Death and Dying, part deux

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Depleted

Guest
#21
I find that Magenta's observations and perception to always be on target.
When I was young, there was a game called Lawn Darts. Sort of like horse shoes but 9"-1' long darts. Darts like the game of darts but in bigger scale. The object was to throw the dart across the lawn and have it land in a circle. No hand-eye coordination back then, so I threw a dart and people behind me had to run. It landed three feet behind me.

Same kind of "on target" Magenta has.

Really? Really really? You think I think God is a puppeter? You think I think God is the author of evil? A torturer?

Doesn't say much for what you think of me. It also doesn't say much for what you think Notmyown, Tinivel, Angela, Johnny, Sov, Preach, and a whole lot more are.
 
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Depleted

Guest
#22
If you are 67, how have you seen God protecting you for over 70 years.....? ������

Those were supposed to be laughing face emoticons :)
That year thingy when we sign up is harder to work then we think it is. lol
 

Joidevivre

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2014
3,838
271
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#23
If you are 67, how have you seen God protecting you for over 70 years.....? ������

Those were supposed to be laughing face emoticons :)
That age has not changed on this site for years. Yes, I'm over 70
 

Joidevivre

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2014
3,838
271
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#24
Through my younger years, I lived in incest by my brother . . . In 2003, I got cancer . . . do I believe that God "permitted" these things to happen to me? NOPE, I sure don't. I attribute it to the one who is the accuser, the liar, the evil one, to this fallen world . . . death and sin entered due to one man's transgression. All evil is purported by the evil one, the devil, the god of this world . . . the whole world lies in wickedness . . . the devil as a roaring lion seeks whom he may devour . . . we are not to be ignorant of his devices . . .

As for my healing - I give all the honor and glory to God.
Yes, I, too, believe that not every bad thing comes from God. Some come from the evil working in people, and some from our own choices.

In my testimony, I was at a place in Christ that I felt completely protected and shielded from evil. That if anything touched me, it had to go through Christ first. I lived in Him. But so many people in this world who are not in Christ do not have this hedge of protection around them. They are not in Christ, but they are at the mercy of the sicknesses and evil the world generates - at the mercy of Satan.

So my experience is mine alone. We just can't know how and why others are harmed, not healed or not protected. We do not know their place in Christ or even their faith. A statement condensing it down to one truth hardly fits everywhere.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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#25
Through my younger years, I lived in incest by my brother . . . In 2003, I got cancer . . . do I believe that God "permitted" these things to happen to me? NOPE, I sure don't. I attribute it to the one who is the accuser, the liar, the evil one, to this fallen world . . . death and sin entered due to one man's transgression. All evil is purported by the evil one, the devil, the god of this world . . . the whole world lies in wickedness . . . the devil as a roaring lion seeks whom he may devour . . . we are not to be ignorant of his devices . . .

As for my healing - I give all the honor and glory to God.
It's odd...I couldn't trust God if He wasn't in control over even the evil that is allowed to touch me. In fact, it would be impossible for me to trust Him if He said, you have to keep living in this world even though you are now mine and I'm sorry but I have no control over satan, sickness, evil, etc., So whatever satan and evil men want to do is what will happen to you and I can't stop any of it.

And you have a similar problem to me. You couldn't trust God UNLESS He had no control over it.

It really is odd, isn't it? I can't trust God UNLESS He is in complete control and you can't trust Him unless He isnt...

I must seem every bit as odd to you as you do to me! :)
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
#26
im still trying to see where the debate is....

no one actually answered me other than didy in the last thread

(._.')

well lynn kinda sorta did

but she didnt disagree with any of my key points


not trying to pretend im smart

but my understanding is biblically accurate is it not?

vvvvvvvv

_________________

"I believe God is omniscient, and what He doesn't do, He allows"
i believe this
is absolutely 100% true

and i would add to this

everything He allows
and everything He does is ultimately used for good....


wether it is

to work patience in His children

to teach lessons that will extend long past these temporal bodies

to glorify His own name

to work out prophecy

to chasten or correct

or maybe other reasons beyond our simple and limited understanding...


some verses to back up the original points i posted



1. God is all powerful and can ultimately do whatever He wishes whenever He wishes.

2. God is perfect and He is just regardless of our views on what He does or allows.

3. God can work ANYTHING for good.

4. God tempts NO MAN at ANYPOINT with evil.


Proverbs 16:4 - The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Romans 8:28 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose

Psalms 115:3 - But our God [is] in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Ephesians 1:11 - In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

James 1:13
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:


romans 9


15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?




(sorry for the double post i wont spam it again on this thread...)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,043
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#27
Yes, I don't think He causes an evil person to do the evil to me.
That is an important distinction to make, yet now you say:

It's a moot point to argue if He willed vs permitted...
It can hardly be moot when to say God caused it makes God the author of evil. To confuse the permissive will of God with the sovereign will of God as if He would violate His moral will, is to malign the character of God.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#28
It's odd...I couldn't trust God if He wasn't in control over even the evil that is allowed to touch me. In fact, it would be impossible for me to trust Him if He said, you have to keep living in this world even though you are now mine and I'm sorry but I have no control over satan, sickness, evil, etc., So whatever satan and evil men want to do is what will happen to you and I can't stop any of it.

And you have a similar problem to me. You couldn't trust God UNLESS He had no control over it.

It really is odd, isn't it? I can't trust God UNLESS He is in complete control and you can't trust Him unless He isnt...

I must seem every bit as odd to you as you do to me! :)
"So whatever satan and evil men want to do is what will happen to you and I can't stop any of it." See, I have never said that. . . the questioning has been "the evil coming from God" and if God is in control of everything then he causes evil. You know it's like saying God made me sick so that he could heal me - God sent me evil spirits so he could cast them out . . . God had that car hit me so that he could teach me something, etc.

God can and does work in our lives to prevent evil from happening to us - ever been going somewhere and have a certain route planned out but God tells you to go a different route and you find out about a pile up you would have been involved in? Yep . . . and hasn't he given us a whole suit of armor to quench the firey darts of the wicked. When the devil was given dominion over the world - God didn't give it to him - mankind did through disobedience. Until Christ returns, he is in control of this world - the whole world lies in wickedness. Bad things will and do happen to the just and the unjust alike . . but not from God.

My problem does not come from God helping us in times of trouble . . . I totally believe he does. My problem is with God being the cause of evil. If God was in control of EVERYTHING, then he is in control of evil, i.e. the causation of evil. Is evil darkness? Would one have to have darkness in order to perpetrate evil?
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
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#29
You're a lilac bush!

(And, in full disclosure, man! I had a lot of trouble picking an object that I can call you that doesn't have any kind of symbolic meaning to it too. I started with "goat," but being Christians, calling you a goat is particularly disturbing. Went straight to something I love -- chocolate -- and was going to call you a Hershey bar, but.... I'm really shocked how many words we've come to use that are associated with something else too. And, that's why I picked lilac bush. The first thing that doesn't have symbolism already attached to it that hit my brain. lol)
But Lilacs can symbolize this:

Lilacs are purple flowers associated with the "language of flowers". They symbolize the emotions of early love. The color lilac is associated with mourning. Black was worn in some countries to symbolize death. After a year of mourning, the key mourners, such as the widow, could switch to lilac for clothing, the border for stationary etc. This is an older use, around the mid to late 1800's. Like other variations of purple, lilacs are associated also with spirituality.

So, are you calling Magenta a spiritual love who brings death and mourning?

(Just kidding!)






 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
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#30
That is an important distinction to make, yet now you say:

It can hardly be moot when to say God caused it makes God the author of evil. To confuse the permissive will of God with the sovereign will of God as if He would violate His moral will, is to malign the character of God.
I should have included "to me" in that sentence. It has become a moot point to me to have argument over if God willed or permitted some evil to come to me because my faith is such now that it makes it unnecessary to wrestle with the question. If He works all things to my good as I know now, I can accept every circumstance without fear of and mistrust of Him.

As far as maligning God, I haven't seen anyone say that God causes a man to pick up a gun and shoot me or to molest or harm me. Someone may have said it elsewhere, but I have never (yet) seen a man in here malign God by saying He causes men to do evil to other men.

In fact, I don't think it's even part of the argument that anyone is saying God causes men to do evil. I rather think the argument is over if He permits men to do evil to His children. One person says yes, He permits it sometimes. Another person says, no, it's just that He has no control over it and can't stop the evil man.
 

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
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#31
I should have included "to me" in that sentence. It has become a moot point to me to have argument over if God willed or permitted some evil to come to me because my faith is such now that it makes it unnecessary to wrestle with the question. If He works all things to my good as I know now, I can accept every circumstance without fear of and mistrust of Him.

As far as maligning God, I haven't seen anyone say that God causes a man to pick up a gun and shoot me or to molest or harm me. Someone may have said it elsewhere, but I have never (yet) seen a man in here malign God by saying He causes men to do evil to other men.

In fact, I don't think it's even part of the argument that anyone is saying God causes men to do evil. I rather think the argument is over if He permits men to do evil to His children. One person says yes, He permits it sometimes. Another person says, no, it's just that He has no control over it and can't stop the evil man.
If someone believes God is not in control, why pray? How can they know with any level of surety He can answer their prayer?
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
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#32
"So whatever satan and evil men want to do is what will happen to you and I can't stop any of it." See, I have never said that. . . the questioning has been "the evil coming from God" and if God is in control of everything then he causes evil. You know it's like saying God made me sick so that he could heal me - God sent me evil spirits so he could cast them out . . . God had that car hit me so that he could teach me something, etc.

God can and does work in our lives to prevent evil from happening to us - ever been going somewhere and have a certain route planned out but God tells you to go a different route and you find out about a pile up you would have been involved in? Yep . . . and hasn't he given us a whole suit of armor to quench the firey darts of the wicked. When the devil was given dominion over the world - God didn't give it to him - mankind did through disobedience. Until Christ returns, he is in control of this world - the whole world lies in wickedness. Bad things will and do happen to the just and the unjust alike . . but not from God.

My problem does not come from God helping us in times of trouble . . . I totally believe he does. My problem is with God being the cause of evil. If God was in control of EVERYTHING, then he is in control of evil, i.e. the causation of evil. Is evil darkness? Would one have to have darkness in order to perpetrate evil?
I didn't say you said that. I wasn't quoting you. I was giving my mind on the matter and how I see, understand, think and process it.
I see it much differently than you. I don't think that because God permits an evil man to do something evil to me, that it means He caused or was the origin of the evil. For instance, He permitted/allowed Josephs brothers to sell him into slavery. He meant it to save many men from later starvation during a famine. Josephs brothers did not mean it for anyones good.

He let Joseph go through it and did not stop it from happening to Joseph. I believe He could have easily stopped it from happening to Joseph. I believe He has the power to control it, permit it, not permit it, etc. But as scripture says, you meant it for evil but God meant it for good. And as scripture also says, He works all thinks for good to those who love Him and are called by Him.

So it doesn't matter if other men mean something for evil if God means it for good. Because the darkness will never overcome the light and satan is not stronger than God and his will does not trump Gods will.

As I said to magenta, God permitting something to happen, like to Joseph or Job or Jesus, does not mean He caused it. If He caused men to do and be evil, He could not justly punish them for their evil. God did not cause Judas to betray Jesus. He did not cause Josephs brothers to do evil to Joseph. He did not cause a hurricane to collapse the houses and kill Jobs children.

To give permission to satan to buffet someone does not mean God is the origin, source or causation of the buffeting. And He will also have a darn good reason for permitting it, even if we can't see it. And that reason will be that He means it for good, not for bad.

We have a really good example of what I'm saying with Jesus. After the evil done to Him, God managed to have permitted it in order to save many souls alive, just as in the story of Joseph. There IS nothing more evil than what men did to Jesus. And yet God managed to take what satan intended for evil and turn it to the saving of many. He permitted evil to do all it could think to do and yet evil didn't win or even achieve what it wanted to. God turned it to victory for many men, including you and me!
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#33
If someone believes God is not in control, why pray? How can they know with any level of surety He can answer their prayer?
Well...they pray because they are struggling with it. Their trust is being tested. They are being sifted so their trust, which is their most precious possession, will come out pure, all of the slag gone.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#34
Well...they pray because they are struggling with it. Their trust is being tested. They are being sifted so their trust, which is their most precious possession, will come out pure, all of the slag gone.
I pray because I know that God hears me and will help me with any situation, trouble that I may have - I trust that he is my refuge in times of trouble. Not struggling with a thing . . . actually I live quite peaceably and I believe it is because my trust in Him is so great. I have no trouble praying - pray every morning and I know in whom I place my trust and I am persuaded that He will take care of my every need.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#35
I pray because I know that God hears me and will help me with any situation, trouble that I may have - I trust that he is my refuge in times of trouble. Not struggling with a thing . . . actually I live quite peaceably and I believe it is because my trust in Him is so great. I have no trouble praying - pray every morning and I know in whom I place my trust and I am persuaded that He will take care of my every need.
His question, which I attempted to answer, was: why pray if you don't think God is in control over the evil that is allowed to touch upon you?

So you can see that his mind works a little like mine, where he maybe wouldn't be able to trust someone who wasn't in complete control. I think control freaks need to know God really is in control before they can fully trust even in circumstances that they find odious.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#36
I think you need to define what you mean by "complete control"?
His question, which I attempted to answer, was: why pray if you don't think God is in control over the evil that is allowed to touch upon you?

So you can see that his mind works a little like mine, where he maybe wouldn't be able to trust someone who wasn't in complete control. I think control freaks need to know God really is in control before they can fully trust even in circumstances that they find odious.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#38
I think you need to define what you mean by "complete control"?
Hmm...by complete control I mean that I needed to know, before I could fully trust Him, even in the most awful circumstances, that I am not just being buffeted by events or persons that He has no control whatsoever over and that He really DOES guide my every step as scripture says.

I needed to know that if some great hardship or evil befell me, that He had permitted it and so I could trust Him and didn't have to be fearful, anxious or worried, because He would never allow anything to touch me unless He was working for my good and to bless me and for the good of those around me and to bless them.

I think some read that God gives permission to satan to buffet Job or permission to satan to sift peter like wheat, and they can't trust a God who would permit those things. Then there are others like me who will accept literally anything that happens to them, but only because they know that God is working His will and that the evil won't overcome Him.
 
M

Miri

Guest
#39
I didn’t see the last thread referred to. Here are my thoughts though.

God is good, full stop.

Satan is evil, full stop.


God could have wiped out Adam and Eve when they sinned but God is also love. Full stop.
He also cannot deny Himself or just cause havic by going against His own laws because He
is also just.

God created Adam and Eve to have choices, He wanted people who were willing to walk
in fellowship with Him. Not robots or slaves.

As a result of the fall the whole created universe as we know it (and those parts we don’t
know) has become corrupted, spoilt etc. Like when you bake a cake and it sinks in the
middle. It’s not want you intended but you can discard the entire cake or make something
of what you have left. A very very bad picture I know but if we are capable of trying to
make good of a bad situation, how much more is God willing and able out of love for us
mere humans, to continue to contend with us.


This word contend is very important, here are a few other verses with the similar
meaning.

Isaiah 49:25 NKJV
[25] But thus says the LORD: "Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away,
And the prey of the terrible be delivered; For I will contend with him who contends
with you, And I will save your children.



Genesis 6:3 NKJV
[3] And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for
he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."




Revelation 6:9-11 NKJV
[9] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those
who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they
held. [10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord,
holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell
on the earth?" [11] Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it
was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the
number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as
they were, was completed.




This is how I see it, God contends with us, puts up with us. He puts up with a
fallen sinful world out of love for His creation and we are at the pinnicle of
creation.

If God stooped all evil then He would in effect be bringing the world to an end.
It’s out of His grace and love that He doesn’t say. “Right that’s it I’ve had enough
with you all.”

Instead a way to reconcile mankind was formed, through the death and
resurrection of Jesus. But even despite that God still hasn’t brought an end to
the world and to evil. Why? Well because there are many more still to be saved.


So in one sense God’s hands are tied until just the right time. He cannot bring an
end to evil or the world will end. Satan is the one who is hell bent on taking as
many as he can. Satan seeks to destroy he goes around like a roaring lion.
I’ve seen that in a dream and it’s scary stuff, very scary. Satan it utter evil more
than we can ever comprehend.

For the time being evil seems to prevail, but even though God cannot yet bring evil
to an end. God does reign it in to some degree, to prevent utter destruction.

I bet there are lots of things we have all been kept from, or kept away from us and we have
no idea. Maybe some of you have some examples you can think of. I know I can!

Like when I was a teen and use to do a lot of cycling, I’ve had a few near misses.
Was that just a coincidence, or was that God’s restraining hand preventing my
destruction?

At just the right time when Jesus returns there will be an end to evil. But not just yet
as there are more sheep to add to the flock. Some maybe not yet born!

So in the meantime God must allow the wheat and tares to live together in the
same field. He must let us live our our lives on planet earth with all its chaos, sin
and corruption, sickness and death.

We can do our part too, by praying, believing, sowing that seed, learning.
Understanding that God is good. But the enemy seeks to destroy.

We are to be in this world but not of it. Being in it means we get the horrible
stuff too.

I use to wonder why God didnt just take all Christians to be with Him once they
were born again. Then I realised that there would be no light in this world, none
to seek the lost, none to spread the gospel.

God reigns in evil and puts certain limits on it - Satan etc. But He cannot stop it
entirely until Jesus returns. For our sake He cannot stop it just yet. Just like for
Adam and Eves sake, God didnt toss the universe into the bin and start over.

Anyway thats my two pennies worth. Lol
(I think Americans call it two cents worth).
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#40
His question, which I attempted to answer, was: why pray if you don't think God is in control over the evil that is allowed to touch upon you?

So you can see that his mind works a little like mine, where he maybe wouldn't be able to trust someone who wasn't in complete control. I think control freaks need to know God really is in control before they can fully trust even in circumstances that they find odious.
It's easy for me to pray because I know where the evil comes from . . . I trust because I know where the evil comes from. I stay alert and watchful, aware of evil's methods and I hopefully, to the best of my ability, I keep myself within the full armor of God to avoid the firey darts of the wicked . . . Yes, the firey darts of the wicked NOT any evil that God "allows" to touch me. God "allowing" evil to touch me is God orchestrating with Satan to perform evil. As scripture says - there is no darkness in God at all - evil is darkness and I guess that's why I believe the way I do. :)


 
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