army could not crush the giant enemy, all one needed was a rock.
Just something to think about. :)

God bless
pickles
 
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
58
0
#20
Matthew 5: 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
� KJV

Jesus clarified the commandment Himself, and this is the same as it was when we saw the shadow of it.

To kill for food is different than not killing a person at the cost of your own earthen vessel (which can be raised back).

It means murder in cold blood. Not defending the innocent from a raving murderer, or a hording army of murderers. We are to defend the weak. And stop the ravager.
(Every state in the Union has laws on the books that allow the use of lethal force for self defense or for defending someone being attacked with deadly force.) And the origin of these laws is straight from the bible.